Poll: Should ML be an option

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  1. #21
    I am Murloc! Kuja's Avatar
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    Nope. I've had to leave so many pugs because looting rules weren't made clear even after asking. It's so fishy! And reserving loot is even worse.

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  2. #22
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    honestly i'm not so sure.

    Sure the occasional ninjalooter is annoying,but usually you can see the signs and leave the group anyways.

    But this new system? Even my guildies are already going "hey do you need that item can i have it?" and it's only been a week. THere is going to be beggars all over the place, and a lot of them wont be very nice about it, saying you don't need an item for xyz reason, being rude about it, etc. will get old fast.
    Then on the other hand you will have nice people asking for loot who then get stonewalled because of peoples bad experiences with beggars, or people who will want money/pets in return for a item, or will just say "it's worth 10g for me to vendor it, so fu".
    Heck remember back in the dragon soul days, at the end of the run there would always be people selling their loot.

    I honestly don't know but i can see this new system backfiring in pugs too.
    If your guildies does so, then it is bad management and spirit. We offer out pieces if we don't need them, you don't ask for them.

    As for beggars, you already have them before.

    And people don't like to leave a raid to know they've been cheated of what they actually joined for. Experienced it a few times, an ML would go to the body and suddenly the chat would be spammed with looted items, people would ask for it to be rolled, without anything.. People then turn sour, and hostile.

    And the 'selling' of loot was bullshit, that is what ML does now. You have 'Lootsale runs' or 'purchase loot at the end for XXXX amount of gold'.

    If all comes to, it should be PUGS that should have a locked down loot option without player control.
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  3. #23
    Mechagnome Indigenously Abled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kot0005 View Post
    9999th thread about masterloot. You must be a ninja looter.
    Anyone who prefers master loot must bee a ninja looter.
    Thanks for the ad-hominem; it supports your inability to support your argument.

  4. #24
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    For friends who regularly raid together but aren't necessarily part of the same guild, I think there need to be ML allowances made. Perhaps guild alliances would help there.

    For pugs, absolutely no.

  5. #25
    Master looter should not be limited to guild groups. Why? Player choice, the free will to chose which route you will take.

    The problem with most peoples opinion of master looting is in the raidfinder tool, where people make their own groups, but because they can choose from a pool of players consisting of entire regions, you do not care about the other people, chances are the vast majority of the people you have ever been in a group with through the raidfinder tool you have never seen again. Because of this, most people treat the raidfinder like they treat LFR or any other "queue up" content.

    People want rewards, but they don't want to do any work for it, and believe it or not, creating a PuG to clear challenging content takes A LOT of effort. And lets be fair, if the raidleader wants to reserve some gear (or all of it) then that is his right to do so. Obviously reserving a lot of gear can be detrimental to your group, people don't want to join a group with a bunch of gear reserved. With that said, there is also enough class/roll combos available to where you could have 1 conquerer and still have a healthy mix of classes.

    Now, I haven't been making PUGs this expansion, but I have done so a lot in the past, and the loot system I always used was master looting. Now, depending on which type of raid I was doing, the loot rules could change.
    If we were doing something like VoA, the first few bosses of some easy raid. Straight up master loot.
    Now, if it was something harder, I would generally go with the loot system of "+1", a loot system that requires master loot, the rules of it is simple, you roll for every item, and whenever you get one, you get a +1 to your item count. Next time an item drops, you roll like normal and the person with the lowest +X amount and the highest roll wins the item. This is not a system I can do anymore.


    At the end of the day, what I want is player choice, people need to treat the raidfinder tool as a social media for organizing groups, not a queue you can sign up to so you can get your raids done. It is just a matter of fixing the loot rule requirement. Once you setup a group in the group finder, you need to declare loot rules, and if you change the loot rules after the fact, then everyone in the raid should be notified and giving the choice to leave the group immediately.
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  6. #26
    I don't consider "player choice" to be a good argument, as if this is some sort of philosophical issue of freedom.

