Canada may become the first country to ditch the F-35 fighter jet

[Kellhound]

What version is Canada buying? Cause B is over 100 mils no?

Why would they buy the B to replace CF-18s????? They are set to buy A versions, like most buyers.

Do you even know why they picked the F/A-18 over the F-16?

[Ulmita]

Why would they buy the B to replace CF-18s????? They are set to buy A versions, like most buyers.

Do you even know why they picked the F/A-18 over the F-16?

Not sure? Due to twin engines?

[Macaquerie]

F/A-18E/F unit cost - $62 million (2016)
EA-18G unit costs - $80 million
Eurofighter Typhoon unit cost - $136 million
F-35A unit cost - $85 million


But please continue to go on about how the F-35 is unaffordable. In the US we've long since figured out that whenever people make the "unaffordable argument", what they really mean is that they, personally, just don't want to pay for it. It doesn't work with us. That's what happens when you have politicians spending a good five years in the richest country in the history of man pretending we're looking for change between the seats.

The fact that the US is rich can't be used to justify spending boatloads of money on whatever random project comes along. Regardless of what it's combat capabilities might be, the F-35 is going to be a waste of money because the shiny new high tech stuff never actually gets used, whereas the outdated expendable stuff is always first in the line of fire. If it came to war with Russia or China, those F-35s are going to sit in a hangar until the outcome of the war is decided, can you imagine the political fallout if the jet underperformed in combat or, God forbid, fell into enemy hands?

[Silversorrow]

That's cool, we don't have much respect for you either. I mean, lol, just look at you...

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Love how you don't show your nation and yet make this claim. It's almost like you WANT to look like a joke.

Idk.....I think he's a hoot.........

[Kellhound]

Not sure? Due to twin engines?

Good guess. That and the fact the F-16 didnt have BVR capability at the time.

[Ulmita]

Good guess. That and the fact the F-16 didnt have BVR capability at the time.

Is the latest F-16 even exportable? (I think only that version has an AESA onboard). Also, i know it has some EW capabilities but how do they compare with the F-18? For some reason i always thought more of the F-18.

[Tradewind]

Not sure? Due to twin engines?

The twin engine need is a bit of a myth, borne of the CF-104 Starfighter and CF-86 Sabre and their shared abhorrent safety history. Often incorrectly attributed to the single engine design.

Canada went with the F-18 ultimately because it did more stuff, despite the F-16 being cheaper per unit. The F-16 is an air superiority fighter, wheras the F-18 is a multirole fighter. The F-16 didn't adopt the extra goodies until the F-16C in 1984.

Plus a bunch of other shit I don't wanna type out on my phone lol.

[Skroe]

Is the latest F-16 even exportable? (I think only that version has an AESA onboard). Also, i know it has some EW capabilities but how do they compare with the F-18? For some reason i always thought more of the F-18.

The latest F-16 is ONLY exportable.

This is the F-16E for the United Arab Emirates (in Arizona colors for testing from a decade back).



The US stopped buying F-16s in 1996. The most advanced F-16s the US owns in large numbers is the is Block 50/52 F-16 C/D, but most of the fleet was BNlock 30/32 and block 40/42.


THe 50/52 was evolved into various export variants that has better capabilities (such as support for conformal fuel tanks) but a modified "worse" export Radar. That changed with the F-16E/F Block 60 and the F-16I (for Israel) which are better than what the US flies. There are also other variants for Singapore, South Korea, Brazil and India that were proposed but not optioned that evolved the E/F design for the UAE. The US had the option of buying the E/F in the early 2000s but elected not to because (1) it expected the F-35 to be ready years earlier than it was and (2), the real reason, is it wants to convert to an all F-35 fleet as soon as possible and rid itself of F-16s sooner rather than later.

Remember all our Russian threads how I said Russia's problem is that it owns redundant weapon systems and has to pay for the industrial bases to support both? The USAF in this case doesn't want to support both industrial and maintenance bases for late model F-16s and F-35s a day longer than it has to.

Five years ago there were 1600 F-16s in the USAF. Today that number is down to about 900, with the Air Force retiring about 100-200 per year. Over the next few years, another 500 will be retired and about 400 will be retained as the F-35 is rapidly introduced, before being retired for good before 2030.

