1. #4281
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    Maybe you don't realize, but this is comical compared to 90+ seconds of tunneling for Breath of Sindragosa. This is that echo chamber shit the devs accuse us of whenever we complain.
    Yeah, I mean, we only have 6 dead talents, and that's ignoring the utility tiers. They hate dead talents, they said. Lol.

  2. #4282
    Every spec has a ton of dead talents, you just need to look at all the red Xs on IcyVeins to confirm. Two in the final row is a bit egregious, yes, but again, Feral and FDK suffer from this too (although some people insist on running Brutal Slash/Glacial Advance anyway, not unlike Divine Purpose). And I actually don't even think the proposed change fixes that, it just changes which talents are dead. They're just crapping these out first because those specs are in an equally bad place and they don't actually have to do any work to half-ass repair them.

    Ret is much harder because of how rigidly the tree and, indeed, the spec itself are designed. They can't shuffle anything in or out of the Blade of Justice or Crusader Strike row, only adjust numbers (although I guess they could start by reverting Divine Hammer). They're terrified of buffing Execution Sentence for reasons that only make sense in their own minds, but they can't nerf Final Verdict because it's at or below the target percentage range already. They have to invent a whole new ability or passive to replace Holy Wrath. Divine Purpose will never get a buff as long as it's on the class ring, and they pretty much already refused to even before it was implemented. Crusade will only be nerfed, which is laughable because after another 0.5%/stack nerf it will need 3xWotA relic to be better than base wings, so that will also need a redesign.
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  3. #4283
    They dont have to come up with new things.
    They can easily take out of previous talents and spells...
    Anciant king can replace Holy Wrath, Hammer of Wrath can replace Virtues blade, Seals or something like it can replace Greater judgement, and they can revive Seraphim and/Inquisition in a manner of bhffing us somehow (allthough i personally hate those 2 skills).

    They can do all kinds of stuff to lift us out of the shitty hole they threw us into this expansion... But.. They just dont wanna...


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  4. #4284
    Quote Originally Posted by CptKnusper View Post
    yes go and play with DP you will start to compete with tanks. Forst non BoS specc still stronger than ret non crusade specc

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    I'm probably behind the times, but am I missing why Zeal is good now over Fires? Unless it's like for cleaving, but why would you take it on single target fights like Goroth and not aoe-centric fights like Mistress then, and you wouldn't even get it to work on Inquisition most of the time since they're not tanked together? Zeal feels so much slower to me too, unless you have a lot of haste I guess (my luck sucks, so my haste is sadly pretty low on my gear).

  5. #4285
    With the new set bonus and relative procs of BoW you are unlikely to be spending many gcds on either Zeal or CS, so might as well take the more poweefull one.
    I personally barely spend the second charge of Zeal on Goroth most of the fight. When i sometimes do, i overcap Hp... And thats my bad
    Last edited by killwithpwr; 2017-07-18 at 06:00 AM.


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  6. #4286
    Quote Originally Posted by xezar View Post
    I'm probably behind the times, but am I missing why Zeal is good now over Fires? Unless it's like for cleaving, but why would you take it on single target fights like Goroth and not aoe-centric fights like Mistress then, and you wouldn't even get it to work on Inquisition most of the time since they're not tanked together? Zeal feels so much slower to me too, unless you have a lot of haste I guess (my luck sucks, so my haste is sadly pretty low on my gear).
    You only ever take Zeal with BoW, never with DH. With BoW and 4pcT20 you won't have that much downtime, and Zeal hits like 33% harder than CS even on ST. Still use TFoJ with DH though.

