What are your thoughts on Spectral Sight?

[Flurryfang]

I really like this addition. Most rogues might not have noticed, but our stealth mechanic is really strong! and there is no way to really counter it. As a rogue, you are nearly always sure to get a good opener against another target, which favors us in nearly all 1vs1 matches. I think it is okay, that DH gets a way to locate us, if they think it is needed. SS is still an ability, where you trade use of combat for x-ray vision, so it is not broken at all. What is going to happend is just, that you will see some more interesting war-games, where teams of players use a DH to locate people in houses. It will have no impact in Arena or Battleground, since it is really not a thing you can use in direct combat, so rogues are still gonna have good use of vanish in combat.

[ewokgangbang]

seems like op is mad he wont be able to stun lock a DH or is worried he wont be able to at least.

[therealbowser]

I think that demon hunters will be a hard counter for rogues, but it's unlikely they are going to spam spectral sight unless they know you are there.

This will be a major issue in arenas, but a lesser (but severe, still) issue in battlegrounds.

It will absolutely change how rogues think and play when demon hunters are around. You may have to start playing your rogue super aggressively or even acting as if stealth doesn't exist, and focus entirely on LOS and getting that first hit in at all costs. And you'll obviously need to not get caught going into stealth by a demon hunter.

The worst thing about this, though, without a doubt will be vanishing. It is a hard counter to vanish, and I feel like vanish's improved stealth should mitigate spectral sight, even if just for a couple seconds. But it probably won't work that way; you'll have to adapt.

I won't know exactly how bad it will be until this actually releases. I do know that it will dramatically change how rogues and feral druids (and hell, even mages and night elves) play the game. Hiding at a flag/node won't be nearly as effective anymore, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

My question is this, though: Does spectral sight simply allow demon hunters to see rogues, or can they attack them out of stealth directly with this? (IE: No need to use AOE, etc) I've played on the beta, but I never thought to test this specific thing out.

[ymirsson]

Why reply if you aren't going to move the conversation forward in a meaningful way?

Hey, you started slowing it down.
And if you think Demon Hunters will kill rogues, look at all the other things implemented to counter stealth which didn't kill rogue comps.
The openenr is important, but the rest of the performance is even moreso.
You didn't invite rogues in the last 34 seasons, just because they could start a duel stealthed.

[Wow]

Last I checked, its a 70% slow on the DH. DH's have no ranged AoE capability, nor any charge.

What?

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/188501-spectral-sight
30% slow

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/195072-fel-rush
Their 2 charge charge using this does not break spectral sight.
They can also use http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/198793-vengeful-retreat without breaking it.
http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/185123-throw-glaive
30y range ability

This will be a major issue in arenas, but a lesser (but severe, still) issue in battlegrounds.

In unrated bg's sure in rbg's it's going to be a massive problem. Since the dh can see through all objects they will call you going to a base before you ever get there from anywhere in the bg.

Here's an easy example dh is at lm they want to know where the other teams rogue i so all they do is hit spectral sight click on the rogue's name with something like bg target's and tell everyone where you are and are going.... Gl ever stealing any base with a dh on the other team. They can see where you are no matter where they are in the bg or arena.

[Raugnaut]

What?

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/188501-spectral-sight
30% slow

http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/195072-fel-rush
Their 2 charge charge using this does not break spectral sight.
They can also use http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/198793-vengeful-retreat without breaking it.
http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/185123-throw-glaive
30y range ability





In unrated bg's sure in rbg's it's going to be a massive problem. Since the dh can see through all objects they will call you going to a base before you ever get there from anywhere in the bg.

Here's an easy example dh is at lm they want to know where the other teams rogue i so all they do is hit spectral sight click on the rogue's name with something like bg target's and tell everyone where you are and are going.... Gl ever stealing any base with a dh on the other team. They can see where you are no matter where they are in the bg or arena.

Hrmm, it WAS a long while since I checked DHs, so guess so. Stealth/Mages are fucked against DHs then. Ah well.

[Boogums]

Puzzling that abilities have counters? I suppose we should remove interrupts then

Or just remove stealth.

[Queen of Hamsters]

My thoughts are that PVPers will complain loudly enough for it to be heavily nerfed or even removed. Or, at best, changed to not work in PVP settings.

My continued thoughts are that it's perfectly fine for there to be counters in the game.

[Boogums]

What a stupid thing to say. Stealth is not an "ability" as you would label "Fireball" for example. It's the core mechanic of the entire class. Without it, the class would be entirely different.

