Havoc in Legion: 7.2.5 Guide

[Lostprophet]

Probably 880 socketed Memento + DoS

[malcolmlu]

Quick question regarding critical chaos: is it additive, like say 200+6%, or multiplicative, like 200*106% ?
cuz when i look at the sim, it seems like additive, so the max crit damge for CS is 242% but on the log, it is definitely multiplicative, for i found alot logs with 250%ish to 260%ish average crit damage. Can someone explain this to me, or a potentially oversight of the sim?

[Deix-EU]

Quick question regarding critical chaos: is it additive, like say 200+6%, or multiplicative, like 200*106% ?
cuz when i look at the sim, it seems like additive, so the max crit damge for CS is 242% but on the log, it is definitely multiplicative, for i found alot logs with 250%ish to 260%ish average crit damage. Can someone explain this to me, or a potentially oversight of the sim?

It's alway additive for obvious mathematical reason (exponential avoiding)

[Deleted]

It's alway additive for obvious mathematical reason (exponential avoiding)

It definitely is multiplicative, test in on a dummy if you wish but at my current gear levels my chaos strike hits for 340k and crits for over 900k (tested using gear with no procs at all to remove randomness), which is over 2,6 times the difference. (5 ranks in Critical Chaos, so 30% crit damage as per tooltip)

The same applies to Bladedancer's Grace, crits deal roughly 240% damage.

[malcolmlu]

It definitely is multiplicative, test in on a dummy if you wish but at my current gear levels my chaos strike hits for 340k and crits for over 900k (tested using gear with no procs at all to remove randomness), which is over 2,6 times the difference. (5 ranks in Critical Chaos, so 30% crit damage as per tooltip)

The same applies to Bladedancer's Grace, crits deal roughly 240% damage.

Yeah thats what i thought, tested on dummy and went through some logs, it certainly seems like multiplicative, however sims suggests otherwise, so i dunno really, hence the question.

[Zaak]

It's BaseDamage * 2 * (1 + (0.6 * [number of traits])

So, having 5/5 in CS, it would be:
300k * 2 * 1.3 = 780k

[malcolmlu]

And sims is using additive for sure, i have 4/4 CC and bladedancer's grace, and my crit damage on Annihilation, CS are around 2.24, BD 2.4(strangely), and DW 2.0 (so the new trait does not affect DW at all??).
This is really confusing, so sims is wrong on this?

[Deleted]

And sims is using additive for sure, i have 4/4 CC and bladedancer's grace, and my crit damage on Annihilation, CS are around 2.24, BD 2.4(strangely), and DW 2.0 (so the new trait does not affect DW at all??).
This is really confusing, so sims is wrong on this?

seems like simc is doing it wrong indeed, which basically means throw away all your non critical chaos relics. with each trait giving double the bonus ingame compared to simc a relic should be worth around +8-10 weapon ilvl depending on spec

[gaaara]

This is my SIMC for Bloodlet vs First Blood

Bloodlet is wrists/Ring
First Blood is Shoulders/Ring

Although Bloodlet should take lead the moment there is more than 1 target.

[Deleted]

so simcraft now calculates critical chaos traits correctly and my recent sims are these:

873598 demonic (raddons + anger)
847290 chaos cleave (sephuz + anger)
844225 first blood (sephuz + anger)

this is kinda weird cause i played demonic on some bosses but the damage felt weaker. i mean i get that its actually really hard and practically impossible to always collect the souls at the right time but didn't think that i play it that badly. i only used it for utility like soaking spores on botanist or bat-phase damage on tichondrius but the sim suggest i should always play it.

anybody care to sim theirs too so i can compare?

[Extremity]

so simcraft now calculates critical chaos traits correctly and my recent sims are these:

873598 demonic (raddons + anger)
847290 chaos cleave (sephuz + anger)
844225 first blood (sephuz + anger)

this is kinda weird cause i played demonic on some bosses but the damage felt weaker. i mean i get that its actually really hard and practically impossible to always collect the souls at the right time but didn't think that i play it that badly. i only used it for utility like soaking spores on botanist or bat-phase damage on tichondrius but the sim suggest i should always play it.

anybody care to sim theirs too so i can compare?

Are you running the sim with the setting to "perfect play"? Try running it with the "skill" setting, whatever it's called, toned down a bit.

[Jayman29]

so simcraft now calculates critical chaos traits correctly and my recent sims are these:

873598 demonic (raddons + anger)
847290 chaos cleave (sephuz + anger)
844225 first blood (sephuz + anger)

this is kinda weird cause i played demonic on some bosses but the damage felt weaker. i mean i get that its actually really hard and practically impossible to always collect the souls at the right time but didn't think that i play it that badly. i only used it for utility like soaking spores on botanist or bat-phase damage on tichondrius but the sim suggest i should always play it.

anybody care to sim theirs too so i can compare?

