Recent Nerfs - Blizzard feedback threads

[dubious_doomhammer]

I'm not sure if Blizzard frequents MMO champ, but here are some Blizzard forum threads where we can hopefully air our grievances with the recent nerfs.

Legion DK Feedback thread:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...3575959?page=1

Forum post where Lore says "Death Knights are meant to have lower mobility than other melee classes, but feel very strong once they’re in range.":
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...7846433?page=1

Not sure if it'll matter, but maybe if enough people express their distaste, they'll listen.

[Hctaz]

Where is all of this whenever Frost gets nerfed? Lol look you unholy dks should go post about how frost is too low compared to unholy and then we can push for unified class buffs together. As it stands, it seems like Frost keeps getting shafted abd the majority of the DK playerbase doesn't care because they like Unholy, but the second unholy is nerfed it's "Take to the forums my brethren!" As a frost player, this is super annoying and, for some reason, how it's been for a really long time. We just want to be considered a "viable" choice. As it stands, unholy has TOO many strengths and not enough weaknesses. Removing unholy's increased move speed as well as nerfing the talent that made unholy's need to be in melee significantly lower than frost is a good thing overall.

[dubious_doomhammer]

Where is all of this whenever Frost gets nerfed? Lol look you unholy dks should go post about how frost is too low compared to unholy and then we can push for unified class buffs together. As it stands, it seems like Frost keeps getting shafted abd the majority of the DK playerbase doesn't care because they like Unholy, but the second unholy is nerfed it's "Take to the forums my brethren!" As a frost player, this is super annoying and, for some reason, how it's been for a really long time. We just want to be considered a "viable" choice. As it stands, unholy has TOO many strengths and not enough weaknesses. Removing unholy's increased move speed as well as nerfing the talent that made unholy's need to be in melee significantly lower than frost is a good thing overall.

You're just as capable of starting a thread for frost as I was for unholy.

[Hctaz]

You're just as capable of starting a thread for frost as I was for unholy.

We do all the time. Sometimes these threads are like a slap to the face. No you don't need to get these changes reverted. It's a GOOD thing that brings the two specs closer in line and gets rid of SOME of the utility that unholy has. They can buff our numbers from here but I don't see these changes as bad at all. Maybe both dk specs can get some buffs elsewhere -shrug- but these changes are good imo.

[dubious_doomhammer]

We do all the time. Sometimes these threads are like a slap to the face. No you don't need to get these changes reverted. It's a GOOD thing that brings the two specs closer in line and gets rid of SOME of the utility that unholy has.

You should be advocating for Frost buffs then, not Unholy nerfs ... it does the class no good having people like you trying to make us worse overall.

Also, here's a quote from the thread with Death's Advance removal that I made:

If anything Unholy (which I play) should keep Death's Advance and you should give it to Frost which is suffering badly from movement speed.

[Hctaz]

You should be advocating for Frost buffs then, not Unholy nerfs ... it does the class no good having people like you trying to make us worse overall.

No, I advocate for Unholy changes. One of the bigger issues is just Unholy's impressive toolkit and having a passive movement speed buff over Frost as well as having a ranged scourge strike that was ALSO the best choice was just further complicating things. The two specs should have their own strengths and weaknesses but as it was before, unholy excelled at nearly every aspect. Now they're just not AS insane at being out of melee range and having to move. They're still miles ahead of frost with their pet and their larger collection of ranged moves. I'm not saying that Unholy and frost can't get their numbers buffed in unison together, I just think that unholy should lose a little bit of their toolkit to keep the choice of which spec to play more ambiguous. Is frost or unholy better at this aspect? Can frost and unholy both have fights where you'd prefer to be the other? Raiders will never pick frost as long as unholy has the solution to everything.

[psyquest]

No, I advocate for Unholy changes. One of the bigger issues is just Unholy's impressive toolkit and having a passive movement speed buff over Frost as well as having a ranged scourge strike that was ALSO the best choice was just further complicating things. The two specs should have their own strengths and weaknesses but as it was before, unholy excelled at nearly every aspect. Now they're just not AS insane at being out of melee range and having to move. They're still miles ahead of frost with their pet and their larger collection of ranged moves. I'm not saying that Unholy and frost can't get their numbers buffed in unison together, I just think that unholy should lose a little bit of their toolkit to keep the choice of which spec to play more ambiguous. Is frost or unholy better at this aspect? Can frost and unholy both have fights where you'd prefer to be the other? Raiders will never pick frost as long as unholy has the solution to everything.

you are going to make a lot of friends for asking for a nerf for your own class instead of asking for a buff for a spec that evidently from logs do not require one.

no one stopping you from playing unholy.