Imagine if the US had bought the F-16E/F, Russian style. It would be supporting the F-16 into the 2040s and spending billions per year doing it. It already has to do that with the F-15C, thanks to building half the number of F-22s needed. It didn't want to do it again.

In short the export-model F-16Es are by far the most advanced F-16Es ever built and highly capable aircraft, but they are in the present day mostly focused on the attack and BVR role they emerged into and are in no way optimized for the "lightweight fighter" that the F-16 was designed around. History is a bit useful here. Jimmy Carter refused to export the F-16, instead offering a souped up F-5E called the F-21 Tigershark to European air forces desperate to replace their 1960s era fighters. When Reagan became President, he offered the F-16 almost immediately, and the F-16 became a rich-country's aircraft of choice while middle income and poorer Western countries bought second hand F-4s and F-5s. It wasn't until the mid 1990s that the F-16 started entering the inventory of less affluent armed forces or smaller countries.

With the F-16E we're seeing something similar. Wealthy and large nations are all buying the F-35, but not late model F-16s. The F-35 isn't being offered to say, Singapore, just yet. In another 15 years, you'll start seeing the folks with late model F-16s look to replace them with a likely "F-35D Block 40" or something (an F-35 with upgraded electronics and that new engine we were talking about). And first-round-of-order countries will get some of those as well.

From a market perspective the only thing different about the F-35 is that is basically aims to do what happened unplanned with the F-16 all over again, but this time organized. THe F-16 was envisioned to allow the Air Force to counter a huge number of cheap soviet fighters that would massively outnumber the F-15. What it became and how it was used, especially as an export product, was an accident of history.

But the reason the F-16E is exportable is because aircrafts most preciously guarded secrets, its sensor systems, is far inferior to the F-35s. And with the F-35 keep in mind, while Tier II and Tier III partner countries are getting a full featured F-35, only the US and Tier I (the UK) is getting access to the technology behind it. As a Tier III Partner, Canada would get fuly functioning F-35As, but there would be no technology transfer and no explanation of how it works. This has been a kind of compromise - the F-16 successor naturally needed to have stealth and advanced sensors, but the US didn't want to give away the keys to the kingdom, so it settled on giving our partners something they could use, but making it impossible for them to take care of on their own.

I mentioned for example how the F-35 has an API. This is critical to that effort. With an F-16, owners can customize the hell out of it. It is not uncommon for them to rip out the delivery radar, buy an aftermarket model and concoct an interface. With the F-35, that's forbidden. They can attach pods and modules and write "apps" for the F-35 main computer, but nobody has the technical know how or the legal permission to open the F-35 and fill it with domestic hardware (the exception being Israel, for really stupid reasons).

[Purpleisbetter]

@Ulmita

LRIP7 is quite "old" of lot now. The prices went down significantly during LRIP11 and 12.



Btw, the turkey in its A variant, is going to be IOC for USAF on 5th of October according to USAF Col. Bradely Bird.

As such, both Turkey A and Turkey B, while being notoriously unable to turn, climb and run (while performing Cobra fully loaded with 6 hardpoint installed and equipped), are also very likely to make their debut on Syria.

But those turkeys do not care about about their physical impairment and keep mauling F16C in Arizona, F15E @ mount hill and apperently (brand new):


" In training, the aircraft’s stealth was so effective that pilots had to turn on their FAA emitters to tell the SAM threats they were around so they knew the aircraft were targets and the F-35As could attack. “We basically told them where we were at so we could shoot at them,” Watkins said."



p.s.: all the IOC F35 will feature the nitrogen mods and block 3F software upgrade, making A B C specs respectively 9g,7.5g,7.5g WHILE FULLY LOADED. F16 is limited at 6.5g on the same conditions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uh4yMAx2UA Bottom Left to see the max G pulled by the pilot.

p.p.s.: The video might be fake because there's no way the balls of that pilot could actually fit such a small cabin. Lol.

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But the reason the F-16E is exportable is because aircrafts most preciously guarded secrets, its sensor systems, is far inferior to the F-35s. And with the F-35 keep in mind, while Tier II and Tier III partner countries are getting a full featured F-35, only the US and Tier I (the UK) is getting access to the technology behind it. As a Tier III Partner, Canada would get fuly functioning F-35As, but there would be no technology transfer and no explanation of how it works. This has been a kind of compromise - the F-16 successor naturally needed to have stealth and advanced sensors, but the US didn't want to give away the keys to the kingdom, so it settled on giving our partners something they could use, but making it impossible for them to take care of on their own.

