Brewmaster in Mythic+

[Deleted]

i never said you have to abuse OD to be good in mythic+. It's more of a when shit hits the fan you are going to be fine while other tanks might struggle a lot. Your mastery and healing orbs generation is extremely high even above 35% (with 4 or 5 mobs attacking you). I also never was the first one to die during any run (you can argue that the healer had to heal me significantly more and couldnt heal the others), which shows that BRM does more than fine in mythic+

Very well, point taken. I do however find OD a rather lackluster design as its almost identical to the old Expel Harm although stronger, passive (I like pressing buttons) and CD-free (atm). Btw i don't know why you're referring to mastery but when you say healing orbs generation is extremely high outside OD, is that because of the high burst damage intake in mythic+? Mechanical speaking isn't it the same as it is on live where we have to take "100% hp damage" to generate 1 orb?

Now for something slightly off-topic, doesn't the BRM lack an "offensive off-tank ability/mechanic"?
Someone posted how BRM doesn't have the ability to trade their defensive capability/resource to something offensive when needed or when you have "time to spare" e.g.:
Paladin - Seraphim, costs Shield of the Righteous
warrior - Focused Rage, costs rage
Guardian - Maul (is it still horrible low tuned?), costs rage
DK don't have a dump mechanic? But their runic power is never wasted as the Death Strike absorb keeps stacking.
DH - dunno.

I think you get the point, while energy might be our resource what we actually generate is brew CD reduction. Unlike the others, when we're "capped" we can't dump it to something offensive. At this point its just nitpicking as they ain't changing anything other than numbers but its still mechanically lacking in the "fun dps" department compared to the rest of the tanks. Didn't mean to derail too much.

[Deleted]

blackout combo is more or less a trade off ability, where you can choose to use it defensively (brews) or offensively (tiger palm)

[Blur4stuff]

they are capable and you will be able to do well in mythic+ with a good healer

just keep in mind that other tanks will perform better and feel less stressful, especially from a healer's point of view.

[skeptyc]

they are capable and you will be able to do well in mythic+ with a good healer

just keep in mind that other tanks will perform better and feel less stressful, especially from a healer's point of view.

How so? I've tanked quite a few dungeons on Beta, and I have yet to have a healer tell me that I'm a problem to heal - most of the time, I get feedback on how smooth it was, and I never spiked and didn't need as much healing as some other tanks (due to Orbs/Celestial Fortune/Purifying high stagger).

I'm not sure where this negative view of how BrM plays is coming from.

[Deleted]

blackout combo is more or less a trade off ability, where you can choose to use it defensively (brews) or offensively (tiger palm)

I can see why you would use Blackout Combo as a reference but its a bit lackluster comparison. For instance with the other tanks you don't want to waste rage/runic power when close to cap and you're not in danger - thus you make a decision to spend it, perhaps on a dps ability or buff to end the encounter faster. It also empowers the player to be more than just a punching bag.

BS is a part of our rotation and the only decision making is whether or not its aligned with BoF (defensive and offensive) or KS (brew generator). TP is more of a brew generator than it is offensive and you'll want BoF on a quick CD for the dps and benefits. In the end it barely makes any difference as BS is on a 3< sec CD and all the abilities are used on CD while off-tanking anyways and its impact is minuscule. Perhaps rather than calling it minuscule its just very limited in decision making and effort to squeeze out a tiny bit of extra dps (if any).

If we had an ability to spend a IB/PB brew charge to amplify something in our arsenal then it would bring us more in line with the others in terms of trading survival for dps when "capped". This could also motivate players to play more efficiently in terms of managing brew stacks, especially as the gear improves and you'll likely spend less time on IB/PB thus making it a "waste". Actual we may not even need a new button to push but perhaps a different kind of interaction between the BRM toolkit that is baseline.

[Kageyn]

How so? I've tanked quite a few dungeons on Beta, and I have yet to have a healer tell me that I'm a problem to heal - most of the time, I get feedback on how smooth it was, and I never spiked and didn't need as much healing as some other tanks (due to Orbs/Celestial Fortune/Purifying high stagger).

