[Legion] Terryn's guide to Affliction Warlock

[Biomega]

I'm a bit confused by talent choices. I've read through various guides in various places, like IV and LOSS, and I can't see a clear consensus on a few things.

One is the choice between Soul Conduit and Siphon Life. I've seen either recommended for multiple resp. single target, and now I don't know if it's typos, bad advice from someone, or just too close too call. My guess would be that SC is better for multiple targets because you tend to spend more shards there (more Agony ticks)? I don't trust SimCraft results at my low gear level, as it's so unoptimized there could be any number of distortion effects at play.

Another question concerns a legendary, Lethtendris' Power Cord when using Contagion - should I time UA re-applications so that they don't overlap, to give it a chance to proc? Or is it not worth the risk of increased downtime on Contagion?

[Deleted]

I see. Does it also double the chance then? like harvester of souls and compounding horror, do they go from 10% and 15% to 20% and 30% respectively in addition to doubling their proc damage?

iirc it does. I'm pretty sure it doubles evetything not explicitly excluded. I'm sure it doubles the Fatal Echoes trait from 6% to 12%

Compounding Horror can mostly be ignored

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I'm a bit confused by talent choices. I've read through various guides in various places, like IV and LOSS, and I can't see a clear consensus on a few things.

One is the choice between Soul Conduit and Siphon Life. I've seen either recommended for multiple resp. single target, and now I don't know if it's typos, bad advice from someone, or just too close too call. My guess would be that SC is better for multiple targets because you tend to spend more shards there (more Agony ticks)? I don't trust SimCraft results at my low gear level, as it's so unoptimized there could be any number of distortion effects at play.

Another question concerns a legendary, Lethtendris' Power Cord when using Contagion - should I time UA re-applications so that they don't overlap, to give it a chance to proc? Or is it not worth the risk of increased downtime on Contagion?

Siphon Life is reliable damage. Soul Conduit can be higher - or lower. Depends on the procs you get. Conduit tends to dominate the highest parses on WOL for this reason, peopel got lucky.

also depends on what legendaries you've got or decide to use.

[Deleted]

I see. Does it also double the chance then? like harvester of souls and compounding horror, do they go from 10% and 15% to 20% and 30% respectively in addition to doubling their proc damage?

For what its worth harvester of Souls doesn't get double proc rate under reap, pretty sure its meant to but it hasn't all expansion.

[Deleted]

Just got a 930 Oakhearts, is it really as bad as LOSS suggests? I remember it being the bees knees for an awful lot of specs on launch and now it seems to be valued more poorly than stat sticks ever were and is allegedly worse than a far lower ilvl plaguehive.

[pappaslop]

Just got a 930 Oakhearts, is it really as bad as LOSS suggests? I remember it being the bees knees for an awful lot of specs on launch and now it seems to be valued more poorly than stat sticks ever were and is allegedly worse than a far lower ilvl plaguehive.

I too remember at launch how sought after Oakheart's and Naraxas' were... Sadly, there are just far better trinkets at this point in the expansion. At launch, it was pretty much those trinkets or if you got a lucky stat stick proc (and then Plaguehive off Nyth).

I got a Spiked Tongue not too long ago, maybe a couple weeks ago in a weekly cache and DE'ed it ><

[Deleted]

I too remember at launch how sought after Oakheart's and Naraxas' were... Sadly, there are just far better trinkets at this point in the expansion. At launch, it was pretty much those trinkets or if you got a lucky stat stick proc (and then Plaguehive off Nyth).

I got a Spiked Tongue not too long ago, maybe a couple weeks ago in a weekly cache and DE'ed it ><

I'm aware there are better trinkets at this point and can see how stat sticks would start to out scale a proc thinket like this, what baffles me is why it's ranked lower than other proc trinkets that were notably weaker on launch, that makes me question how accurate the sims are, just wondered if anyone had any hands on experience to support or devalue them.