I have the raddons + anger as my legendaries. Is it worth switch my build to demonic for max dps?

[Deleted]

Are you running the sim with the setting to "perfect play"? Try running it with the "skill" setting, whatever it's called, toned down a bit.

not sure which option you mean and some of my client being in german (for whatever reason i have some german words here and there) doesn't help that

if you mean under options -> global -> sth like "player skill": i have mine set to elite. do you run yours at good?

just did it on good:

829297 demonic
826219 chaos cleave
822514 first blood

so demonic is still "ahead" also not by that much

- - - Updated - - -

I have the raddons + anger as my legendaries. Is it worth switch my build to demonic for max dps?

do you have the belt? cause the belt is better in the "normal" build compared to sephuz. delusions + anger is good on some fights too, but i also don't have them. if you don't have them either you need to sim yourself. the demonic build or more so the talent builds including chaos cleave scale very good with crit and points in the critical chaos trait. i myself have high crit (43%) and 6/7 in critical chaos.

[Extremity]

not sure which option you mean and some of my client being in german (for whatever reason i have some german words here and there) doesn't help that

if you mean under options -> global -> sth like "player skill": i have mine set to elite. do you run yours at good?

just did it on good:

829297 demonic
826219 chaos cleave
822514 first blood

so demonic is still "ahead" also not by that much

I also run it at elite as I want to know what is mathematically the best assuming optimal playstyle, but if you're trying to use Simcraft to determine a realistic gap between builds it can be beneficial, *sometimes*, to run at a lower skill. For normal simcrafts you want to keep it at the highest level possible, yeah.

Honestly, there could be a multitude of reasons. What alternatives do you have for those legendaries? If the ring you replace Sephuz with is really bad but the non-legendary helm that takes the place of Raddon's is really good, that could make a difference; your non-legendary alternatives for each slot are definitely relevant.

What do your stats look like for each build? If you can give your crit/haste/mastery for each build it might help shine some light on things. What trinkets are you running? They play a *huge* part in things, as well. Are you running a standard single-target Patchwerk sim, or are you running "Boss with adds" or something?

An armory would help, but you would need to realistically provide one for each build. Instead, can you just list the following for your Demonic setup, and then again for your standard ST (ie First Blood build) one?

- EQUIPPED Item Level
- Trinkets
- Any pieces of gear that replace a legendary (ie for First Blood build, any gear replacing a legendary would mean whatever helm you wear in place of Raddons -- its item level, stats, and any upgrades like sockets etc)
- Exact spec
- Your opener and basic rotation/ability priority
- Anything else you deem relevant

I don't really care about the Chaos Cleave sim, I don't know where you'd run that and am assuming you simmed it just for the hell of it, but I am interested in comparing your Demonic to First Blood to see why it's giving you these results.

[Deleted]

I also run it at elite as I want to know what is mathematically the best assuming optimal playstyle, but if you're trying to use Simcraft to determine a realistic gap between builds it can be beneficial, *sometimes*, to run at a lower skill. For normal simcrafts you want to keep it at the highest level possible, yeah.

Honestly, there could be a multitude of reasons. What alternatives do you have for those legendaries? If the ring you replace Sephuz with is really bad but the non-legendary helm that takes the place of Raddon's is really good, that could make a difference; your non-legendary alternatives for each slot are definitely relevant.

What do your stats look like for each build? If you can give your crit/haste/mastery for each build it might help shine some light on things. What trinkets are you running? They play a *huge* part in things, as well. Are you running a standard single-target Patchwerk sim, or are you running "Boss with adds" or something?

An armory would help, but you would need to realistically provide one for each build. Instead, can you just list the following for your Demonic setup, and then again for your standard ST (ie First Blood build) one?

- EQUIPPED Item Level
- Trinkets
- Any pieces of gear that replace a legendary (ie for First Blood build, any gear replacing a legendary would mean whatever helm you wear in place of Raddons -- its item level, stats, and any upgrades like sockets etc)
- Exact spec
- Your opener and basic rotation/ability priority
- Anything else you deem relevant

I don't really care about the Chaos Cleave sim, I don't know where you'd run that and am assuming you simmed it just for the hell of it, but I am interested in comparing your Demonic to First Blood to see why it's giving you these results.

first of you should care about the chaos cleave sim because since now simc calculates the critical chaos traits correctly and crit values getting higher it might actually be better than first blood. you can even see players using chaos cleave emerge on the top ranks on warcraftlogs.