They basically introduced an ability on a short CD with a hefty duration that completely counters that. That is puzzling.

What a stupid thing to say. Casting spells is a core mechanic of the entire class, without it, the class would be entirely different, yet interrupts exist, so. take your salt elsewhere.

[Hotmail]

Every 30s is almost cheese status. How are Rogues even going to work in RBGs where every team will have a DH spotting for ghosts?

As if removing Burst of Speed wasn't enough of a nerf already.

[barrsftw]

As a rogue I'm not worried about it at all in arena. Just stay away from them until it cancels. You can still sap the other DD on their team who will try to break you out with AOE. Now BGs is another story.

[Googles]

And casting shit is the "core mechanic" of casters.

You can cast again in a brief time. Also, some casters have different schools or different abilities to use when locked down. They are only prevented briefly. You cast CONSTANTLY as a caster; yet you only get to Stealth a few times as a Rogue and it plays a pretty big factor in the outcome of the fight. Also, you can bait interrupts.

Please understand the difference.

It wasn't an issue for me in vanilla when humans has perception, I don't see why it would be now.

It wasn't a big issue until arena became a thing. Then Perception became ridiculous, especially because it had no drawbacks and was a racial rather than a class ability.

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Hey, you started slowing it down.

...what?

And if you think Demon Hunters will kill rogues, look at all the other things implemented to counter stealth which didn't kill rogue comps.
The openenr is important, but the rest of the performance is even moreso.
You didn't invite rogues in the last 34 seasons, just because they could start a duel stealthed.

I think this ability will become a huge factor in arenas. As I've said, we'll have to wait until release and play around with it to see how effective it really is. But simply reading from the description one can understand how big of an impact it has on Rogues or any stealth comps.

It's not even simply about Rogues. Imagine having a DH against RMD comps.

Rogues were used in comps not as damage dealers but as peelers and CCers and having those short periods of nuke. You needed occasional resets and clean openers to make the comps as viable as they are. Both of these situations require Stealth.

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What a stupid thing to say. Casting spells is a core mechanic of the entire class, without it, the class would be entirely different, yet interrupts exist, so. take your salt elsewhere.

Read my reply above regarding your same statement.

[ymirsson]

You can cast again in a brief time. Also, some casters have different schools or different abilities to use when locked down. They are only prevented briefly. You cast CONSTANTLY as a caster; yet you only get to Stealth a few times as a Rogue and it plays a pretty big factor in the outcome of the fight. Also, you can bait interrupts.

Please understand the difference.

4 Seconds of lockout can make all the difference, especially since most healers have most of their healing tools in one spell school.

And the important part is, that casting constantly is a casters part. Being constantly stealthed is not the rogues job. If you can't get into stealth at all when a DH appears, then it might become a problem. If.

[tiki854]

Spectral Sight should have a greater drawback then 70% movement reduc wihle still being able to use dashes. Either make the DH totally immobile while using it and it breaks upon movement, or get rid of the movement reductions and make it so that the hit that breaks DH out of spectral sight does more damage/guaranteed crit.

[Googles]

Being constantly stealthed is not the rogues job.

It seems you're so tunnel-visioned in your own argument you're barely making sense anymore to be honest.

Rogues not constantly being Stealthed is EXACTLY why this ability should NOT exist and why an ability such as Kick SHOULD exist.

A few seconds of lock out DOES NOT compare to a Rogue without the ability to Stealth. Interrupting only BRIEFLY stops the "core mechanic" of the caster class; removing Stealth is absolutely detrimental to a Rogue's capabilities.

I would hope you'd have understood the difference by now.

[ymirsson]

It seems you're so tunnel-visioned in your own argument you're barely making sense anymore to be honest.

Rogues not constantly being Stealthed is EXACTLY why this ability should NOT exist and why an ability such as Kick SHOULD exist.

A few seconds of lock out DOES NOT compare to a Rogue without the ability to Stealth. Interrupting only BRIEFLY stops the "core mechanic" of the caster class; removing Stealth is absolutely detrimental to a Rogue's capabilities.

I would hope you'd have understood the difference by now.

Where exactly does Spectral Sight remove Stealth?
And if i look into my spellbook, i see a few abilites requiring stealth, but even more abilities which function regardless. Removing Stealth, or more precisely the inability of the enemy to detect you, is indeed bad for the rogue, but so is kicking a caster. WIth a 30 Sec cooldown you should be able to get a few seconds of stealth regardless, unless you suck, in which case this whole conversation is moot.

