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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    But you will have a sub-optimal setup, if you don't RtB for those abilties. The entire set of Outlaw is about getting the good buffs of RtB and then use the rest of your set to its optimal use. To make Adren Rush usefull, you pretty much have to use it during your un-optimal phase, which i just a wierd CD then and goes against all other playstyles.

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    Well would it not be even better, if you could have the ability to keep yourself from both starving yourself of energy and not capping? I will agree, that being starved of energy constantly feels horrible, since you are constantly waiting for the chance to use abilities, but having way too much energy is still bad.

    The entire point of energy is that you should never have infinite amount of it, but you should also have to work for to get the resourses. With the current Outlaw build, they might aswell remove your energy cost when you get 3+ RtB or when you hit Adren Rush.
    no because having adrush up instantly makes BT not the best buff, and you roll for SIW anyway

  2. #22
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    no because having adrush up instantly makes BT not the best buff, and you roll for SIW anyway
    But the nature of RtB makes it so that you can really roll for something specific. So in most raid situations, you are gonna get energy regen/haste together with other buffs, so you are still getting way too much energy.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    But the nature of RtB makes it so that you can really roll for something specific. So in most raid situations, you are gonna get energy regen/haste together with other buffs, so you are still getting way too much energy.
    But just because YOU feel overcapping destroys the playstyle does NOT make it a problem.
    We heard you, you dislike it, i can relate to that feeling, but unless you misplay, there is nothing to be done. I'm sure the feeling of wasted energy is not high priority on the work list of the class designers.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    But you will have a sub-optimal setup, if you don't RtB for those abilties. The entire set of Outlaw is about getting the good buffs of RtB and then use the rest of your set to its optimal use. To make Adren Rush usefull, you pretty much have to use it during your un-optimal phase, which i just a wierd CD then and goes against all other playstyles.

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    Well would it not be even better, if you could have the ability to keep yourself from both starving yourself of energy and not capping? I will agree, that being starved of energy constantly feels horrible, since you are constantly waiting for the chance to use abilities, but having way too much energy is still bad.

    The entire point of energy is that you should never have infinite amount of it, but you should also have to work for to get the resourses. With the current Outlaw build, they might aswell remove your energy cost when you get 3+ RtB or when you hit Adren Rush.
    a lot of cooldowns simplify the rotation, that's not necessarily a bad thing, ele shamans only spam lava burst, by having infinite energy you feel more powerful, which is exactly what a cooldown should make you feel like

  5. #25
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    Well would it not be even better, if you could have the ability to keep yourself from both starving yourself of energy and not capping? I will agree, that being starved of energy constantly feels horrible, since you are constantly waiting for the chance to use abilities, but having way too much energy is still bad.

    The entire point of energy is that you should never have infinite amount of it, but you should also have to work for to get the resourses. With the current Outlaw build, they might aswell remove your energy cost when you get 3+ RtB or when you hit Adren Rush.
    I agree the best solution would be a medium however....Blizzard isn't known for going for the middle ground. They tend to swing in extremes.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymirsson View Post
    But just because YOU feel overcapping destroys the playstyle does NOT make it a problem.
    We heard you, you dislike it, i can relate to that feeling, but unless you misplay, there is nothing to be done. I'm sure the feeling of wasted energy is not high priority on the work list of the class designers.
    Give it 2 tiers and it will become a problem. The reason why i am having problems with it is because it affects the use of haste on outlaw. By not getting anything from the increase energy regen, you are gonna have a pretty dead stat. This will make it so that Outlaw might decrease in useablity just because items in a tier is having alot of haste items.

    Again, im not saying it destroys the spec, it is just making it faulty: Making it easier for it to meet problems with gear. This is something, which can make Outlaw disfavored by most top guilds and that will therefore make it a bad spec because of that.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerra View Post
    Talent build I am using at present: http://www.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#CXrS

    Right now with my spec I am testing a few talents out for short term solo and group play and found that no matter what even with vigor taken for a higher energy cap that doing the rushed rotation as outlaw I still get wasted energy. It just generates to fast for be to do a saber slash or two maybe a free gun combo point then use a 5 cp finisher. It seems like whenever pistol shot is used free I get wasted energy. Has anyone else had this problem with trying to maximize dps during an adren cd?

    I have around 22% haste on my human and don't really have the issue in blade flurry as badly.
    All three specs have overflow issues.

    My opinion is that blizzard doesn't think we should worry overmuch about capping energy or combo points, that it shouldn't be a huge dps loss because of the plethora of resources we have now.