I don't know where did you pulled this Tier BS, but F35 are going to be built in Italy too; while LM is evaluating a possible second european factory.
Rumors said Poland, but seems odd as Poland is not involved with the program.

(the exception being Israel, for really stupid reasons).

This is a little dumb, considering Israel provided and actually provides more aerial feedback then any other country from the West.
Also, do you mind those external pods the latest iteration of F15 features since the last decade? That's an Israeli idea.
LM is smart, the Pentagon is smart and let the Israelis do their things. Which automatically translates into some clever upgrades at low cost.

[Skroe]

@Ulmita

LRIP7 is quite "old" of lot now. The prices went down significantly during LRIP11 and 12.



Btw, the turkey in its A variant, is going to be IOC for USAF on 5th of October according to USAF Col. Bradely Bird.

As such, both Turkey A and Turkey B, while being notoriously unable to turn, climb and run (while performing Cobra fully loaded with 6 hardpoint installed and equipped), are also very likely to make their debut on Syria.

But those turkeys do not care about about their physical impairment and keep mauling F16C in Arizona, F15E @ mount hill and apperently (brand new):


" In training, the aircraft’s stealth was so effective that pilots had to turn on their FAA emitters to tell the SAM threats they were around so they knew the aircraft were targets and the F-35As could attack. “We basically told them where we were at so we could shoot at them,” Watkins said."



p.s.: all the IOC F35 will feature the nitrogen mods and block 3F software upgrade, making A B C specs respectively 9g,7.5g,7.5g WHILE FULLY LOADED. F16 is limited at 6.5g on the same conditions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uh4yMAx2UA Bottom Left to see the max G pulled by the pilot.

p.p.s.: The video might be fake because there's no way the balls of that pilot could actually fit such a small cabin. Lol.

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I don't know where did you pulled this Tier BS, but F35 are going to be built in Italy too; while LM is evaluating a possible second european factory.
Rumors said Poland, but seems odd as Poland is not involved with the program.



This is a little dumb, considering Israel provided and actually provides more aerial feedback then any other country from the West.
Also, do you mind those external pods the latest iteration of F15 features since the last decade? That's an Israeli idea.
LM is smart, the Pentagon is smart and let the Israelis do their things. Which automatically translates into some clever upgrades at low cost.

Tier BS:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...updated-04659/

System development partners included The USA & Britain (Tier 1), Italy and the Netherlands (Tier 2), and Australia, Canada, Denmark, Norway and Turkey (Tier 3). Now the challenge is agreeing on production phase buys, with initial purchase commitments expected around 2008-2009. Export interest is also beginning to stir in a number of quarters, even though full testing will not be complete until 2014.

...

The JSF program is ‘tiered,’ with 4 possible levels of participation based on admission levels and funding commitments for the System Design & Development (SDD) phase. Note that all SDD funding totals below are in US dollar equivalents:

Tier 1 Partners: The USA (majority commitment), Britain ($2 billion)
Tier 2 Partners: Italy ($1 billion); The Netherlands ($800 million)
Tier 3 Partners: Australia ($150M), Canada ($150M), Denmark ($125M), Norway ($125M), Turkey ($175M)
Security Cooperative Participants status: Israel ($35M external link), Singapore.

Exports: In September 2006, Lockheed Martin vice president for the JSF program Tom Burbage said that Greece, Japan, South Korea, and Spain have expressed interest in buying F-35s. India has also been rumored as a future JSF customer, and Indian representatives have been invited to Joint Strike Fighter events.
All Tier 1-3 nations have also signed MoUs for the Production Phase. This is not a commitment to buy, just the phase in which production arrangements are hammered out – subject to revision, of course, if that country decides not to buy F-35s. Italy has expressed an interest in a Lockheed-Martin Final Assembly and Check Out (FACO) plant for European orders, and Fellow Tier 1 partner Britain is examining a FACO of its own for BAE. The Netherlands, meanwhile, wants to be a center for engine sustainment and heavy maintenance. The Dutch have signed an agreement with Italy to help each country get what it wants; Norway was added to that agreement in June 2007.

