[BREWMASTER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Dakiri]

Most high level monks (on discord and peakofserenity) rank crit as our top stat with our tier set. It does an insane amount of extra healing. Haste is useless past 14%, there isn't much magic damage this tier so vers isn't amazing, and mastery is pretty good, but crit is king.

[Tech614]

Ok I tried different tank on KJ hero yesterday:

Monk Damage: 190M / DTPS: 493K
War prot: 130M / DTPS: 317 K
Druid Tank: 160M / DTPS: 363 K

Healer complained with my monk a lot I used Damped harm + HT + Jewel lost abey / Prydaz ( I have no better as 2nd legendary)

Sounds like you weren't banking 2 purifies for the 4th and 5th stacks.

You can't just sit there eating the entire stagger. This isn't nighthold anymore where you don't even need to have purifying brew on your bars outside of spellblade.

Purifying at 4 and 5(or 3 and 5 even) will make you take far less damage then a druid on this fight. I know because my co tank is a druid, who is very solid. Not sure about war.

[ReD-EyeD]

Most high level monks (on discord and peakofserenity) rank crit as our top stat with our tier set. It does an insane amount of extra healing. Haste is useless past 14%, there isn't much magic damage this tier so vers isn't amazing, and mastery is pretty good, but crit is king.

Still not buying it. First it's 40% chance on brew, then its ~45% chance to proc celestial fortune, then you hope for it to proc bigger orb, then you have to use all your stacks at once because you can't control the amount.
I don't know if there are some specific reasons besides the general use, but most of the time it's enough for a good chunk of heal on critical occasions.

Versatility works for both magic and physical damage and as we can't dodge a lot of important physical stuff (like kiljaeden claws or his comet) it doesnt even matter if it's physical or magical. It also increases our damage AND our heal from the orbs/set/first talent row.

Mastery feels inconsistent enough. Doesn't work on magic, doesn't work on special attacks (Eels on 4th boss is an example) etc

Well, they're probably right, but I would need a strong math to believe it myself.

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Purifying at 4 and 5(or 3 and 5 even) will make you take far less damage then a druid on this fight. I know because my co tank is a druid, who is very solid. Not sure about war.

War is pretty easy. You just spam Ignore Pain between attacks and rotate Demo Shout (with reduced cooldown).

[dileria]

Im trying and im simply not suceeding.
Can someone pls explain me the Brewmaster Rotation. KS - BOS - RJW - TP - BOS - TP - BOF - ....
This Spec has no Procs at all but those cooldowns overlap so often... >.<
Example :
1. i just used BOS , KS came off cooldown... Do i use the Blackout Combo buff for TP and delay KS for a second or do i "waste" my Combo Buff fos KS and use a normal TP
2. BOF and RJW are coming off cooldown... So many options now ... >.> BOS-RJW-BOF-BOS ... OR...BOS-TP-RJW-BOF-BOS... OR ... BOS-TP-RJW-BOS-TP-BOF-BOS.... As i see it i am forced to delay sth one way or the other, But what is the best to delay :?

I was looking at Simcraft's Sample Sequence Table. BOF was used at the 41th second in this sequence, although its one of the highest DMG per Execute Spell ... I'm confused^^
A simple KS-BOS-Tp-Filler-BOS-TP-Filler is not enough. As i mentioned already, we have no procs. Shouldn't we all use the same castsequences? (+- a few open GCD / TP's depending on the individual haste levels)

i need someone smarter than me to enlighten me ^^ - please :P

[Dakiri]

KS>BoS>TP>BoF/wait>BoS>TP>RJW>Repeat

You have it basically right above, that should be fine. You can move around the BoF/wait/RJW parts a bit, it's not a big deal for raiding, although it makes a minor difference for like trash packs in dungeons.

