[7.0 Retribution Paladin] Guide and Discussion

[Ulthane]

They will not do anything to change Ret except number tuning. Mechanical changes won't happen until the next .5 patch. They are working on whatever needs to be done to deliver the next content. They are not gonna take resources away from other tasks to fix Ret. The .5 patches are when those resources can be alocated to it. Until then nothing will be done.

And sadly nothing was done this .5 patch also

[Sigxy]

So how do you guys feel about their idea of nerfing Crusade and buffing the spec overall? "I think we aim for talents to be more in the ballpark of 5-8% throughput, rather than the ~15%+ Crusade is." "Instead, we're more likely to tune down the damage bonus of Crusade and significantly buff the spec to compensate."

I know those numbers are not final, but if it was 5-8%, it would feel kinda useless to use Crusade as a talent. Oh! and:

"I think we can all see how the idea of Holy Wrath could be cool, but hasn't worked out in practice after necessary iterations. Don't have much to say on future plans, but those would be our thoughts on the talent."

Expecting to see this talent to stick around until next expansion at least.

[Deleted]

So how do you guys feel about their idea of nerfing Crusade and buffing the spec overall? "I think we aim for talents to be more in the ballpark of 5-8% throughput, rather than the ~15%+ Crusade is." "Instead, we're more likely to tune down the damage bonus of Crusade and significantly buff the spec to compensate."

I know those numbers are not final, but if it was 5-8%, it would feel kinda useless to use Crusade as a talent. Oh! and:

"I think we can all see how the idea of Holy Wrath could be cool, but hasn't worked out in practice after necessary iterations. Don't have much to say on future plans, but those would be our thoughts on the talent."

Expecting to see this talent to stick around until next expansion at least.

It's pretty likely. My reaction to the holy wrath statement was: Yeah! We told you that since day one on the beta! Thanks for wasting our time!

As for Crusade... where is that guy that is gonna accuse us of having brokered the wrong deal with Blizz and it's all our fault? :P

Quite honestly, it makes sense. But since last time they short changed us, i'm not brokering anything. They will do it anyways sooner or later.

[Neldarie]

There was nothing wrong with crusade ever and their idiotic excuse for stating otherwise "we don't like how ret does damage" is just idiocy and hypocracy squared (check other specs and wonder).

There is a problem with Retribution passive however, esp how it double dips with crusade...

No point stating the obvious tho; because Blizztard has always and will always be biased and 2faced towards Retribution as a spec. History does not lie.

[Temna]

There was nothing wrong with crusade ever and their idiotic excuse for stating otherwise "we don't like how ret does damage" is just idiocy and hypocracy squared (check other specs and wonder).

There is a problem with Retribution passive however, esp how it double dips with crusade...

No point stating the obvious tho; because Blizztard has always and will always be biased and 2faced towards Retribution as a spec. History does not lie.

I can argue that Crusade is a bad talent because of the sheer overwhelming power of it to the point where it warps the values off all thing associated with it in unhealthy ways. Right now we are so integrally tied to Crusade that touching it right now for will cause the spec to collapse on itself, so in that vein its a very unhealthy talent.

As for "we dont like how ret does damage" I think there can be a discussion there and might be warranted. Do we still want to be tied to burst meta? and if so, hwo can the period between wings be made more meaningful? etc. Its a conversation worth having I feel.

[Deleted]

just give me back t17 weaving and take crusade away and im happy

[killwithpwr]

Stupidist questions ever... Who cares how your 3 second speed buff is pixalised? Its still a horse... Do people actually go out of their way to pop DS and just stand in place looking at their ugly horsy?

Shield of Vengance may not be the best spell... Defensive or offensive. But in ToS there are many instances where you can benefit the offensive part while using it defensively... Like on KJ's adds...

Shitty questions, evasive answers on the not bad ones....

Way to go Ret development team...

[Ulthane]

Visuals are incredibly important to many people so yes, a lot of people care
__________


This idea that Crusade is a problem and should be nerfed with the rest of the spec buffed is just silly. Crusade is not a problem in a vacuum, it's a problem because of Crusade+Liadrin's Fury Unleashed+Chain of Thrayn+3 Wrath of the Ashbringer Relics+Convergeance of Fates all feed into each other. I continue to think the best solution would be to simply make the entire row offer different options on modifying Avenging Wrath, moving DP somewhere else in a row that has nothing interesting to offer and killing Holy Wrath but it's obvious that will never happen.

Which begs the thought: We need an overhaul. They screwed up with this design. Scrap it, redo it.

[Burgerberg]

Visuals are incredibly important to many people so yes, a lot of people care

A visual of a frickin' horse on a 40 sec cooldown is not "incredibly important", especially compared with the actual competitiveness and class design of ret.

The fact that Blizzard would address such trivial questions instead of ones that are actually important, shows precisely where their mindset is and how whoever is in charge of ret is clueless. I mean, they just justified the retribution passive based on class fantasy, but not bothering to address the negative impact it has on raids and how utterly useless it is once you have competent people in your raid.

[Burgerberg]

Or you know, it shows it's an easy question to answer so they picked it. It also shows you love histrionics I guess.

The point is that they're not really entertaining much of an idea to make fundamental changes that would actually make the spec competitive. Instead, they see Holy Wrath as "cool" and will not change/replace it to something actually useful.