  8. #28
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    a lot of cooldowns simplify the rotation, that's not necessarily a bad thing, ele shamans only spam lava burst, by having infinite energy you feel more powerful, which is exactly what a cooldown should make you feel like
    But do you really feel powerfull just because of the infinite energy? Mostly, you feel powerfull because you are comboing things together in a smooth way and you get rewarded with high dmg, crits or extra resourses. Just look at the resent addition of the assa trinket if you want to see a class become very powerfull, when they hit the right buttons. Having a button, that when you push it, reduces your rotation to a 2 button system, is not a good CD. It might increase dps, but it is dumbs down gameplay, often leading to that you would rather want to not push the button, since playing without the dumbed down rotation is more fun.

    Also if you talk to some elemental shamans mains, they will proberly tell you, that they hate the lava CD, since it just makes you hit 1 single button for 15 sec. It is boring and does nothing to give complexity to the spec. It is also something, which you just use on CD and which have nothing fun about it.
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  9. #29
    Bloodsail Admiral Xerra's Avatar
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    I feel like I may be the only rogue using slice and dice >>... I get energy capped and I dont even get the RtB buffs.

  10. #30
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I agree the best solution would be a medium however....Blizzard isn't known for going for the middle ground. They tend to swing in extremes.
    Indeed they do, but that still opens them up for some critique around their class creation, especially when i can see a solution to the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xerra View Post
    I feel like I may be the only rogue using slice and dice >>... I get energy capped and I dont even get the RtB buffs.
    More players might end up going SnD, because of the energy capping and random factor to RtB. The same thing is happening to assa atm. Some of the talents are pretty much either must-haves or completly useless, because of how energy is working atm.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerra View Post
    I feel like I may be the only rogue using slice and dice >>... I get energy capped and I dont even get the RtB buffs.
    SnD is less dps than if you didnt take any talents from the top row, so i wouldnt recommend it

  12. #32
    Bloodsail Admiral Xerra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    - - - Updated - - -
    More players might end up going SnD, because of the energy capping and random factor to RtB. The same thing is happening to assa atm. Some of the talents are pretty much either must-haves or completly useless, because of how energy is working atm.
    I wasn't a fan of the idea of 'fishing' for the right buff and always liked SnD, not to mention it might have an impact on combat potency's energy procs from the offhand. Also nice to have control on my finishers more availability on damage or stunning ones. Though at times since I use vigor get bummed when SS procs when I am getting the last cp meaning I didnt get the free one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shaunika123 View Post
    SnD is less dps than if you didnt take any talents from the top row, so i wouldnt recommend it
    I found Mark for Death boring or rather bland unless soloing so in a group setting it would work great on trash but on a boss thats just a free finisher every 60 seconds... which outlaw doesnt have issues getting cps. The last one I loved the look of it, Death from Above just has a fun image about it but I rather get snd instaed of fish rtb for the right buffs as an alternative.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerra View Post
    I wasn't a fan of the idea of 'fishing' for the right buff and always liked SnD, not to mention it might have an impact on combat potency's energy procs from the offhand. Also nice to have control on my finishers more availability on damage or stunning ones. Though at times since I use vigor get bummed when SS procs when I am getting the last cp meaning I didnt get the free one.

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    I found Mark for Death boring or rather bland unless soloing so in a group setting it would work great on trash but on a boss thats just a free finisher every 60 seconds... which outlaw doesnt have issues getting cps. The last one I loved the look of it, Death from Above just has a fun image about it but I rather get snd instaed of fish rtb for the right buffs as an alternative.
    Well most bosses come with an add and true bearing lowers the CD on MfD as well, so even on ST fights it often ends up being more than 1 finisher every 60s.

  14. #34
    Seems like bad design that we have to sit on Opportunity procs during Adrenaline Rush. It's just a bandaid to a bigger underlying issue. I think a great start would be to take Opportunity's free Pistol Shot off the global cooldown (but then again Rogues have been asking for that for quite a while in the beta forums with no response from Blizzard)
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Indeed they do, but that still opens them up for some critique around their class creation, especially when i can see a solution to the problem.

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    More players might end up going SnD, because of the energy capping and random factor to RtB. The same thing is happening to assa atm. Some of the talents are pretty much either must-haves or completly useless, because of how energy is working atm.
    And why would "atm" even matter?

    "atm" the content is over, there is nothing to do and whatever calculations people have done are completely irrelevant

    SnD is a significant DPS loss over RtB @110 no matter how you look at it

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xerra View Post
    I wasn't a fan of the idea of 'fishing' for the right buff and always liked SnD, not to mention it might have an impact on combat potency's energy procs from the offhand. Also nice to have control on my finishers more availability on damage or stunning ones. Though at times since I use vigor get bummed when SS procs when I am getting the last cp meaning I didnt get the free one.

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    I found Mark for Death boring or rather bland unless soloing so in a group setting it would work great on trash but on a boss thats just a free finisher every 60 seconds... which outlaw doesnt have issues getting cps. The last one I loved the look of it, Death from Above just has a fun image about it but I rather get snd instaed of fish rtb for the right buffs as an alternative.
    MfD is the clear winner on any fight with adds (which is most) - especially if there are swarms which need to be burned quickly.