  7. #4287
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    Every spec has a ton of dead talents, you just need to look at all the red Xs on IcyVeins to confirm. Two in the final row is a bit egregious, yes, but again, Feral and FDK suffer from this too
    The problem is not just dead talents. The problem is BORING dead talents. Most of our talent choices are just that; boring. Want ST, pick this, want AoE, pick that. The talents have no interactions with each other.
    I mean look at feral. Even before the 7.3 changes, their talents were interesting. Each changed the way the spec worked to some extend. The problem was they were poorly placed and poorly tuned. They have done a great job reshuffling them and it's up to them to tune them right but it is nearly impossible for them not to end up with at least 3-4 viable variations and by the nature of the talents they will definitely end up with different talent configurations being best at different encounters.
    Meanwhile they can try to reshuffle the talents for Frost (or for us, if they DO try) all they want, but the tree will still be dead because the talents are boring. Look at Frost, the only spec that had synergy was BoS because BoS is one of the few interesting talents there. The other interesting talents (Gathering Storm and Frozen Pulse) are now going to be competing and neither of them works properly anyway because Frost has a serious problem with resource management and feast or famine situations; BoS was a solution to that problem while other playstyles exacerbate it. No talent creates synergies for Obliteration or HRW because no talent really helps with Obliterate damage in a meaningful way.
    Of the four throughput tiers in Ret, none are interesting. FV is a boring passive, ES only interacts with Judgment in an annoying way and suffers because it is excluded from all of the scaling in the spec, Consecration doesn't interact with anything. The Crusader Strike tier is just boring (Greater Judgment could be interesting if mastery was not so horrible and if Judge Unworthy hadn't neutered it). Blades of Justice tier is just an encounter type choice (and the former Divine Hammer being stronger than the other talents even in ST was a problem in itself, one of very poor tuning) with one talent trying to find synergy in Crit in a spec that has NO synergy for crit so WTF. And the final tier has DP, Crusade which is OP and Holy Wrath which is a pvp talent.
    There is no synergy here. If you wanted to fix the spec it wouldn't be enough to reshuffle and retune. You'd have to create new talents. Possibly a new mastery. Certainly you'd have to change the super boring Ashbringer traits. They do not seem to be interested in making such changes. At best we can hope for a significant boost to our ST so we can be competitive (a straight up buff to TV and we are done)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by killwithpwr View Post
    They dont have to come up with new things.
    They can easily take out of previous talents and spells...
    Anciant king can replace Holy Wrath, Hammer of Wrath can replace Virtues blade, Seals or something like it can replace Greater judgement, and they can revive Seraphim and/Inquisition in a manner of bhffing us somehow (allthough i personally hate those 2 skills).

    They can do all kinds of stuff to lift us out of the shitty hole they threw us into this expansion... But.. They just dont wanna...
    And without also changing the Ashbringer traits, all those talents will be lost in poor scaling or we will be spending half our time casting spells that are not at all connected to our artifact.

  8. #4288
    I agree with Lum there. However I cannot understand if the community likes crusade or they settle with it cause its the sole option. In my eyes we got 2 dead rows : First tier is dead because of lack of synergy and lazy design. I like conc and es buyt they have 0 synergy with artifact and leggos. If u decide to go conc on bosses then the damage pattern changes so drastically u play another encounter. For example going conc and greater judge on mistress I ended up with 60%+ damage on adds. There is no point there especially that late in the expansion for the rest of the talents to have no interaction with leggos and weap.
    As for Crusade only reason everyone picks it is because it is stronger than the rest. Personally I despise having myself locked for 1/3 of the encounter just to utilize my cd. Is there any point in calling it a cd anyways? And am really done with running brh and myth anomaly till my eyes bleed from spiders and bats and arrows just for a relic that's retarded strong compared to the rest . And all that trouble for the raid team only to ask for low prio on mechanics and even after that for laughable numbers.
    And all this for on of the most pop speccs. We ain't frost dks or spriests. We ain't we monks for crying out loud. If they don't have the resources to rework retribution to feth.
    And I am really sad reading guides and watching interviews and authors/speakers behaving like everything is a minor setback.
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  9. #4289
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    And without also changing the Ashbringer traits, all those talents will be lost in poor scaling or we will be spending half our time casting spells that are not at all connected to our artifact.
    Replacing WoTA trait would be benefitial to us Rets with an overall buff to our dmg.. I wouldnt mind the CS trait getting replaced either... And all the utility ones, allthough i get why we have those crappy traits...


