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  1. #41
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Did everyone miss the part where we're all allowed to play all three specs now? We don't have to be Frost DKs or Unholy DKs; we can be both and Blood too!

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by cujoe View Post
    The removal of Death Advance from UH is sensible. Why should a disease spreading , zombie summong Knight of Death be any faster than their blood and frost brethren? There is no justification class fantasy wise and with WWs reduced CD and our ranged capabilities we don't need it anyway. The whole argument that we had it since ever is just stupid. Things change. Deal with it.
    Actually the unholy auras improving movement speed and regeneration has been the class fantasy of an unholy death knight since Warcraft 3.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by RevanTN View Post
    Actually the unholy auras improving movement speed and regeneration has been the class fantasy of an unholy death knight since Warcraft 3.
    And if it makes sense to remove it in the current context of the game I see nothing wrong with it. Just because it was OK in WC3 doesn't mean it makes sense to keep it that way now in WoW.

  4. #44
    If Unholy isn't allowed to move faster than the rest then please lets talk about the assload of stuns and slows Frost has...

  5. #45
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Statix View Post
    Oh, didn't even notice they removed Death's Advance from Unholy. What the hell are they doing, man... Unholy has always had that passive movement speed increase...

    Unholy had too much mobility? Ehh, dudes, have you checked Windwalker Monks with Roll, Tiger's Lust, Flying Serpent Kick and a 10% passive movement speed increase!?
    Or Rogues, with Sprint, Shadowstep, Shadowstrike (as Subletly) and a passive 15% movement speed increase!?

    There's no logic here. Figuring out Blizzard's motives and reasoning is more difficult than figuring out what the universe is.
    Yeah I can't think of a single reason why an agile martial artist and a dexterous ninja would be able to move faster than an undead knight in a fantasy computer game.

    None at all.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by cujoe View Post
    The removal of Death Advance from UH is sensible. Why should a disease spreading , zombie summong Knight of Death be any faster than their blood and frost brethren? There is no justification class fantasy wise and with WWs reduced CD and our ranged capabilities we don't need it anyway. The whole argument that we had it since ever is just stupid. Things change. Deal with it.
    Cause from Day 1 Unholy was about adding haste. Heck they even probably took it from the Haste spell Death Knights used in Warcraft 2, and Unholy Aura in Warcraft 3. Unholy Presence gave haste and move speed. It's about using unholy power to quicken movement with unnatural speed. It could even be argued to make more sense than diseases for unholy, but that's beside the point.

    Here's how silly these changes have been: Unholy always had bonus move speed as part of their class flavour, in the form of Unholy Presence. Death's Advance was given to Unholy to stop them from being slowed so much. Then they gave DA to *all* specs as a talent. Then they changed Death's Advance into Wraith Walk for everyone, removed Unholy Presence, and baked it's movement speed into the new Death's Advance for Unholy again, so they retain part of the Unholy Presence that they used to have. Only now they've decided to just take that away too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cujoe View Post
    And if it makes sense to remove it in the current context of the game I see nothing wrong with it. Just because it was OK in WC3 doesn't mean it makes sense to keep it that way now in WoW.
    Yeah but you could say that about anything. "Just because druids had shapeshift forms in the past doesn't mean it can't be changed."

  7. #47
    They can nerf the class all they want. I've played Unholy since Wrath and nothing will ever make me reroll.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    No, I advocate for Unholy changes. One of the bigger issues is just Unholy's impressive toolkit and having a passive movement speed buff over Frost as well as having a ranged scourge strike that was ALSO the best choice was just further complicating things. The two specs should have their own strengths and weaknesses but as it was before, unholy excelled at nearly every aspect. Now they're just not AS insane at being out of melee range and having to move. They're still miles ahead of frost with their pet and their larger collection of ranged moves. I'm not saying that Unholy and frost can't get their numbers buffed in unison together, I just think that unholy should lose a little bit of their toolkit to keep the choice of which spec to play more ambiguous. Is frost or unholy better at this aspect? Can frost and unholy both have fights where you'd prefer to be the other? Raiders will never pick frost as long as unholy has the solution to everything.
    Trust me dude, frosts mobility is the least of the specs concerns. Frost playstyle is pretty garbage and boring while doing terrible damage to top it off. Yes this is only prepatch and things will be different in legion. Instead of trying to balance both specs by nerfing one and doing nothing to the other is bad for dks as a class. Why not just give frost the nessesary buffs to bring it to unholys level instead of just nerfing unholy and bringing it down to frosts level. This just makes us weaker in general. I don't get blizzards logic on this. Their whole balance team has completely missed the point on what balance should be about. Balance should take every class/spec into consideration not just the specs within each class if that makes any sense.

  9. #49
    Warchief Statix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runeforge View Post
    Yeah I can't think of a single reason why an agile martial artist and a dexterous ninja would be able to move faster than an undead knight in a fantasy computer game.