[Googles]

Where exactly does Spectral Sight remove Stealth?
And if i look into my spellbook, i see a few abilites requiring stealth, but even more abilities which function regardless. Removing Stealth, or more precisely the inability of the enemy to detect you, is indeed bad for the rogue, but so is kicking a caster. WIth a 30 Sec cooldown you should be able to get a few seconds of stealth regardless, unless you suck, in which case this whole conversation is moot.

You don't seem to have ever taken PvP seriously to know how disadvantageous it is to have such a hard counter to Stealth. What bothers me is also you aren't bright enough to understand how it can take you out of Stealth "Where exactly does Spectral Sight remove Stealth?".

And to top it all off, you make such an immature and cheesy statement "few seconds of stealth regardless, unless you suck, in which case this whole conversation is moot.".

....ok

You really aren't the brightest cookie in the jar are you?

[ymirsson]

You don't seem to have ever taken PvP seriously to know how disadvantageous it is to have such a hard counter to Stealth. What bothers me is also you aren't bright enough to understand how it can take you out of Stealth "Where exactly does Spectral Sight remove Stealth?".

And to top it all off, you make such an immature and cheesy statement "few seconds of stealth regardless, unless you suck, in which case this whole conversation is moot.".

....ok

You really aren't the brightest cookie in the jar are you?

You don't seem to grasp the concept that rogues are not meant to be in stealth 24/7.
It's a classs mechanic, not a religion.

[Cygerstorm]

Spectral Sight is a single tool on a single class that counters one specific tool of another class. I'm rolling rogue after 12 years of Warlock, and I could not care less. If I go up against a Demon Hunter, I'll simply wait until I know he's used SS, then I'll dive in on him.

If you can't adapt to playing around enemy abilities, then why the heck are you PvPing?

Stealth is not an absolute requirement. Go play Outlaw, I can PvP on my Outlaw Rogue and barely ever use stealth outside of an opener because none of my tools need it besides Sap.

Demon Hunter's are not even out yet. Good grief.

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You don't seem to have ever taken PvP seriously to know...

The Devs don't even take PvP seriously. Its at best a secondary gameplay motivator to WoW's PvE content, so it will never be perfectly balanced.

[Googles]

You don't seem to grasp the concept that rogues are not meant to be in stealth 24/7.
It's a classs mechanic, not a religion.

You continue to prove that you have no idea what you're saying. This is the last reply I will give to you because by now I'm convinced you're a bad troll or truly clueless.

Who stated that Rogues should be in stealth 24/7? If you played Rogue for even 1 day you'd realize how important stealth is in a PvP environment.

There already ARE counters to stealth. One such as Spectral Sight is going over the line and is absolutely ridiculous. We SHOULD be able to open from Stealth most of the time. It's what our class is built around.

As you have so naively stated before, casters can be kicked. Do you think it's a smart thing for me to say that just because Rogues can be kicked out of stealth so easily then casters shouldn't be able to cast? Please understand and know the difference.

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Spectral Sight is a single tool on a single class that counters one specific tool of another class. I'm rolling rogue after 12 years of Warlock, and I could not care less. If I go up against a Demon Hunter, I'll simply wait until I know he's used SS, then I'll dive in on him.

If you can't adapt to playing around enemy abilities, then why the heck are you PvPing?

Stealth is not an absolute requirement. Go play Outlaw, I can PvP on my Outlaw Rogue and barely ever use stealth outside of an opener because none of my tools need it besides Sap.

Demon Hunter's are not even out yet. Good grief.

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The Devs don't even take PvP seriously. Its at best a secondary gameplay motivator to WoW's PvE content, so it will never be perfectly balanced.

There is such a thing as adaptation, and such a thing as complete ridiculousness. How is one to adapt to a skill that breaks your entire classes mechanism?

I don't blame you for making such an ill statement since you clearly state you don't play Rogue. In that case, you of course wouldn't care because you don't know how important Stealth is to the class.

Just because we're discussing the potential overpowerdness of a new skill doesn't mean that we can't adapt to it. You realize in every game that has ever existed there has always been a time where something has been considered overpowered? Do you think absolutely everything Blizzard releases is completely balanced and thought out?

Demon Hunters will be released very soon. Why even say something like "DH aren't even out yet"? Doesn't add anything to the discussion.

You claim we should play Outlaw. You claim you don't need it because only "Sap" requires it. Those are very inconsiderate things to say and only further invalidates your post. Tell that to any Rogue who has ever taken PvP seriously and see how they laugh you off.