[Shaddam IV]

Wow, are we having a Frost vs Unholy faction war in Acherus?

[Hctaz]

you are going to make a lot of friends for asking for a nerf for your own class instead of asking for a buff for a spec that evidently from logs do not require one.

no one stopping you from playing unholy.

First off: The majority of what I've heard has frost lower than unholy by a large enough margin that it's a concern for frost dks. Secondly: I'm NOT asking for nerfs. I don't know how neither of you could glean that from my previous comments. Unholy has TOO MUCH that they can do. They're too diverse. The only thing that I can see frost being better at is sustained 3-4 add/boss cleave or burst AoE damage with Sindragosa's Fury. Unholy having more boss uptime, better extended AoE, better cooldowns, higher sustained damage etc... It was just too much. I think this change is perfectly acceptable and if Unholy DOES need a buff (which I will reserve judgment for until I see that this is the case) then I would be perfectly fine with seeing their damage buffed in a way that doesn't widen the utility gap further. The issue is, I can't really think of something that could feasibly buff unholy's single target, close range melee damage aside from festering strike but that would be kinda silly. A buff to death coil would increase range damage, an increase to scourge strike's damage would also have to come with an increase to CS which would increase ranged damage, a buff to your ghoul would increase "ranged" damage in a sense... Buffing festering wounds would cause AoE cleave to increase, buffing virulent plague will cause AoE and ranged damage to increase. See the issue? All of their attacks are just too good at doing too many things.

[Darkfie1d]

No, I advocate for Unholy changes. One of the bigger issues is just Unholy's impressive toolkit and having a passive movement speed buff over Frost as well as having a ranged scourge strike that was ALSO the best choice was just further complicating things. The two specs should have their own strengths and weaknesses but as it was before, unholy excelled at nearly every aspect. Now they're just not AS insane at being out of melee range and having to move. They're still miles ahead of frost with their pet and their larger collection of ranged moves. I'm not saying that Unholy and frost can't get their numbers buffed in unison together, I just think that unholy should lose a little bit of their toolkit to keep the choice of which spec to play more ambiguous. Is frost or unholy better at this aspect? Can frost and unholy both have fights where you'd prefer to be the other? Raiders will never pick frost as long as unholy has the solution to everything.

So basically your logic is because frost sucks Unholy should be nerfed? lel

Do you ever consider personal choice in spec? Playstyle, feel of the class, depth? The problem here isn't that Unholy has a more impressive toolkit, it's the fact that Frost's play style is not as appealing. It feels neglected and the solution to that is not reducing UH's output.

[Hctaz]

Wow, are we having a Frost vs Unholy faction war in Acherus?

I guess... a lot of frost dks are sick of being told to go Unholy for expansion after expansion after expansion. I stay frost because I dislike unholy so much that my damage suffers and I usually parse in or around the top 100 frost dks when I was raiding hardcore in MoP and Cata so the damage difference was actually relevant enough... but it still sucks that I'm essentially gimping my raid tier after tier because I prefer frost so much that I can't seem to want to put the effort into min-maxing unholy like I have for frost every tier since ICC.

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So basically your logic is because frost sucks Unholy should be nerfed? lel

Do you ever consider personal choice in spec? Playstyle, feel of the class, depth? The problem here isn't that Unholy has a more impressive toolkit, it's the fact that Frost's play style is not as appealing. It feels neglected and the solution to that is not reducing UH's output.

Sure it is. We're the same class. We're competing with each other for what we can do. They can't give BOTH of us everything because then what's the difference? If they want to diversify the two specs and give people a reason to play whichever they prefer then they need to reduce the overall toolkit of each to show some clear strengths and weaknesses between the two.

No class or spec should be a jack of all trades unless there's a tradeoff. What is Unholy's tradeoff?

[Zeek Daniels]

I like the class fantasy of a frost DK. I have never played or will ever play blood or unholy. If frost does lower dps i will still pick frost. A raider shouldnt have to be told to change specs just because another does better dps.

Now whether one spec should be nerfed or another buffed is a conversation im not going to have.