    The "freedom" to join a master looter pug over a PL one? Why would I want that?
    I don't want the freedom to shoot myself in the foot in a video game. I don't ninja loot, so I'm happy with the change. Tonnes of people DO and WOULD ninja loot, so those who don't are happy to no longer have to deal with "XYZ reserved" and "first BoE reserved" BS.

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  7. #27
    The Lightbringer Lady Atia's Avatar
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    No. No one needs ninjas or people who reserve stuff in rnd pugs.

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  8. #28
    If you don't like ML, create your own group and stop complaining.

    Always funny to hear those casual players who never create groups and want other people to create a group based on their needs.

  9. #29
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    I´m raiding with a group of friends and we´re from different guilds.
    With this shitty new sytem how are we supposed to get something traded with each other if we killed a boss and one of our dds got a item he doesn´t nedd but another one would gladly take it? Wait and hope that he gets one the next week? Or hoping the first dd gets that item again so he can trade it?
    Whoever invented this shit never raided outside of a complet guildgroup.

  10. #30
    Stood in the Fire Shoat's Avatar
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    For full-on pugs (as in: anything involving the group find tool), personal loot is totally fine and master looter does not need to return to those.
    But there is a lot of stuff inbetween "pug" and "80% guild member group".
    Our guild does a decent amount of cooperation with some players of a second guild, outside-guild friends, outside-guild alt characters and so on, so a decent amount of our runs are only at 50-70% guild members (though we do many 80-100% guild member runs aswell), so we can't master loot half the time from now on.

    And personal loot sucks balls in terms of proper cooperation. It's complete trash there. PL is for anonymous pugs, and it does it's job fine in those, but it has no place in an organized group.
    Sure you can trade stuff afterwards, but that's clunky slow and confusing for everyone and a huge fucking hassle - instead of one guy staying behind and handling loot (seeing who needs something, how much of an upgrade it is for everyone, discussing who would be willing or not willing to pass on something for another player, etc.) while the rest clears trash, with PL everyone has to stop and pilfer through the chat log (and make sure not to confuse the PL loot with the bonus roll loot which is not tradeable) together for twice as long as loot distribution took before.
    And yet it still results in just as many actual loot upgrades and just as many useless pieces of loot getting disenchanted or sold in exchange for a lot more time and frustration - it's a complete failure.

    I get that the intenion is to stop "X loot reserved" runs and loot-selling-pug runs and other cancerous shit (like the occasional ninjaloot raidleader once every 4 months), but forbidding us from using ML completely sucks. Disable ML as soon as the group finder is involved, sure, but it's total bullshit to forbid it otherwise.
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  11. #31
    Is ML a better option? Yes, in my opinion it is. But sadly most people are so fucking greedy it ran it straight out of the game in pugging situations. Classic example of community ruining a better option because of toxicity.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiea View Post
    People want rewards, but they don't want to do any work for it, and believe it or not, creating a PuG to clear challenging content takes A LOT of effort. And lets be fair, if the raidleader wants to reserve some gear (or all of it) then that is his right to do so. Obviously reserving a lot of gear can be detrimental to your group, people don't want to join a group with a bunch of gear reserved. With that said, there is also enough class/roll combos available to where you could have 1 conquerer and still have a healthy mix of classes.
    I just want to highlight a bit about the end of this paragraph, and point out the flaw.
    Now, gear has now changed so that Plate is Plate, Mail is Mail etc, the primary stat will always suit an appropriate wearer. In addition Spirit and Bonus armor have been removed from accessories. Weapons are changing to Artifacts with the drops being usable by all (afaik.)
    With all that in mind what happens if a Holy Paladin reserves gear, who all is now potentially losing out on the ability to obtain this gear?
    Well first all Plate wearers lose out, so all other Paladins, Warriors and Death Knights. (9/36 specs)
    Second we have the accessories which affects all casters so Holy Paladins, Resto/Ele Shaman, MW Monks, Mages, Warlocks, Priests (13/36 specs)
    Third we also have Tier pieces, which currently stand as sharing between Paladins, Warlocks, Priests and Demon Hunter, this may change in Legion ofc (11/36 specs)
    So even without counting for the weapon items a total of 23 specs are affected by a single Holy Paladin reserving items in Legion. That is just shy of 2/3rds all available specs. Do you really think that's something we should simply accept as someones right?