this is my demonic gear: eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/blackrock/Wydwen/simple (yes i know that i dont have a gem in my pants ;P)

at the moment when playing first blood i switch:

raddons -> 895 + socket tier helmet
tier shoulders -> 895 crit/mastery shoulders
utgarde ring -> sephuz

and thats basically it, all the builds have roughly the same stat weights anyway except for haste and versa switching at the bottom. i have a 900 dos and a 905 hov which i use sometimes but i just recently got the 905 memento and been using it exclusively during this id. can only provide you simc imports at the moment.

simc import firstblood (2221311):

head=mask_of_second_sight,id=138378,bonus_id=3516/1808/1492/3336,gems=150mastery
neck=wolfstride_pendant,id=133633,bonus_id=3536/1808/1552/3337,gems=150mastery,enchant=mark_of_the_claw
shoulders=mantle_of_the_torn_sky,id=140864,bonus_id=3516/1492/3336
back=cape_of_second_sight,id=138375,bonus_id=3516/1487/1813,enchant=200agi
chest=tunic_of_second_sight,id=138376,bonus_id=3518/1502/3528
wrists=bracers_of_impossible_choices,id=140889,bonus_id=3516/1808/1507/3337,gems=150mastery
hands=biornskin_gloves,id=134195,bonus_id=3536/1808/1557/3336,gems=150mastery
waist=cake_carriers_girdle,id=140858,bonus_id=3444/1512/3337
legs=legwraps_of_second_sight,id=138379,bonus_id=3516/1808/1492/3336
feet=grovetenders_moccasins,id=140861,bonus_id=3516/1808/1487/1813,gems=150crit
finger1=anger_of_the_halfgiants,id=137038,bonus_id=3458/3455/1811,gems=200agi,enchant=200mastery
finger2=sephuzs_secret,id=132452,bonus_id=3455/1811,gems=150mastery,enchant=200mastery
trinket1=memento_of_angerboda,id=133644,bonus_id=3418/1557/3337
trinket2=bloodthirsty_instinct,id=139329,bonus_id=1806/1522/3337
main_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127829,bonus_id=719,gem_id=140824/140823/140824/0,relic_id=3516:1492:3336/3517:1497:3336/3516:1487:1813/0
off_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127830

simc import demonic (3313333):

head=raddons_cascading_eyes,id=137061,bonus_id=1811/3455
neck=wolfstride_pendant,id=133633,bonus_id=3536/1808/1552/3337,gems=150mastery,enchant=mark_of_the_claw
shoulders=shoulderguards_of_second_sight,id=138380,bonus_id=3516/1808/1487/1813,gems=150crit
back=cape_of_second_sight,id=138375,bonus_id=3518/41/1502/3528,enchant=200agi
chest=tunic_of_second_sight,id=138376,bonus_id=3518/1502/3528
wrists=bracers_of_impossible_choices,id=140889,bonus_id=3516/1808/1507/3337,gems=150crit
hands=biornskin_gloves,id=134195,bonus_id=3536/1808/1557/3336,gems=150crit
waist=cake_carriers_girdle,id=140858,bonus_id=3444/1512/3337
legs=legwraps_of_second_sight,id=138379,bonus_id=3516/1808/1492/3336
feet=grovetenders_moccasins,id=140861,bonus_id=3516/1808/1487/1813,gems=150crit
finger1=utgarde_royal_signet,id=133637,bonus_id=3510/40/1537/3337,enchant=200crit
finger2=anger_of_the_halfgiants,id=137038,bonus_id=1811/3455,gems=200agi,enchant=200crit
trinket1=memento_of_angerboda,id=133644,bonus_id=3418/1557/3337
trinket2=bloodthirsty_instinct,id=139329,bonus_id=1806/1522/3337
main_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127829,bonus_id=719,gem_id=140824/140823/140824/0,relic_id=3516:1492:3336/3517:1497:3336/3516:1487:1813/0
off_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127830

my demonic opener is: felrush - nemesis - foti - arcane torrent + demonic bite - eyebeam - spam - meta - eyebeam - spam
as far as prio: i try to weave in felrush if the hitbox allows for it, try to collect souls when im low on fury and eb cd is >4 sec. obviously eb on cd as well as nem, foti and arcane torrent

[Deix-EU]

first of you should care about the chaos cleave sim because since now simc calculates the critical chaos traits correctly and crit values getting higher it might actually be better than first blood. you can even see players using chaos cleave emerge on the top ranks on warcraftlogs.

this is my demonic gear: eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/blackrock/Wydwen/simple (yes i know that i dont have a gem in my pants ;P)

at the moment when playing first blood i switch:

raddons -> 895 + socket tier helmet
tier shoulders -> 895 crit/mastery shoulders
utgarde ring -> sephuz

and thats basically it, all the builds have roughly the same stat weights anyway except for haste and versa switching at the bottom. i have a 900 dos and a 905 hov which i use sometimes but i just recently got the 905 memento and been using it exclusively during this id. can only provide you simc imports at the moment.