What is your haste? If you have under 14% (so your Keg Smash has at least a 7 sec cd) and you hit each button perfectly then the above will work and you won't run into issues. You have 6 gcds to fill between each KS, and you have a gcd to fill in between BoS/TP combos. You're right that it's a totally static and predictable rotation, so you should be able to repeat it perfectly without issues. You really shouldn't have either of the examples you mentioned happen. If you just used BoS then KS should be at least 2 seconds away from coming off cooldown - so you skipped some GCDs and messed it up somewhere. If both BoF and RJW are coming off cooldown that's fine, you have 2 gcds to fill each cycle so you just get used to using 1, doing a BoS/TP, and then using the other.

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Still not buying it. First it's 40% chance on brew, then its ~45% chance to proc celestial fortune, then you hope for it to proc bigger orb, then you have to use all your stacks at once because you can't control the amount.
I don't know if there are some specific reasons besides the general use, but most of the time it's enough for a good chunk of heal on critical occasions.

Versatility works for both magic and physical damage and as we can't dodge a lot of important physical stuff (like kiljaeden claws or his comet) it doesnt even matter if it's physical or magical. It also increases our damage AND our heal from the orbs/set/first talent row.

Mastery feels inconsistent enough. Doesn't work on magic, doesn't work on special attacks (Eels on 4th boss is an example) etc

Well, they're probably right, but I would need a strong math to believe it myself.

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War is pretty easy. You just spam Ignore Pain between attacks and rotate Demo Shout (with reduced cooldown).

Crit also increases the amount of healing everyone else does to you, which versatility doesn't do, which makes up some of the gap for raiding. I think the gaps are really small - a 920 piece with anything is better than a 910 with anything (unless you end up swimming in haste). Crit does have the added benefit of making you look great on both the healing and damage charts - my cotank on sisters last night had a cool strategy where i did 70% of the tanking and he also let me stack up to 5 in the last phase, which helped me do 270k HPS, which was fun.

[PinDrop]

With the standard rotation and low haste, you will see that your Blackout Strike comes off cooldown at the same time as (or a little bit before) Keg Smash, you just have to get used to waiting that little bit to use Keg Smash. At 14% haste this delay is gone, but they will come off CD at the same time, just prioritize Keg Smash and you'll be fine.

[keqe]

Mastery feels inconsistent enough. Doesn't work on magic, doesn't work on special attacks (Eels on 4th boss is an example) etc

Works just fine for eels. They generate and use stacks as any melee attack would.

[ReD-EyeD]

Works just fine for eels. They generate and use stacks as any melee attack would.

Its good then. Was confusing as they were doing shadow damage instead.

[Tech614]

Its good then. Was confusing as they were doing shadow damage instead.

They do shadow damage so you don't kill the raid when you pick them up with curse on you...

[keqe]

They do shadow damage so you don't kill the raid when you pick them up with curse on you...

I don't know if it is side effect of them fixing stagger for the debuff but only boss melee procs the debuff. You can take tornados or hydra shots which are both physical and it won't do raid damage.

Though them doing shadow damage was intended for it when it mattered.

[ReD-EyeD]

They do shadow damage so you don't kill the raid when you pick them up with curse on you...

Well, obviously. This is why I thought that they also don't proc mastery.

[Tech614]

Well, obviously. This is why I thought that they also don't proc mastery.

Why wouldn't they?

It's still melee swings.

It's like thinking you can't dodge a HDHs white attacks when they have chaos blades up...

[ReD-EyeD]

Why wouldn't they?

It's still melee swings.

It's like thinking you can't dodge a HDHs white attacks when they have chaos blades up...

Dude, there is a lot of non-obvious stuff in this game. "Why is it physical, but ignoring armor?", "Why druid active mitigation works on these attacks, but you can't block with shields?" and etc
Even Kiljaeden burning claws is confusing at first. It's a melee swing, but it doesnt get blocked or dodged. Ok, it's a technically cleave, but it also ignores avoidance stat. Ok, it's a focused cleave, but it ignores avoidance of nearby target. There are so much exceptions around.