    You may consider forming a group "A LOT of effort" - but remember that everyone who participates on the kill has to put in effort too, they have just as much right to the loot as the person forming the group. I would argue that finding a group can be a lot of effort, especially if your item level as around the appropriate value for the content, because most people seem to want people who out gear content so they can have their "smooth" run, which I daresay constitutes most of the difficulty they have in forming the group in the first place.

  13. #33
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    honestly i'm not so sure.

    Sure the occasional ninjalooter is annoying,but usually you can see the signs and leave the group anyways.

    But this new system? Even my guildies are already going "hey do you need that item can i have it?" and it's only been a week. THere is going to be beggars all over the place, and a lot of them wont be very nice about it, saying you don't need an item for xyz reason, being rude about it, etc. will get old fast.
    Then on the other hand you will have nice people asking for loot who then get stonewalled because of peoples bad experiences with beggars, or people who will want money/pets in return for a item, or will just say "it's worth 10g for me to vendor it, so fu".
    Heck remember back in the dragon soul days, at the end of the run there would always be people selling their loot.

    I honestly don't know but i can see this new system backfiring in pugs too.
    if i pug on alts or my main for whatever reason if i get item i cant use and is same or lower ilvl so its possible to trade it, i wont be giving it o beggers just to friendly people.

  14. #34
    Glad it's gone, it seems impossible to join a pug that doesn't have a under-geared noob for a RL that reserves every item he or she needs. It really gets on my nerves. ML should only be used in a guild setting tbh, this has 100% eliminated ninjaing as a problem, and it's gonna stop people getting free boosts by reserving 10 items. Both these things are bad, if anything personal loot increases your chance of loot because both the mentioned issues are non existent.

  15. #35
    Herald of the Titans Treeskee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Him of Many Faces View Post
    well you trade ninjalooting for people selling loot they dont need.

    pick your poison there is always something that can be abused.
    At worst I could see people trading loot they don't need for loot they do, but if both people don't need the loot then and they each get an upgrade this is even more a plus. I doubt you'll see selling since you can't trade gold cross realm.
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  16. #36
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    @DevoutChaos
    Raidlead provides you multiple services:
    - builds the group up considering the best setup
    - checks every member is viable and well equipped to do his job
    - coordinates the group during the raid



    Personally i like Goldbit best for PuG's. Either you get geared or more Gold. There is no lose.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by bt4 View Post
    @DevoutChaos
    Raidlead provides you multiple services:
    - builds the group up considering the best setup
    - checks every member is viable and well equipped to do his job
    - coordinates the group during the raid



    Personally i like Goldbit best for PuG's. Either you get geared or more Gold. There is no lose.
    In my experience they just want the trinket from council, they'd advertise it with a "link achiev" e.t.c, not lead shit, invite anyone, and end the raid at Gorefiend. I'm yet to PuG upper. I join failed pugs on my alt every week, try to start a group and get bored after 2 hours. It's like people actually prefer pugs with reserved loot and inexperienced raiders.

  18. #38
    Master Looter was always the mathematically better option before. And since I had the luxury of getting into reputable good PuG's ninjalooting wasn't really something I observed except for cases where I helped out in instances far below my normal levels. Even on my alt. Thus I have always joined ML groups, and never PL.

    The new rules sort of change this. All I need is to bring a few other players who shares most of my loot table but need different drops and we can probably get decent numbers of average loot. It will be a bit strange maybe to for example have all healers be priests, and all ranged be mages, but it will make the loot way better so clearly worth the effort.