I'm not sure where this negative view of how BrM plays is coming from.

That negative view is coming from streamers and players trying to maintain 100% ISB uptime which means they never use purifying brew. Really popular tank streamers are also rushing to a golden dragon trait even though they're some of the worst things in the Brewmaster artifact. Brewmaster may not take less damage than another tank, and we sure as hell don't have our ridiculous guards, but we are smooth as hell and fun to boot.

[Xequecal]

blackout combo is more or less a trade off ability, where you can choose to use it defensively (brews) or offensively (tiger palm)

There are honestly very, very few players good enough at the game that Blackout Combo is worth it. Theoretically it's the strongest talent, but it's so difficult to use correctly it makes, say, WOTLK-era feral DPS look easy. Every time you switch a piece of gear and have a different amount of haste, the rotation changes.

[keqe]

There are honestly very, very few players good enough at the game that Blackout Combo is worth it. Theoretically it's the strongest talent, but it's so difficult to use correctly it makes, say, WOTLK-era feral DPS look easy. Every time you switch a piece of gear and have a different amount of haste, the rotation changes.

Not really. Regardless of haste you just use every second global on BoS. You barely cap energy by doing so at any haste level (=not really wasting Tiger Palms). Doesn't seem that complicated.

More haste you get the less you wait partial globals and more keg smashes you do so the energy equilibrium barely changes.

[Xequecal]

Not really. Regardless of haste you just use every second global on BoS. You barely cap energy by doing so at any haste level (=not really wasting Tiger Palms). Doesn't seem that complicated.

More haste you get the less you wait partial globals and more keg smashes you do so the energy equilibrium barely changes.

The real strength of Blackout Combo is that the "pause stagger" functionality lets you shove more damage taken into your stagger, purify more, and thus take less damage. Of course, you can't use ISB every 3 seconds, you'll run out of charges. So you have to figure out what the optimal ISB/purify ratio is for your level of haste, and then do your best to apply that in real time while simultaneously lining up your ISBs and your Purifies with BoS procs so you don't miss any stagger pauses or extra elusive brawler stacks. While you're doing all that, you also need to be making sure you're hitting Keg Smash on CD and having a BoS proc available when it comes off CD in order to get the improved version of that as well.

It's strictly better than High Tolerance when used perfectly, because pause stagger lets you stagger more damage than the extra 10% and the improved Keg Smash gives you more brews to use than the haste from HT, but good fucking luck with that.

[Tech614]

The real strength of Blackout Combo is that the "pause stagger" functionality lets you shove more damage taken into your stagger, purify more, and thus take less damage. Of course, you can't use ISB every 3 seconds, you'll run out of charges. So you have to figure out what the optimal ISB/purify ratio is for your level of haste, and then do your best to apply that in real time while simultaneously lining up your ISBs and your Purifies with BoS procs so you don't miss any stagger pauses or extra elusive brawler stacks. While you're doing all that, you also need to be making sure you're hitting Keg Smash on CD and having a BoS proc available when it comes off CD in order to get the improved version of that as well.

It's strictly better than High Tolerance when used perfectly, because pause stagger lets you stagger more damage than the extra 10% and the improved Keg Smash gives you more brews to use than the haste from HT, but good fucking luck with that.

Blackout Combo is the more efficient talent, and it's not as hard to use as you're claiming.

However I still see high tolerance being the talent of choice for under geared progression depending on how hard a boss hits. The lower geared you are, and the harder a boss hits ratio will in effect make high tolerance a good talent even with it being far less efficient then a perfectly used blackout combo.

For Mythic+ though as this thread is about I see Black Out Combo as king and very little use for high tolerance(which feels exclusively like an undergeared progression raid talent to me)

[Deleted]

Not really. Regardless of haste you just use every second global on BoS. You barely cap energy by doing so at any haste level (=not really wasting Tiger Palms). Doesn't seem that complicated.