[pappaslop]

I'm aware there are better trinkets at this point and can see how stat sticks would start to out scale a proc thinket like this, what baffles me is why it's ranked lower than other proc trinkets that were notably weaker on launch, that makes me question how accurate the sims are, just wondered if anyone had any hands on experience to support or devalue them.

I wasn't trying to insinuate your awareness level - my apologies if I did.

I haven't personally compared launch trinkets but based on the sims via LOSS it would seem it's primarily because of scalability. I see Oakheart's being lower than Naraxas', Infernal Writ, Horn of Valor and Fulmination Charge? I cannot recall any launch affliction sims tbh because it wasn't as viable as it is today and I was focused on destruction/demonology far more at launch...

I will say that from my recollection, the majority of people at launch played destruction/demo and we all know the value of haste for demo. Therefore, comparing the state of a trinket at launch into affliction's current iteration is far different than comparing the same trinket (perceptively) to destruction's launch state. As in, I'd imagine its just a matter of perception - insert fruit comparison analogy.

[Rahmula]

Just got a 930 Oakhearts, is it really as bad as LOSS suggests? I remember it being the bees knees for an awful lot of specs on launch and now it seems to be valued more poorly than stat sticks ever were and is allegedly worse than a far lower ilvl plaguehive.

At launch, there weren’t a lot of options for good trinkets for affliction. The trinkets in Emerald Nightmare were mostly terrible.

The only good one for affliction was Plaguehive from first boss (one of our BIS at the time). After that (assuming you weren’t lucky enough to get an Arcano trinket), we went after Naraxas’s Spiked Tongue or a good stat stick. Oakheart was always below those, however Oakheart was just super easy to get. Plus we could proc it often. That’s why it became a default trinket by a lot of affliction locks.

Afflics always scale well with gear, but the more points we put into our artifact, our scaling went through the roof with mastery/haste. After getting Perdition trait, crit also began to scale really well.

Remember too, at launch, we didn’t even have Malefic Grasp. MG bumped up our scaling even MORE with those stats (particularly haste).

Haste/Mastery/Crit each play so well with our artifact and talents. Versa not nearly as much…

So now you look at your Oakheart, which is essentially a Versa Stat stick. Despite being a high ilvl, it doesn’t offer much more than that. At 930 ilvl, it procs a what? 400k-ish dot? That dmg is easily surpassed by what you’d gain from another stat in place of the Versa + whatever other proc on top of that.

[Tikishock]

Anybody else having issues with the Aff WA from here https://wago.io/EkZU94ADZ ?

I keep getting spammed this message in chat and can't figure out how to fix it. I'm using Part 2 only in the that link.

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[Donimic]

I'm a bit confused by talent choices. I've read through various guides in various places, like IV and LOSS, and I can't see a clear consensus on a few things.

One is the choice between Soul Conduit and Siphon Life. I've seen either recommended for multiple resp. single target, and now I don't know if it's typos, bad advice from someone, or just too close too call. My guess would be that SC is better for multiple targets because you tend to spend more shards there (more Agony ticks)? I don't trust SimCraft results at my low gear level, as it's so unoptimized there could be any number of distortion effects at play.

Another question concerns a legendary, Lethtendris' Power Cord when using Contagion - should I time UA re-applications so that they don't overlap, to give it a chance to proc? Or is it not worth the risk of increased downtime on Contagion?

Does anyone have an answer for this beyond the rng factor? I have been really curious as to why there is so much discrepancy from different guides as well.

[SpikeySquad]

I'm a bit confused by talent choices. I've read through various guides in various places, like IV and LOSS, and I can't see a clear consensus on a few things.

One is the choice between Soul Conduit and Siphon Life. I've seen either recommended for multiple resp. single target, and now I don't know if it's typos, bad advice from someone, or just too close too call. My guess would be that SC is better for multiple targets because you tend to spend more shards there (more Agony ticks)? I don't trust SimCraft results at my low gear level, as it's so unoptimized there could be any number of distortion effects at play.

Another question concerns a legendary, Lethtendris' Power Cord when using Contagion - should I time UA re-applications so that they don't overlap, to give it a chance to proc? Or is it not worth the risk of increased downtime on Contagion?