    None at all.
    Explain then why Paladins and Warriors are more mobile than Death Knights. Explain to me how Rogues can move faster in Stealth. Does that make any sense? You're sneaking, yet you move faster... The lack of mobility should be compensated by being able to do more DPS, Blizzard even said that themselves. But really, all I've seen is a DPS nerf to Unholy Death Knights.

    This shouldn't be based on logic, or class fantasy, lore, whatever; it should be based on fairness, on balance between the classes.
    Statix will suffice.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwarden View Post
    So which artifact will this "DK" be feeding all his artifact power cookies?

    Here's how it'll work in Legion: you don't play "DK", you play the spec of whichever artifact you built, and if that artifact spec is weak then you struggle and get benched. Specs are important and they must be competitive with each other now more than ever.

    Unholy was - and possibly still is - king, and Frost was the doghouse spec, they needed to be brought closer to each other. I realize "nerf" is a dirty word that makes people angry, but game devs can't just buff and buff and buff some more, because then they end up with power creep, and power creep breaks games. And it's important to do as much of it before launch, because the changes will hurt way more after people have already invested in a spec that turns out to be a raiding/pvp/whatevertheywant to do dead-end.
    Here is a post where I wish MMO-champ had up votes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FertsBlert View Post
    I will be feeding all my artifact power to Blood while leveling then once I have the first gold trait unlocked I will swap to feeding either Frost or Unholy for Dungeons by the time I am geared enough for raids I will be gaining around 1500-2000 Ap per world quest item so catching up either of the DPS Arti's or Filling more of the Blood Arti if I'm tanking is where I'll be.

    Once you have 10 or so levels of research you gain enough Arti power for a good half dozen traits on an brand new artifact from ONE Ap item and you can easily get 3-4 a day.
    And if you are an adult that isn't inclined to play a video game for 3+ hours a day?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    Did everyone miss the part where we're all allowed to play all three specs now? We don't have to be Frost DKs or Unholy DKs; we can be both and Blood too!
    Yes, and how many hours will it take to ensure all 3 artifacts are on the same level?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galathir View Post
    If Unholy isn't allowed to move faster than the rest then please lets talk about the assload of stuns and slows Frost has...
    All of which are almost entirely irrelevant in PVE.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Killyox View Post
    He can always get benched. No progress guild would take you with this attitude. You play a class, not a spec.
    Yup that's probably why he's still stuck in lfr... The bottom line is that frost gameplay is so damn boring that why should a spec that takes half a brain to play reap the most reward? Unholy has and will always be harder to play than frost. Unholy's playstyle was always better than frost as well. The most logical explanation here is since unholy is harder to play than frost, unholy is the more rewarding spec once played to perfection. I have no problems with this, frost to me is more of the beginner dk dps spec and unholy is the spec that all players switch to when they are more experience and want to get the most out of the class in general. I personally mained frost when I started playing my dk only to switch to unholy for mythic progression because it performed better and my raid wouldn't even let me or any other dks play frost. I thought I would've hated unholy but I ended up loving it and I never specc'd back into frost again. I still haven't even tried frost in prepatch and I don't plan on it anytime soon. Unholy is the harder and thus more rewarding spec. unholy is kind of dumbed down in legion compared to other xpacs but it is still way harder than frost.

  12. #52
    I believe that the Frost Dk just need some Damage buffs.Maybe the Artifact makes up for that,he is fun to play just need more damage.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by 0verdose View Post
    Yup that's probably why he's still stuck in lfr... The bottom line is that frost gameplay is so damn boring that why should a spec that takes half a brain to play reap the most reward? Unholy has and will always be harder to play than frost. Unholy's playstyle was always better than frost as well. The most logical explanation here is since unholy is harder to play than frost, unholy is the more rewarding spec once played to perfection. I have no problems with this, frost to me is more of the beginner dk dps spec and unholy is the spec that all players switch to when they are more experience and want to get the most out of the class in general. I personally mained frost when I started playing my dk only to switch to unholy for mythic progression because it performed better and my raid wouldn't even let me or any other dks play frost. I thought I would've hated unholy but I ended up loving it and I never specc'd back into frost again. I still haven't even tried frost in prepatch and I don't plan on it anytime soon. Unholy is the harder and thus more rewarding spec. unholy is kind of dumbed down in legion compared to other xpacs but it is still way harder than frost.
    Boring/fun is entirely subjective. To me, relying on pets, dots and magic to deal death while you stand in the back with the women and effeminate limp-wristed weaklings is boring. But whatever floats your boat.

    As for difficulty, every spec now has a range of complexity depending on talent selection. Chose all passive talents that don't require stack monitoring and every spec is very simple. Chose all of the active maintenance talents and every spec becomes much more intricate. If you go the latter route in Legion, frost is arguably more difficult than unholy. In any case, if frost is so easy, you should be able to pull straight 95+ percentile ranks right?