    If they in any way nerf the ability to trade (a real risk) because people start to stack to rather silly levels, then they should also allow Master Looter back. It's just to good in comparison at that point. The 'all druid/paladin/monk' run starts to look really good too. If you can get ppl willing to cooperate you can basically get the effect of Master Looter but with only loot for your class (even spec if all decide to say, put loot-spec wind walker because 100% of the raid has that as their MS and if all have that on all the time it is optimal for the group as a whole).

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by DevoutChaos View Post
    I just want to highlight a bit about the end of this paragraph, and point out the flaw.
    Now, gear has now changed so that Plate is Plate, Mail is Mail etc, the primary stat will always suit an appropriate wearer. In addition Spirit and Bonus armor have been removed from accessories. Weapons are changing to Artifacts with the drops being usable by all (afaik.)
    With all that in mind what happens if a Holy Paladin reserves gear, who all is now potentially losing out on the ability to obtain this gear?
    Well first all Plate wearers lose out, so all other Paladins, Warriors and Death Knights. (9/36 specs)
    Second we have the accessories which affects all casters so Holy Paladins, Resto/Ele Shaman, MW Monks, Mages, Warlocks, Priests (13/36 specs)
    Third we also have Tier pieces, which currently stand as sharing between Paladins, Warlocks, Priests and Demon Hunter, this may change in Legion ofc (11/36 specs)
    So even without counting for the weapon items a total of 23 specs are affected by a single Holy Paladin reserving items in Legion. That is just shy of 2/3rds all available specs. Do you really think that's something we should simply accept as someones right?
    It is the master looters right to reserve gear, and while you say 2/3rds of all the specs. Let us say I am a holy paladin, I reserve every single piece of gear that I can use, and I set up a raid of 15 people, 2 tanks, 3 healers and 10 DPS.
    Obviously I will be one of the healers, after that I get a druid and monk healer. Our tanks happen to be a DK and a DH, so far I share trinkets with two healers and offpieces with 1 tank.

    We now add in 10 dps, 2 hunters, 1 warlock, 2 mages, 1 rogue, 1 warrior, 1 feral druid, 1 DH and 1 enhancement shaman.

    I now have a raid with 15 people, and the overlap of my gear is with 3 tier pieces, I share offpieces with 2 other players, and trinkets with 2 other players.

    Now, for no single dispute of gear do I exceed 1/3th of the raid, and you can easily replace those people with other classes (Outside of the healers, obviously) and still have a solid raid setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevoutChaos View Post
    You may consider forming a group "A LOT of effort" - but remember that everyone who participates on the kill has to put in effort too, they have just as much right to the loot as the person forming the group. I would argue that finding a group can be a lot of effort, especially if your item level as around the appropriate value for the content, because most people seem to want people who out gear content so they can have their "smooth" run, which I daresay constitutes most of the difficulty they have in forming the group in the first place.
    Well then I ask, if it is so hard to get into a group, why do you not create you own? Yes it can be tedious to get into a group sometimes because your ilvl is not high enough, your role is not required or any number of reasons, but at the end of the day all the effort you need to do is sign up and possibly link an achievement.

    The leader has to look at all applicants, decide what classes he wants for the raid, and in the case of harder content, he might even need to double check to make sure you are not lying, things such as achivements can be faked or bought, and thereby have no merit at all. After this he has to sort out tactics for each boss if needed, place markers, do ready checks and replace anyone who has left the raid, all the while he gets whispers from players telling him X player should be kicked for Y reason.


    Also, as a last note, I did also say that loot rules when using the raidfinder tool should be declared when signing the raid up, and locked in place or some other measure to make sure the leader does not change it mid raid.
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  20. #40
    NO, it shouldn't be returned so people can continue "tier and trinkets on reserve for guild". What "guild"? Its you and 2 other people with the rest being pugs. It's not a guild run at that point. Fuck those people. If you're so damn good, you'd be in a guild, clearing shit, not making pugs just so you can steal stuff. Go try that ML ninja bullshit with your guild and see how long that guild lasts.

    Good riddance and hopefully all the people saying they won't pug anymore stick to it and keep their shitty behavior in their own little circle of friends.
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