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  10. #4290
    I thought about Holy Wrath replacement talent and one that would work with wings (sadly I know).
    While your Avenging Wrath is active, your holy power generators have a chance to give 1 more holy power and(or) your holy power spenders have a chance to be mimic for 50% dmg. (remember, its this or Crusade, nice synergy with Highlord and cape too)

    I'm on board with WoTA being reworked and our dmg tweaked with it. I have 3 CS relics (rip me) and I flip table every time CS don't crit and I have enough of BRH and DHT, farming it non stop and not having single relic drop (have my fire CS relic 915 since start of NH).
    Last edited by Shavier; 2017-07-18 at 07:04 PM.

  11. #4291
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    No rng please thank you.
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  12. #4292
    Mastery: Divine Judgment Increases Judgment damage by 24%->35%, and causes Judgment to increase damage taken from your Holy Power spenders by 12%->14% for 8 sec. Paladin - Retribution Spec.

    LOL. Just.....LOL. An 11% buff to Judgment and a 2% buff to spenders. Yes I'm sure that'll make everything better. Jesus Christ....I am done.

  13. #4293
    I noticed that other than FDK and Feral, Ret is the only spec to have tuning for PvE in the notes...

    My hopes are coming back...
    Last edited by killwithpwr; 2017-07-18 at 09:59 PM.


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  14. #4294
    The Lightbringer Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    These buffs.
    I am becoming Death, the destroyer of DPS charts.
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  15. #4295
    Quote Originally Posted by killwithpwr View Post
    I noticed that other than FDK and Feral, Ret is the only spec to have tuning for PvE in the notes...

    My hopes are coming back...
    This just looks like a lazy fix to try making mastery better as its a terrible stat. Also the fact that they are bothering with something like this means theres no big changes planned and they think they can just tune their way out of it again (which they always fail at ofc).
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  16. #4296
    Quote Originally Posted by Leefa View Post
    This just looks like a lazy fix to try making mastery better as its a terrible stat. Also the fact that they are bothering with something like this means theres no big changes planned and they think they can just tune their way out of it again (which they always fail at ofc).
    Not to mention that it's too little too late once the PTR stuff actually hits live...and on top of that it fucks our gear over if master becomes a valued stat at the same time.
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  17. #4297
    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato88 View Post
    Mastery: Divine Judgment Increases Judgment damage by 24%->35%, and causes Judgment to increase damage taken from your Holy Power spenders by 12%->14% for 8 sec. Paladin - Retribution Spec.

    LOL. Just.....LOL. An 11% buff to Judgment and a 2% buff to spenders. Yes I'm sure that'll make everything better. Jesus Christ....I am done.

    Actually that's around ~2-3% damage buff overall. If that were to be hotfixed we would be middle of the pack instead of bottom of the barrel. So its quite good. They are never gonna fix the Mastery mid expansion, this is the closest you are gonna get for it.

  18. #4298
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    So the ScrubBusters squad and Solsacra jumped into the Ret Discord and they "formulated" the new formulas:

    Old Mastery formula (for HP spenders): (x/400+8)*1.5
    New: (x/400+8)*1.5
    Judgment part new formula: (x/400+8)*4.375

    X being your mastery

    At my current mastery value, this increases the Judgment part by 28% and the spender part by 5%

    Edit: Logged onto the PTR to confirm this, it seems this is true.
    Last edited by DrMcNinja; 2017-07-18 at 11:26 PM.
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  19. #4299
    Quote Originally Posted by DrMcNinja View Post
    So the ScrubBusters squad and Solsacra jumped into the Ret Discord and they "formulated" the new formulas:

    Old Mastery formula (for HP spenders): (x/400+8)*1.5
    New: (x/400+8)*1.5
    Judgment part new formula: (x/400+8)*4.375

    X being your mastery

    At my current mastery value, this increases the Judgment part by 28% and the spender part by 5%

    Edit: Logged onto the PTR to confirm this, it seems this is true.
    They needed to buff it by 40% for it to be on par i heard.

    I hate these wishy washy buffs tiny buffs, but at least it makes mastery a bit better.

    This might actually be a buff to the highlord ring aswell as it buffs TV/DS making those procs more valuable.

  20. #4300
    Quote Originally Posted by PointerToAddress View Post
    If that were to be hotfixed we would be middle of the pack instead of bottom of the barrel. So its quite good.
    If they hotfixed sure...seeing as they more than likely won't it will have no impact on the inevitable ask from my guild that I gear my rogue up for Avatar/KJ.
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