    But regardless, your assertion that difficult specs to master should be rewarded with more damage output is obviously not supported by Blizzard, i.e. see Mage.
    Last edited by Fenrkyr; 2016-08-03 at 12:49 PM.

  14. #54
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrkyr View Post
    Here is a post where I wish MMO-champ had up votes.
    So, if Frost is worst/less fun than Unholy, then they should make Unholy worst/less fun so both specs be at the same level. Yup, Blizzard logic.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrkyr View Post
    Boring/fun is entirely subjective. To me, relying on pets, dots and magic to deal death while you stand in the back with the women and effeminate limp-wristed weaklings is boring. But whatever floats your boat.

    As for difficulty, every spec now has a range of complexity depending on talent selection. Chose all passive talents that don't require stack monitoring and every spec is very simple. Chose all of the active maintenance talents and every spec becomes much more intricate. If you go the latter route in Legion, frost is arguably more difficult than unholy. In any case, if frost is so easy, you should be able to pull straight 95+ percentile ranks right?

    But regardless, your assertion that difficult specs to master should be rewarded with more damage output is obviously not supported by Blizzard, i.e. see Mage.
    Yeah, I know they don't do the harder class = more rewarding class method when it comes to balance, they definitely should though. Just trying to figure out how blizzards balance team thinks about issues like this, but I doubt they even think about balance between all classes anymore. All they do is nerf certain specs to balance it out with the other spec in the class. They never do class balancing which is why mages and rogues are insanely overpowered while we dks (mainly frost atm) get the shit end of the stick. In terms of your boring/fun statement, to me it's not so much about the abilities/certain theme'd attacks it's more about the gameplay, at first I didn't like that unholy was a pet spec and thought the minions were funny looking, but since the gameplay was great I grew to love it. Unholy always required way more micro managing, disease tracking and resource pooling than frost did. Alot of min/maxing/thought and planning was involved if you wanted to get the most out of Unholy's rotation. I couldn't say the same about frost. Personally I just don't like frost anymore, but will definitely play it if it becomes the more superior spec when raids come out in legion. Whatever it takes to get the most out of my dk is always the number 1 priority.
    Last edited by 0verdose; 2016-08-03 at 01:01 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrkyr View Post
    All of which are almost entirely irrelevant in PVE.
    Unless you're in a fight with adds that need to be stunned/interrupted/positioned. Still irrelevant?

  17. #57
    Deleted
    Just here to remind you, wait till you get the artifact to a certain level before moaning too much about imbalance, thank you. Current tuning is designed around level 110 and having artifact.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by cujoe View Post
    And if it makes sense to remove it in the current context of the game I see nothing wrong with it. Just because it was OK in WC3 doesn't mean it makes sense to keep it that way now in WoW.
    Unholy Aura was also a presence since day 1.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrkyr View Post
    Here is a post where I wish MMO-champ had up votes.
    And if you are an adult that isn't inclined to play a video game for 3+ hours a day?
    You'll be slower, the world quests take maybe an hour a day, dungeons take maybe another one or 2 or 5 or 6 depending on how many you chain. The main part is the artifact research and that is done via an NPC in your Order Hall and takes a couple of days per one... but doesn't need your input at all other than a couple of button clicks.

    But really the amount of time is irrelevant it's an MMO it is designed from the ground up to suck in vast amounts of time, perhaps if you don't have the time to spend you should take up a different style of gaming and stop fucking this one up for those of us who do?
    Last edited by FertsBlert; 2016-08-03 at 01:25 PM.
    When I was younger I used to hope bad things wouldn't happen.
    Now I just hope they're at least funny when they do.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Galathir View Post
    Unless you're in a fight with adds that need to be stunned/interrupted/positioned. Still irrelevant?

    And those fights where you need to stun or interrupt usually have to happen with particular timing. During a cast or an enrage.
    A 5 second lead in for a group stun that burns your best dps cooldown, or a 10% chance on a critical obliterate to stun aren't either not on demand or reliable.
    While unholy has 100% chance to happen immediately stuns, via ghoul or asphyxiate, albeit only to a single target.

    For slows unholy can spec for a better toolkit than frost. While frost has the better baseline.
    Both have chains of ice, and remorseless winter being the only baseline advantage frost has.
    Talent wise the only slow frost can gain is white walker while unholy essentially stole frosts old chillblains with destabilising infestation, giving them a ranged spammable aoe slow that refreshes itself for 6 seconds around the main target, so it actually turns into a 9 second slow.

    So overall it would seem unholy has better on demand single target stunning capabilities and can exceed frost in the slowing area with frost only having an edge in group stunning by blowing a dps cooldown and combining it with remorseless winter if they can stay within range for 5 seconds.

    I hardly classify that as an assload of stuns or slows for frost, especially when comparing the specs.
    Last edited by Skraal; 2016-08-03 at 01:48 PM.

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