...

Global production
(click to view full)
BAE Systems is deriving substantial benefits from Britain’s Tier 1 partner status; they will be responsible for the design, manufacture and assembly of the F-35 JSF aft fuselage and empennage (vertical and horizontal tails), and are also involved in other areas including the crew escape system, fuel system, life support system and proactive aircraft diagnostics system integration.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...reement-02495/

New dawn for the F-35?
(click to view full)
The USA’s ITAR laws covering military technology transfer have been a thorn in the multinational F-35 program’s side from day 1. Those restrictions were a barrier to allied participants’ wish to be full participants in the project, and have also created questions regarding their ability to maintain their aircraft without always having to go hat in hand to the USA. Shared stealth technologies like radar-absorbing paint that helps the aircraft meet its design promises, software source code underpinning the aircraft’s equipment and weapons integration, and agreements covering follow-on development of after-market capabilities were the key issues for the UK – but the UK is not alone in its concerns by any means.

In December 2005, “UK Warns USA Over ITAR Arms Restrictions” explained the core issues, and obstacles. There were even fears that Britain would pull out of the project. In March 2006, “British JSF Prospects Looking Up” offered a complete history of the issue, and indicated progress. In August 2006, the USA and UK reportedly reached an agreement. Now, in November 2009, there are reports that the USA is backtracking on that agreement…


Nov 24/09: Reuters reports that America will not release F-35 source code to any partner country, even Britain:

“The United States will keep to itself sensitive software code that controls Lockheed Martin Corp’s new radar-evading F-35 fighter jet… Jon Schreiber, who heads the program’s international affairs, told Reuters in an interview Monday [that] “That includes everybody,” he said, acknowledging this was not overly popular among the eight that have co-financed F-35 development — Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Australia, Denmark and Norway.”

Instead, the USA plans to set up a “reprogramming facility” to further develop F-35-related software and distribute upgrades. The terms on which allies might use this facility, and Lockheed Martin’s ability to stall or block upgrades that might boost competing products, are not detailed. Reuters external link | Spectator Op-Ed external link.

July 18/06: American and British defense officials ink a new agreement on the transfer of sensitive technologies for the Joint Strike Fighter aircraft. Pentagon acquisition bigwig Kenneth Krieg and UK MoD chief of procurement Sir Peter Spencer reportedly signed an agreement setting forth a joint statement of principles for Britain to achieve “operational sovereignty” of any F-35 Lightning II aircraft it buys.

The next step will be a series of classified annexes to the agreement that will spell out the procedures and understandings for specific technologies within the program. These are expected to be in place by November, 2006, paving the way for a December 2006 or early 2007 agreement on go-forward production arrangements among the consortium allies. See the full Inside Defense article

/shoo

[Kellhound]

Is the latest F-16 even exportable? (I think only that version has an AESA onboard). Also, i know it has some EW capabilities but how do they compare with the F-18? For some reason i always thought more of the F-18.

The US doesnt even buy the newest F-16s, they are all exported.

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The twin engine need is a bit of a myth, borne of the CF-104 Starfighter and CF-86 Sabre and their shared abhorrent safety history. Often incorrectly attributed to the single engine design.

Canada went with the F-18 ultimately because it did more stuff, despite the F-16 being cheaper per unit. The F-16 is an air superiority fighter, wheras the F-18 is a multirole fighter. The F-16 didn't adopt the extra goodies until the F-16C in 1984.

Plus a bunch of other shit I don't wanna type out on my phone lol.

In 1982, the F-16 was not a true air superiority fighter (that was the F-15), it was just a light day fighter with no BVR capability. It did have strike capability, as the IAF showed in 1981.

[Tradewind]

My bad, I mis-labelled it or had it in my head that they were synonymous

[Purpleisbetter]

I don't really think the Tier-ing means what you think it means.

The quote about the software... i feel like i've been presented a detailed report about wetness of water.

Cool but...?

Edit:

USAF last purchase of Vipers is dated Jan 3rd, 2001 and the 4 vipers were delivered between october 2002 and Jan 2003.

[Kellhound]

The latest F-16 is ONLY exportable.