Does anyone have an answer for this beyond the rng factor? I have been really curious as to why there is so much discrepancy from different guides as well.

Firstly for simming it doesn't matter what level you are. For me the talents are really close on ST but I have the belt so if RNG is in my favour I should gain more from SC. SL and MG are not a very good mix gameplay wise in my opinion (though naturally you have a bit more mobility) but choose what you prefer. It could also be argued that SL is a better talent when you have less gear due to less shard regen and/or no belt.

How you use belt depends more on your first talent. If you're MG you continue with your clear defined drain cycles and if the belt procs that's a bonus. If you are using WiA then you will unlikely ever get full Contagion uptime anyhow however you want that as high as possible so let UA drop. Naturally you do want to buff the times you do more damage and dump more UAs (when you have extras) when you have procs up.

A lot of people usually wear Netherlord with 6 piece tier on the more ST fights which also has no effect on SL.

Best thing is to check log statistics to see worth of talents and how many people use them. Norm/HC fights like Harj, Mistress, Host (downstairs) have adds that will not fully benefit from SL however when you throw UAs on them you have the SC factor.

Also more targets=more shards (from both agony and drain/UA sniping)=more UAs making SC more valuable. On some fights as well I can really struggle at times with having enough seconds/globals to spend UAs, UA on death and drain snipe then another DoT to keep up would only add to the issues.

Ultimately experiment but personally only fight I have found any real value for SL at the moment is DI heroic (not taking into account mythic fights).

[Cheze]

I'm pretty sure two target sustained cleave (i.e. inquisition) is the only real situation where SL makes sense; vs one target or short lived adds you'd rather have conduit, and vs more than two targets you don't really have time to maintain it.

even on mythic inquisition most people are using death's embrace rather than SL, though if you have the ring maybe it'd be worth running

[Liarparadox]

Does anyone have an answer for this beyond the rng factor? I have been really curious as to why there is so much discrepancy from different guides as well.

I'm going to give a different answer than the previous two. Not so much as to disagree; but coming from a bit of a different angle.

And it's also just a partial answer here. I think the problem is that a straight up guide for Affliction is pretty messy. There's no really simple answer to the questions often being asked because some suggestions of talents/gear depends on the fight and gear you have. SC is great to take for example if you have the class ring. But without the ring and on a fight like Goroth or DI I personally wouldn't take SC unless you happen to love RNG style play. And I just hate the possible swings in dps. Now when I finally get my hands on the class ring...that's a different story. I'll likely take SC on most (maybe even every) fight. As of now, and this might be different for different gear, SC sims (and in game) is decently lower dps unless RNG is quite good. I favour consistency.

Then again, DE is also a strong possibility if your raid tends to have a few deaths and the last phase of the fights are longer. Really, it's one of the things right now that is quite frankly amazing about Affliction: we are SO versatile and have so many great builds for any number of raid comps/skill/targets/mechanics/content.

I wouldn't worry toooo much about figuring out a cookie cutter build/talent (or "which legendary is best" type questions). There isn't one for TOS. Aff locks respec from fight to fight.

Some of the old questions like "what's best" are simply outdated, left over from previous patches that simply need to go away. What's best is highly contextual now. I think we've been in this sorta shift for so long now people are getting tired of answering these outdated questions tbh. So when someone asks SC or SL, people just skip it because the answer is too contextual (my opinion: unless you have the class ring, SL is usually the safer bet, but you really can't go wrong in that tier anyway; no talent will break you); or if one prefers, the question needs to go away/be asked differently. I know I know, guides seem to be worded in different ways so the question seems rather legit. Guides don't know what your gear looks like: they are necessarily rough. You can sim yourself or test it out in a real raid environment (LFR even if you must).

I guess another reason some people won't post replies to these sorts of questions is because there is always someone who comes along and just wants to split hairs or quibble about something rather irrelevant. And for those of us who don't live on these forums, it's time consuming to explain why it is they are wrong or misleading or that they've misunderstood aspects of the post/guides/suggestions and so on.