[psyquest]

I guess... a lot of frost dks are sick of being told to go Unholy for expansion after expansion after expansion. I stay frost because I dislike unholy so much that my damage suffers and I usually parse in or around the top 100 frost dks when I was raiding hardcore in MoP and Cata so the damage difference was actually relevant enough... but it still sucks that I'm essentially gimping my raid tier after tier because I prefer frost so much that I can't seem to want to put the effort into min-maxing unholy like I have for frost every tier since ICC.

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Sure it is. We're the same class. We're competing with each other for what we can do. They can't give BOTH of us everything because then what's the difference? If they want to diversify the two specs and give people a reason to play whichever they prefer then they need to reduce the overall toolkit of each to show some clear strengths and weaknesses between the two.

No class or spec should be a jack of all trades unless there's a tradeoff. What is Unholy's tradeoff?

frost mages dont ask for fire mage to be nerfed as an exemple. Here you trying to justify nerfing your own class. We understand you are salty. Thats ok. I would love to be able to play frost again. But current frost is BORING. read that again. Not a problem with output, it is good. You have just heard it, I havent, I checked it.

Yet while I would love to play frost, I am not silly enough to ask for a nerf to evidently the only non boring spec we have left.

You should take a break. Write a convincing post regarding frost.

[Deleted]

I guess... a lot of frost dks are sick of being told to go Unholy for expansion after expansion after expansion. I stay frost because I dislike unholy so much that my damage suffers and I usually parse in or around the top 100 frost dks when I was raiding hardcore in MoP and Cata so the damage difference was actually relevant enough... but it still sucks that I'm essentially gimping my raid tier after tier because I prefer frost so much that I can't seem to want to put the effort into min-maxing unholy like I have for frost every tier since ICC.

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Sure it is. We're the same class. We're competing with each other for what we can do. They can't give BOTH of us everything because then what's the difference? If they want to diversify the two specs and give people a reason to play whichever they prefer then they need to reduce the overall toolkit of each to show some clear strengths and weaknesses between the two.

No class or spec should be a jack of all trades unless there's a tradeoff. What is Unholy's tradeoff?

The biggest problem I have with frost right now is the removal of multistrike. Seeing how poorly mastery scales with the change on Killing Machine to only affect Obliterate and such it's essentially a 2h spec with enforced dual weild. I'd imagine there was some sort of plan behind it but nothing compared to what unholy got.

While I rarely touch the dps specs appart from the odd PvP session, but I felt the Unholy nerfs were absolutely justified. At least from what I've seen on the beta, Unholy seems nearly perfect in every regard, and as the whole idea of the rework was to give every class / spec some weakness instead of everyone having a complete generic toolkit, that just didn't seem right.

[Hctaz]

frost mages dont ask for fire mage to be nerfed as an exemple. Here you trying to justify nerfing your own class. We understand you are salty. Thats ok. I would love to be able to play frost again. But current frost is BORING. read that again. Not a problem with output, it is good. You have just heard it, I havent, I checked it.

Yet while I would love to play frost, I am not silly enough to ask for a nerf to evidently the only non boring spec we have left.

You should take a break. Write a convincing post regarding frost.

Frost mages don't ask to nerf fire because the two specs don't have too much issue coexisting. One might be better numbers wise, but in terms of toolkits they've both been pretty similar. They have some strengths and weakness that balance each other out and you could usually make an argument to play either of them on any given fight or at least make them interchangeable within the same raid.
Also:you say non boring but I have always enjoyed frost more. It's more fun to me. I personally feel like Unholy is boring so... opinion's really shouldn't be thrown into an argument about pure facts.

Anyway: the fact is that Unholy definitely had (and still does have) a much better overall toolkit than frost. Two specs should not have such a huge gap between their toolkit in the same class. It pigeonholes raiders into picking the spec that's better in most situations (even more so now that artifacts weapons are a huge investment) as it's just safer to gear up. If unholy is better in 80% of the fights then there is an issue. This will make things a little closer in line but not a whole lot. They still have quite a lot going for them that is just better than what frost has. And buffing frost will not help anything, they would have to start giving it toolkit buffs. Obliterate dealing 30% more damage is not going to fix the issues. Obliterate having a 30 yrd range would. That's the issue.

[Blurr]

Personally I always felt like Death's Advance was part of Unholy's class fantasy. To me, UH is coming at you with Unholy speed, spreading unnatural diseases and bringing undead minions down upon you. For reference I always felt like Frost was more the slower but unstoppable whirlwind that freezes the blood in your veins.