[Deleted]

I cannot see how crusade is op when our burst is not nearly top. If it were op we would be topping during first 40 secs of a fight or at least on damage swaps on encounters and we clearly dont.
What is more nerfing Crusade even more would make it stupid as it has a fairly long ramp up time (10-12 secs with lucky procs to reach potential and then become a burst for the remaining 25 secs effectively missing some of our pots etc is not an effective burst).
It is op compared to the rest of the options in that tier which is far from calling it op in general.
I am really impressed by the devs lack of understanding of the problems this specc has at the moment and on top of that they do not want to invest time dealing with them , their only intention is to tune the numbers a bit.
We are again and again officially screwed this expansion and i am afraid coming one as well.

[Ianus]

I cannot see how crusade is op when our burst is not nearly top. If it were op we would be topping during first 40 secs of a fight or at least on damage swaps on encounters and we clearly dont.
What is more nerfing Crusade even more would make it stupid as it has a fairly long ramp up time (10-12 secs with lucky procs to reach potential and then become a burst for the remaining 25 secs effectively missing some of our pots etc is not an effective burst).
It is op compared to the rest of the options in that tier which is far from calling it op in general.
I am really impressed by the devs lack of understanding of the problems this specc has at the moment and on top of that they do not want to invest time dealing with them , their only intention is to tune the numbers a bit.
We are again and again officially screwed this expansion and i am afraid coming one as well.

crusade is not op but imbalanced and i totally support nerf to it if it bring up our sustained dmg.. i dont wanna feel like god 2 mins and then 2 mins like shit.. i dont want to get bipolar disorder

[Deleted]

The point is that they're not really entertaining much of an idea to make fundamental changes that would actually make the spec competitive. Instead, they see Holy Wrath as "cool" and will not change/replace it to something actually useful.

That's not what they said. They admited they wasted our time with it and have currently not debated what to replace it with or when.

[Deleted]

crusade is not op but imbalanced and i totally support nerf to it if it bring up our sustained dmg.. i dont wanna feel like god 2 mins and then 2 mins like shit.. i dont want to get bipolar disorder

Imbalanced when compared with what?
Because if we compare ret output during crusade to the rest of the dps specs i would find it fairly middle of the pack or among 5 best even with appropriate leggos relics tuning of toon.
Calling our only viable dragonslaying talent imbalanced is not reflecting to reality. (oh dont forget to take into account the rng, "rewarding bonus" leggos that according to devs are not supposed to affect our talent choices etc).

Btw looking at the number of parses it is really really sad how much time and effort is spent towards one of the most popular dps speccs ingame NOT.

[Sigxy]

That's not what they said. They admited they wasted our time with it and have currently not debated what to replace it with or when.

What makes it more sad, is that I brought up not too long ago that they had no issues replacing one of the level 100 talents for Affliction. Instead of placing down a soul mirror and nuke that thing, they changed it so a bunch of abilities did more damage to targets with less than 30% of their max health.

[Ianus]

Imbalanced when compared with what?
Because if we compare ret output during crusade to the rest of the dps specs i would find it fairly middle of the pack or among 5 best even with appropriate leggos relics tuning of toon.
Calling our only viable dragonslaying talent imbalanced is not reflecting to reality. (oh dont forget to take into account the rng, "rewarding bonus" leggos that according to devs are not supposed to affect our talent choices etc).

Btw looking at the number of parses it is really really sad how much time and effort is spent towards one of the most popular dps speccs ingame NOT.

imbalanced as is said as feel i have bipolar disorder where ever use or not use crusade..if i have to be mid pack i would rather be sustained dps that doesnt depend on 1 cd ..

[Anardel]

Your last sentence shows that crusade IS clearly the problem.

What would be the problem with tuning down crusade and offsetting that with an across-the-board buff? People like me could finally choose DP over crusade. I don't see a problem tbh.

In fact, the problem is not Crusade. The problem is Blizzard's bad design.
So yes Blizz devs created 'Crusade', fun talent and such. But then, instead leaving it lasts like 30 seconds and left it alone, they put a nerf on duration and create an artifact trait buffing it. And because is a trait, then they created relics that extend that buff more.

And then after that, they create legendaries but did they use imaginative, different type of leggos affecting Judgement, VT or such? NO! They created the ring that gives more burst in the burst. And suddenly they programmed the belt which gives more burst in the burst!

Now they say to us that is OUR fault to use ret paladin in such a way. "Hey! I don't like the way you play, throwing all your stats, trait relics, leggos etc to Crusade!" ... And I need to say "that's because you designed us to do so, amirite?"

I find frustrating the devs and some players saying ret is bad because is our fault, like we wanted to throw all our char into Crusade and that Crusade is a problem, when it's Blizzard devs creating stupid sinergies with traits, relics, legendaries and trinkets with Crusade.

[Leefa]

Reducing the effect of Crusade and buffing baseline abilities is rocket science guys. Its really hard to do.

Also this hurts my eyes: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2032
You could litterally buff us by ~10% and we'd only make it into top 10 specs (top ~12 if you look at higher percentile) lol.

Fucking glad I dont take this game seriously anymore, I'd be mad as fuck right now if I did.

[Dugna]

Reducing the effect of Crusade and buffing baseline abilities is rocket science guys. Its really hard to do.

Also this hurts my eyes: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2032
You could litterally buff us by ~10% and we'd only make it into top 10 specs (top ~12 if you look at higher percentile) lol.

Fucking glad I dont take this game seriously anymore, I'd be mad as fuck right now if I did.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#boss=2038 Fallen Avatar is even worse.

[Redblade]

imbalanced as is said as feel i have bipolar disorder where ever use or not use crusade..if i have to be mid pack i would rather be sustained dps that doesnt depend on 1 cd ..

Same here, being tied to a single CD is horrible in any fight where you have to hold it to line up or if it's just coming off CD when the boss dies. Bring back the AW with multiple charges we had in HFC, that was perfect.