By all means check to see what others are using in logs, as long as you understand that just because the top people used SC or DE or whatever talent doesn't mean you should. You have to consider their gear, RNG, fight, comp, who was alive and so on (I'm quite convinced that most people have no clue how to analyze logs even for something like 'what gear should i use on fight x'). I know that's not the kind of answer people are looking for; they just want to be told what to do. But they answer is too contextual for simply: use SC.

Having wrote all that, LOSS is pretty darn good (and the IV guide for locks this xpac hasn't been updated regularly enough to be a reliable source). But read the AFF guide on LOSS very carefully, every sentence. It's more nuanced than people typically seem to think.

TLDR: SC or SL is a mistaken question on it's own. We'd need more information about gear/context/legendaries/content.... And even then the answer might be different as soon as you pick up your next legendary or your raid comp/skill changes. Be cautious of answers as well that seem pretty simple: I mean people often just assume you're doing mythic. And the truth is most people aren't doing mythic and still want to optimize, which is completely fair; but difficulty level is relevant to answering these sorts of questions.Those who simply suggest one or the other aren't doing you any favours. The answer is that it's highly contextual.

[SpikeySquad]

Then again, DE is also a strong possibility if your raid tends to have a few deaths and the last phase of the fights are longer. Really, it's one of the things right now that is quite frankly amazing about Affliction: we are SO versatile and have so many great builds for any number of raid comps/skill/targets/mechanics/content.

Yeah we do have more options at the moment which is a nice place to be in. I have to say I forgot to touch much on DE which thankfully you did. I have the class ring and wear it on nearly every farm fight so the question, assuming no Netherlord, is actually should we use DE, SL or SC?

Again like I said before people should experiment and see what fits them.

[Liarparadox]

Again like I said before people should experiment and see what fits them.

Yeah absolutely. That's very much what people need to do.

[Moggie]

even on mythic inquisition most people are using death's embrace rather than SL, though if you have the ring maybe it'd be worth running

It's still not worth it. You're busy dotting both the bosses and the adds leaving little to no time for SL. Don your Corruption ring, spec into DE and you're all set...and your raid will thank you for making sure adds are slowed to boot. Think the only fight you might consider SL is M Avatar but even that's iffy.

[Biomega]

It's still not worth it. You're busy dotting both the bosses and the adds leaving little to no time for SL. Don your Corruption ring, spec into DE and you're all set...and your raid will thank you for making sure adds are slowed to boot. Think the only fight you might consider SL is M Avatar but even that's iffy.

SL on Avatar seems very much padding for most of the fight, while DE would help in one of the most critical phases of the fight (downstairs). I suppose it's TECHNICALLY a damage increase on Maiden during shield? Is that worth it, though?

I have to agree that SL is just not very useful in the fights we have right now. The only fight I ever use it on is heroic DI, so if heroic is your jam by all means. Though to be fair, SL and SC are probably decently close in performance on most straight ST fights.

[Deleted]

Anyone have any idea how strong a 910 obelisk of the void is? Just got one while trying to go for an arcanocrystal - looks like it'd still math out as worse on average than a 900 mastery stat stick unless you had burst windows it lining up with it, wondered if anyone had any experience making it work with periodic UA dumps within the proc window, otherwise I'll just stick with my stick.

[Biomega]

Anyone have any idea how strong a 910 obelisk of the void is? Just got one while trying to go for an arcanocrystal - looks like it'd still math out as worse on average than a 900 mastery stat stick unless you had burst windows it lining up with it, wondered if anyone had any experience making it work with periodic UA dumps within the proc window, otherwise I'll just stick with my stick.

As always, the answer is to sim it. It's the best approximation to relative performance values we have.

[Biruta]

Guys, what is the ideal mastery value for affliction warlock?
I have 151% flat and both Simulationcraft and Raidbots are telling me to put crit and versatility, but if I swap some mastery items for some with versatility and crit my dps decreases in raids.
My stats atm:
151% mastery
20% haste
23% crit
4% versatility