    You basically end up just spamming MFD - RT with BF up which is monstrous AoE damage.

    Also, its cooldown is reduced by True Bearing, meaning you knock its CD down to about 20sec or less with TB up.

    Finally, it means you can MFD + RTB right on the pull before opening with Ambush, so you get RTB buffs from the get-go instead of spending time building CP naturally without the buffs.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    Give it 2 tiers and it will become a problem. The reason why i am having problems with it is because it affects the use of haste on outlaw. By not getting anything from the increase energy regen, you are gonna have a pretty dead stat. This will make it so that Outlaw might decrease in useablity just because items in a tier is having alot of haste items.

    Again, im not saying it destroys the spec, it is just making it faulty: Making it easier for it to meet problems with gear. This is something, which can make Outlaw disfavored by most top guilds and that will therefore make it a bad spec because of that.
    Haste has been a binary stat for many specs, either very good or very bad. It's not a new problem, and it's never a simple solution at hand, unless you can scale the resource cost and the derived effect (e.g. damage) to the resouce generation, which in turn makes scaling generation of resources with item stats a superfluous mechanic.

    Or in simple terms: simply upping the cost on SS wouldn't fix the underlying problem.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    It's better then having so little resources that you can't do anything and sit there waiting. Better to be overcapped a bit then feeling helpless. That's just me though.
    Pretty much this. After what seems like years of being energy starved on all my specs, it's just feels so good to be able to swing away instead of staring at my screen waiting for my energy bar to fill up to a useful level. And for those of you who really see this as a problem, don't worry. Once we start levelling you'll be so energy starved you'll be wishing you had that energy regen back.

    Honestly, people complain about the oddest things.
    Last edited by Blayke; 2016-08-07 at 08:47 PM.

  19. #39
    I haven't seen any real response to ways to help your energy problem within the talent selections, so here is a few thoughts.

    TIER 1 - I think sword master is the right pick here. Like everyone is saying, during adrenaline rush you can ignore pistol shot (unless you have the legendary that buffs it.) Sword master will see a lot more use and less energy waste.

    TIER 3 - While vigor gives you the additional wiggle room, it also increases your regen rate. If you are going to cap either way, taking deeper stratagem will increase your damage, and give you an additional builder press or two. I would guess you end up with the same waste, but for more damage.

    TIER 5 - Killing Spree is probably the worst offender of this tier. 'Channeled' abilities potential resource loss is exacerbated by the increased regen. It would force a delay in it's use and that would likely end up a loss either way. Technically Cannonball Barrage would be the best to prevent energy loss, however Alacrity would be more helpful outside of AR phases. CB for big add/short fights, Alacrity for extended period fights or dungeons where you can prevent it from dropping much.

    TIER 6 - Slice and Dice is terrible on both fronts. It already equates to something like a 12% damage loss over Roll the Bones, and it will trigger combat potency more often resulting in additional wasted energy. Whereas with alacrity we have a smooth energy regen to consider as the buff increases, combat potency's proc is less reliable. You're more likely to misuse energy outside of AR as well as inside with it. Death from Above has the same issue as KSpree, your loss of character control for even a second is likely going to increase your energy waste. Therefore your most reasonable pick here is Marked for Death. You can use it for a quick RtB reroll, you can use it to make sure your Alacrity doesn't fall off, you don't lose control of your character, and it isn't an automatic dps loss (like SnD.)

    As for general tips to not overcap -
    Like it has been stated, ignore pistol shot during AR. Don't AR if you have any movement coming up in the fight. Avoid anything that would prevent you from smashing a button every global. Unless you have both the RtB's buffs that increases your chance to trigger a double swing from saber slash and increase your combo point gain by one, don't worry about losing a combo point to get to 6 (with deeper stratagem.) And, when you do start getting relics for your artifact, every the energy conservation ones.

    I have no idea if this is in fact optimum play, but if energy cap is a huge concern, these are the best options I see to preventing it.

  20. #40
    Dreadlord Mask's Avatar
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    Give it 2 tiers and it will become a problem.
    Bumping this thread a year and 3 tiers later. Yup, I am often energy capped and don't even bother using my free pistol shots most of the time because the global cooldown to do so is rarely available. It's a better use of my time to keep saber slashing instead. Free pistol shot really needs to be taken off the GCD, or something needs to be seriously redesigned with this spec.

    Idea: Take Pistol Shot off the GCD but give it a 3 second normal cooldown instead. This way you can always use the free proc, and sometimes you could even use it as an extra 40 energy dump which isn't tied to GCD in situations when you actually are capping energy no matter how fast you spam saber slash. Capping energy with no ability to dump it faster isn't fun.
    Last edited by Mask; 2017-12-20 at 12:04 PM.

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