More haste you get the less you wait partial globals and more keg smashes you do so the energy equilibrium barely changes.

is blackout strike every 2nd global really the way to go after the haste changes?

[keqe]

is blackout strike every 2nd global really the way to go after the haste changes?

You still cap a bit of energy at points so I am not sure but it is certainly possible.

100% best way for DPS for sure though.

[Jaigar]

I like blackout combo right now with the current set bonus generating a lot of brews, but I'm not sure how it will play out in Mythic+.

As a side note, I'm curious about the average overheal on a BrM using HT vs. Blackout Combo. While damage taken with High Tolerance may be higher, is damage smoothing worth it?

[Deleted]

You still cap a bit of energy at points so I am not sure but it is certainly possible.

100% best way for DPS for sure though.

source?

i`m asking because that's not something i was able to reproduce at beta (lvl 110, specced into special delivery) and i was doing higher dps on a 5 minute target dummy fight with using blackout strike every 3rd global instead of every 2nd. Had 23% haste (no bloodlust)

[Xequecal]

Blackout Combo is the more efficient talent, and it's not as hard to use as you're claiming.

However I still see high tolerance being the talent of choice for under geared progression depending on how hard a boss hits. The lower geared you are, and the harder a boss hits ratio will in effect make high tolerance a good talent even with it being far less efficient then a perfectly used blackout combo.

For Mythic+ though as this thread is about I see Black Out Combo as king and very little use for high tolerance(which feels exclusively like an undergeared progression raid talent to me)

Even if you only get 25% uptime on the pausing, it's still going to shove way more of the damage you take into the stagger dot than the 10% High Tolerance gives you will. Improved Keg Smash will also grant you more brews than the haste from High Tolerance will. This is not close, the only caveat is you have to execute it perfectly.

[Knom]

source?

i`m asking because that's not something i was able to reproduce at beta (lvl 110, specced into special delivery) and i was doing higher dps on a 5 minute target dummy fight with using blackout strike every 3rd global instead of every 2nd. Had 23% haste (no bloodlust)

Were you proccing Special Delivery as well or just did not touch your brews?

[keqe]

source?

i`m asking because that's not something i was able to reproduce at beta (lvl 110, specced into special delivery) and i was doing higher dps on a 5 minute target dummy fight with using blackout strike every 3rd global instead of every 2nd. Had 23% haste (no bloodlust)

I just thought it would make sense to be so. You do a lot more Blackout Strikes by doing so, your every tiger palm is empowered, and if you don't cap energy that much you didn't really lose any tiger palm usage either. At least in theory it sounds like it should be only a gain. At worst it should be a BoS for non-empowered TP trade. And BoS should be stronger.

[Deleted]

Were you proccing Special Delivery as well or just did not touch your brews?

did not touch my brews at all, didn't use RJW either because i would waste one blackout strike combo (furhtermore special delivery is bugged for target dummys, they don't procc at all for me)

when you use blackout strike every 3rd global i also use every blackout strike on either Tiger Palm or BoF (for maximum dps) and don't delay keg smash at all (had around 6,4s keg smash cd). The difference between using it every 3rd globhal and every 2nd global comes down to delaying ur rotation to not delay blackout strike (which is about 0.4 seconds) or not delaying anything and using tiger palm instead. If we had sims we could probably figure it out but it basically comes down to that.

[keqe]

Yeah but my point is that you don't cap enough energy to actually lose that much tiger palms. If you use BoS every third GCD, you should run out of energy(assuming perfect rotation someone in BrM thread said 60% haste was needed to not cap energy). Of course you shouldn't delay keg smash if both BoS and Keg smash come out of CD at the same time (happened at my haste level at least). In every other situation you prioritize the "every second rule".

Even if the energy wasn't a problem, those non-empowered tiger palms you get can't beat BoS in DPS as I see it.

But sims would be great for problems like this as you said.

[stross01]

they are capable and you will be able to do well in mythic+ with a good healer

just keep in mind that other tanks will perform better and feel less stressful, especially from a healer's point of view.

This is bleakly far from the truth.