simc import firstblood (2221311):

head=mask_of_second_sight,id=138378,bonus_id=3516/1808/1492/3336,gems=150mastery
neck=wolfstride_pendant,id=133633,bonus_id=3536/1808/1552/3337,gems=150mastery,enchant=mark_of_the_claw
shoulders=mantle_of_the_torn_sky,id=140864,bonus_id=3516/1492/3336
back=cape_of_second_sight,id=138375,bonus_id=3516/1487/1813,enchant=200agi
chest=tunic_of_second_sight,id=138376,bonus_id=3518/1502/3528
wrists=bracers_of_impossible_choices,id=140889,bonus_id=3516/1808/1507/3337,gems=150mastery
hands=biornskin_gloves,id=134195,bonus_id=3536/1808/1557/3336,gems=150mastery
waist=cake_carriers_girdle,id=140858,bonus_id=3444/1512/3337
legs=legwraps_of_second_sight,id=138379,bonus_id=3516/1808/1492/3336
feet=grovetenders_moccasins,id=140861,bonus_id=3516/1808/1487/1813,gems=150crit
finger1=anger_of_the_halfgiants,id=137038,bonus_id=3458/3455/1811,gems=200agi,enchant=200mastery
finger2=sephuzs_secret,id=132452,bonus_id=3455/1811,gems=150mastery,enchant=200mastery
trinket1=memento_of_angerboda,id=133644,bonus_id=3418/1557/3337
trinket2=bloodthirsty_instinct,id=139329,bonus_id=1806/1522/3337
main_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127829,bonus_id=719,gem_id=140824/140823/140824/0,relic_id=3516:1492:3336/3517:1497:3336/3516:1487:1813/0
off_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127830

simc import demonic (3313333):

head=raddons_cascading_eyes,id=137061,bonus_id=1811/3455
neck=wolfstride_pendant,id=133633,bonus_id=3536/1808/1552/3337,gems=150mastery,enchant=mark_of_the_claw
shoulders=shoulderguards_of_second_sight,id=138380,bonus_id=3516/1808/1487/1813,gems=150crit
back=cape_of_second_sight,id=138375,bonus_id=3518/41/1502/3528,enchant=200agi
chest=tunic_of_second_sight,id=138376,bonus_id=3518/1502/3528
wrists=bracers_of_impossible_choices,id=140889,bonus_id=3516/1808/1507/3337,gems=150crit
hands=biornskin_gloves,id=134195,bonus_id=3536/1808/1557/3336,gems=150crit
waist=cake_carriers_girdle,id=140858,bonus_id=3444/1512/3337
legs=legwraps_of_second_sight,id=138379,bonus_id=3516/1808/1492/3336
feet=grovetenders_moccasins,id=140861,bonus_id=3516/1808/1487/1813,gems=150crit
finger1=utgarde_royal_signet,id=133637,bonus_id=3510/40/1537/3337,enchant=200crit
finger2=anger_of_the_halfgiants,id=137038,bonus_id=1811/3455,gems=200agi,enchant=200crit
trinket1=memento_of_angerboda,id=133644,bonus_id=3418/1557/3337
trinket2=bloodthirsty_instinct,id=139329,bonus_id=1806/1522/3337
main_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127829,bonus_id=719,gem_id=140824/140823/140824/0,relic_id=3516:1492:3336/3517:1497:3336/3516:1487:1813/0
off_hand=twinblades_of_the_deceiver,id=127830

my demonic opener is: felrush - nemesis - foti - arcane torrent + demonic bite - eyebeam - spam - meta - eyebeam - spam
as far as prio: i try to weave in felrush if the hitbox allows for it, try to collect souls when im low on fury and eb cd is >4 sec. obviously eb on cd as well as nem, foti and arcane torrent

As I said earlier, I'm dishing out more DPS ST with Demonic right now so yeah. And AE is a complete DPS feast. Also Chaos Cleave allowed me to pass the Spec Challenge without Mo'arg or high ilvl.

[Deleted]

As I said earlier, I'm dishing out more DPS ST with Demonic right now so yeah. And AE is a complete DPS feast. Also Chaos Cleave allowed me to pass the Spec Challenge without Mo'arg or high ilvl.

you responded to a claim that it is good for aoe ye i did the challenge with demonic chaos cleave too and speaking about it the boss damage in the void phase felt weak vs other options. that is the reason i started my discussion cause i feel firstblood should still be better st.

[Deleted]

Does anyone know if Chaos Cleave is better than Mo'arg on 2-3 targets?

[Deleted]

Does anyone know if Chaos Cleave is better than Mo'arg on 2-3 targets?

No.
Mo'arg + bloodlet spec is far away.

[Deleted]

how essential is the ring for havoc atm? i havent played my char for few months now and my only legs are raddons and cinidaria