[Gorsameth]

Slight correction. You can actually block Fel Claws on KJ. which is why warriors are really good on that fight (they can also block the meteors)

[porubezhnik]

Slight correction. You can actually block Fel Claws on KJ. which is why warriors are really good on that fight (they can also block the meteors)

And BrM can stagger FC & Meteor also, stagger is better than even critical block

[ReD-EyeD]

And BrM can stagger FC & Meteor also, stagger is better than even critical block

You can't compare these things. Yes, pure stagger is better than block, but warriors still have many cooldowns which can be used for every switch, 2mil+ ignore pains between swings and much bigger armor.

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Slight correction. You can actually block Fel Claws on KJ. which is why warriors are really good on that fight (they can also block the meteors)

That would explain why I received noticeably much less damage from meteors on my warrior.

[Veiled Shadow]

It's like thinking you can't dodge a HDHs white attacks when they have chaos blades up...

You actually can't dodge a havoc DH's attacks during Chaos Blades; each instance of the melee attack is treated as a spell cast. A better analogy might be the adds on Imperator or something that melee'd for arcane damage and were still susceptible to the usual avoidance rolls.

[Xequecal]

Most high level monks (on discord and peakofserenity) rank crit as our top stat with our tier set. It does an insane amount of extra healing. Haste is useless past 14%, there isn't much magic damage this tier so vers isn't amazing, and mastery is pretty good, but crit is king.

Versatility improves self-heals by more than crit does. 1% Versatility increases self healing by 1% and reduces damage taken by 0.5%, making the heal ~1.51% more effective overall. 1% crit gives a 1% chance to heal for 150% and an independent 1% chance to heal for 165%, which is only a 1.5% increase in healing. Also, the damage reduction part of versatility has exponential returns as you get more of it, crit has diminishing returns.

Of course, crit increases external heals by a lot more than versatility does, but if your argument is crit is best because of T20 and ox orbs, then versatility is even better.

[Khiyone]

Versatility improves self-heals by more than crit does. 1% Versatility increases self healing by 1% and reduces damage taken by 0.5%, making the heal ~1.51% more effective overall. 1% crit gives a 1% chance to heal for 150% and an independent 1% chance to heal for 165%, which is only a 1.5% increase in healing. Also, the damage reduction part of versatility has exponential returns as you get more of it, crit has diminishing returns.

Of course, crit increases external heals by a lot more than versatility does, but if your argument is crit is best because of T20 and ox orbs, then versatility is even better.

The appropriate comparison is 1.1875% crit against 1% versatility, not 1% crit against 1% vers.

Also, crits are a 100% increase in healing, not 50%, so the expected healing increase from critical healing itself is 100*0.99 + 200*0.01 = 1% going from zero to 1% crit.
Adding Celestial Fortune to this gives 1.65*101*0.01 + 101*0.99 = 1.6565% increased healing; and scaling to the appropriate amount to match 1% vers gives 1.967% increased healing. I didn't bother to do this calculation for vers but that's a lot better than 1.51%. . .

Edit: By the way, the returns from versatility, even at very high amounts of vers (like 20%) are barely better than quadratic scaling (1 + 0.2 + 0.2^2 = 1.24, 1/0.8 = 1.25) - given that crit starts out being like 30% better per point, the diminishing returns don't really cause a shift in the relative value.

[Xequecal]

The appropriate comparison is 1.1875% crit against 1% versatility, not 1% crit against 1% vers.

Also, crits are a 100% increase in healing, not 50%, so the expected healing increase from critical healing itself is 100*0.99 + 200*0.01 = 1% going from zero to 1% crit.
Adding Celestial Fortune to this gives 1.65*101*0.01 + 101*0.99 = 1.6565% increased healing; and scaling to the appropriate amount to match 1% vers gives 1.967% increased healing. I didn't bother to do this calculation for vers but that's a lot better than 1.51%. . .

Edit: By the way, the returns from versatility, even at very high amounts of vers (like 20%) are barely better than quadratic scaling (1 + 0.2 + 0.2^2 = 1.24, 1/0.8 = 1.25) - given that crit starts out being like 30% better per point, the diminishing returns don't really cause a shift in the relative value.

Crit heals are double? I thought they were only 150%.