This is the F-16E for the United Arab Emirates (in Arizona colors for testing from a decade back).



The US stopped buying F-16s in 1996. The most advanced F-16s the US owns in large numbers is the is Block 50/52 F-16 C/D, but most of the fleet was BNlock 30/32 and block 40/42.


THe 50/52 was evolved into various export variants that has better capabilities (such as support for conformal fuel tanks) but a modified "worse" export Radar. That changed with the F-16E/F Block 60 and the F-16I (for Israel) which are better than what the US flies. There are also other variants for Singapore, South Korea, Brazil and India that were proposed but not optioned that evolved the E/F design for the UAE. The US had the option of buying the E/F in the early 2000s but elected not to because (1) it expected the F-35 to be ready years earlier than it was and (2), the real reason, is it wants to convert to an all F-35 fleet as soon as possible and rid itself of F-16s sooner rather than later.

Remember all our Russian threads how I said Russia's problem is that it owns redundant weapon systems and has to pay for the industrial bases to support both? The USAF in this case doesn't want to support both industrial and maintenance bases for late model F-16s and F-35s a day longer than it has to.

Five years ago there were 1600 F-16s in the USAF. Today that number is down to about 900, with the Air Force retiring about 100-200 per year. Over the next few years, another 500 will be retired and about 400 will be retained as the F-35 is rapidly introduced, before being retired for good before 2030.

Imagine if the US had bought the F-16E/F, Russian style. It would be supporting the F-16 into the 2040s and spending billions per year doing it. It already has to do that with the F-15C, thanks to building half the number of F-22s needed. It didn't want to do it again.

In short the export-model F-16Es are by far the most advanced F-16Es ever built and highly capable aircraft, but they are in the present day mostly focused on the attack and BVR role they emerged into and are in no way optimized for the "lightweight fighter" that the F-16 was designed around. History is a bit useful here. Jimmy Carter refused to export the F-16, instead offering a souped up F-5E called the F-21 Tigershark to European air forces desperate to replace their 1960s era fighters. When Reagan became President, he offered the F-16 almost immediately, and the F-16 became a rich-country's aircraft of choice while middle income and poorer Western countries bought second hand F-4s and F-5s. It wasn't until the mid 1990s that the F-16 started entering the inventory of less affluent armed forces or smaller countries.

With the F-16E we're seeing something similar. Wealthy and large nations are all buying the F-35, but not late model F-16s. The F-35 isn't being offered to say, Singapore, just yet. In another 15 years, you'll start seeing the folks with late model F-16s look to replace them with a likely "F-35D Block 40" or something (an F-35 with upgraded electronics and that new engine we were talking about). And first-round-of-order countries will get some of those as well.

From a market perspective the only thing different about the F-35 is that is basically aims to do what happened unplanned with the F-16 all over again, but this time organized. THe F-16 was envisioned to allow the Air Force to counter a huge number of cheap soviet fighters that would massively outnumber the F-15. What it became and how it was used, especially as an export product, was an accident of history.

But the reason the F-16E is exportable is because aircrafts most preciously guarded secrets, its sensor systems, is far inferior to the F-35s. And with the F-35 keep in mind, while Tier II and Tier III partner countries are getting a full featured F-35, only the US and Tier I (the UK) is getting access to the technology behind it. As a Tier III Partner, Canada would get fuly functioning F-35As, but there would be no technology transfer and no explanation of how it works. This has been a kind of compromise - the F-16 successor naturally needed to have stealth and advanced sensors, but the US didn't want to give away the keys to the kingdom, so it settled on giving our partners something they could use, but making it impossible for them to take care of on their own.

I mentioned for example how the F-35 has an API. This is critical to that effort. With an F-16, owners can customize the hell out of it. It is not uncommon for them to rip out the delivery radar, buy an aftermarket model and concoct an interface. With the F-35, that's forbidden. They can attach pods and modules and write "apps" for the F-35 main computer, but nobody has the technical know how or the legal permission to open the F-35 and fill it with domestic hardware (the exception being Israel, for really stupid reasons).

Just an FYI, the reason the UAE F-16 is wearing the markings of the Arizona Air National Guard is they are tasked with training foreign F-16 operators out of Tucson. The planes are owned by the UAE but never leave the US and are painted in US markings.