Unfortunately it seems to me like Unholy's spent the majority of its existence at the bottom of the pack and now that we're in a potentially good spot, we're getting slapped back down. It's like Blizzard often comes up with really fun and interesting ideas for Unholy and then slowly nerfs it back to being boring.

[Deleted]

I like the class fantasy of a frost DK. I have never played or will ever play blood or unholy. If frost does lower dps i will still pick frost. A raider shouldnt have to be told to change specs just because another does better dps.

Now whether one spec should be nerfed or another buffed is a conversation im not going to have.

He can always get benched. No progress guild would take you with this attitude. You play a class, not a spec.

[dubious_doomhammer]

Frost mages don't ask to nerf fire because the two specs don't have too much issue coexisting. One might be better numbers wise, but in terms of toolkits they've both been pretty similar. They have some strengths and weakness that balance each other out and you could usually make an argument to play either of them on any given fight or at least make them interchangeable within the same raid.
Also:you say non boring but I have always enjoyed frost more. It's more fun to me. I personally feel like Unholy is boring so... opinion's really shouldn't be thrown into an argument about pure facts.

Anyway: the fact is that Unholy definitely had (and still does have) a much better overall toolkit than frost. Two specs should not have such a huge gap between their toolkit in the same class. It pigeonholes raiders into picking the spec that's better in most situations (even more so now that artifacts weapons are a huge investment) as it's just safer to gear up. If unholy is better in 80% of the fights then there is an issue. This will make things a little closer in line but not a whole lot. They still have quite a lot going for them that is just better than what frost has. And buffing frost will not help anything, they would have to start giving it toolkit buffs. Obliterate dealing 30% more damage is not going to fix the issues. Obliterate having a 30 yrd range would. That's the issue.

You're more worried about bringing unholy down than moving frost up. A conversation with you is pointless.

[RevanTN]

Ugh. I would rather have the passive 15% with Death's Advance then Wraith Walk. Waith Walk in general is SO bad. We can't do ANYTHING while it's active. Apply diseases while running to another part of the boss encounter? Nope. Combat res an ally whilst trying to run to that one mob so you can interrupt it? Nope.

These changes would make sense if Wraith Walk wasn't such a stupid spell to begin with. I just don't understand the balancing team sometimes. This is horrible. I bet no one there actually plays an unholy death knight in a raid setting.

[Hctaz]

Unfortunately it seems to me like Unholy's spent the majority of its existence at the bottom of the pack and now that we're in a potentially good spot, we're getting slapped back down. It's like Blizzard often comes up with really fun and interesting ideas for Unholy and then slowly nerfs it back to being boring.

...what? Where have you been? Unholy was superior to frost throughout most of the prior expansions. Unholy was undoubtedly better in Dragon Soul, most if not all of MoP, and the majority of Warlords sans the first three days of 6.2 whenever frost was so good everybody raged for nerfs and we became trash tier again.

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You're more worried about bringing unholy down than moving frost up. A conversation with you is pointless.

No, I'm worried about bringing them closer in line together is all. I don't think frost needs more tools for their arsenal. What would they even give us? Howling Blast was nerfed in order to kill off that pesky masterfrost build that plagued us since Firelands. I'm 100% for this change but it has unfortunately meant that we now suffer in the ranged department even more so with some of the changes to unholy like giving them the potential of having a ranged scourge strike and even single target epidemic isn't so bad if you're out of range. Frost also used to be competitive at sustained AoE damage and better at sustained cleave. Unholy had pretty good AoE prior, but think it's pretty crazy now for sure. Once again, the change to Howling Blast has made it so that Frost no longer has the "hit this button for a bunch of AoE" where as unholy has the AoE pop of festering wounds, as well as epidemic, defile/DnD and the scourge strike cleave (which makes AoE festering wounds even better if you can manage the debuff on multiple targets to pop multiple wounds at once with your cleave scourge strike) while standing inside of it. Frost does have Frostscythe but not only is it a talent, it's also half as strong as it should be with non crits for... I guess to make sure masterfrost doesn't come back. I'm also okay with this but once again, not as great at AoE because of the masterfrost build and Blizzard's desire to remove it. They want us to have a reason to hit obliterate.

Honestly Unholy should have never had Death's Advance in the first place. It should have been frost instead and then maybe the specs would have had similar utility. Unholy would have shined in the long range department with a slower time to get back into melee range and frost would have just moved a little faster to compensate for their lack of ranged utility.