Brewmaster in Mythic+

[Deleted]

assuming perfect rotation someone in BrM thread said 60% haste was needed to not cap energy

Do not remember the exact number but the statement(and calculation on it) was mine. However it was that 60% or more haste caps your energy (which you probably meant anyways).

But the thing is, if at 0 haste you only use every second global for TP/KS then you have a 9s rotation of BoK->KS->BoK->TP->Bok->TP -> Repeat, meaning 90 energy regenerated and 90 energy spent, which means spending exactly what you generate. (No matter which hastelevel this will always stay exactly the same)

BUT you will be:
- delaying KS for 1 second
- using no BoF
- using no T15 (could use the passive thou)

While the usual rotation (BoK->Filler->Filler) has a problem with haste scaling since you will loose BoKs, your suggestion wastes 1s KS and BoF. This will balance out at some hastelevel (the more haste, the better it gets to only use 1 filler) but in the end this is only a gain damage wise, while tanking is always better with 2 fillers (even at 50% haste)

[keqe]

Do not remember the exact number but the statement(and calculation on it) was mine. However it was that 60% or more haste caps your energy (which you probably meant anyways).

But the thing is, if at 0 haste you only use every second global for TP/KS then you have a 9s rotation of BoK->KS->BoK->TP->Bok->TP -> Repeat, meaning 90 energy regenerated and 90 energy spent, which means spending exactly what you generate. (No matter which hastelevel this will always stay exactly the same)

BUT you will be:
- delaying KS for 1 second
- using no BoF
- using no T15 (could use the passive thou)

While the usual rotation (BoK->Filler->Filler) has a problem with haste scaling since you will loose BoKs, your suggestion wastes 1s KS and BoF. This will balance out at some hastelevel (the more haste, the better it gets to only use 1 filler) but in the end this is only a gain damage wise, while tanking is always better with 2 fillers (even at 50% haste)

Yeah it was you and you got my wrongly written thing right

But how would it work if you remove that delay from KS? Meaning that outside of that moment you use BoS as every second ability, but not delay keg smash for it.

[Deleted]

Well that would be:

KS->BoK->TP->Bok->TP -> repeat for an 8 second window with 90 energy usage, so you would swap out some TPs every now and then for a BoF. But here is the funny part:
Up until 33% haste the rotation above does not have more BoKs per minute than
BoK->KS->Filler->BoK->Filler->Filler-> repeat

They both have 2 BoKs per KS and it is impossible to fit in 3 without wasting KS CD since they misalign (8sec and 3 sec)

[stross01]

Well that would be:

KS->BoK->TP->Bok->TP -> repeat for an 8 second window with 90 energy usage, so you would swap out some TPs every now and then for a BoF. But here is the funny part:
Up until 33% haste the rotation above does not have more BoKs per minute than
BoK->KS->Filler->BoK->Filler->Filler-> repeat

They both have 2 BoKs per KS and it is impossible to fit in 3 without wasting KS CD since they misalign (8sec and 3 sec)

I'm not sure if you're aware, but their cd's are reduced by haste.

With 16% haste, my Blackout Strike is 2.59 sec, while Keg Smash is 6.9 seconds. 16% of 3 sec is .48 seconds 16% of 8 seconds is 1.28 seconds.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but their cd's are reduced by haste.

With 16% haste, my Blackout Strike is 2.59 sec, while Keg Smash is 6.9 seconds. 16% of 3 sec is .48 seconds 16% of 8 seconds is 1.28 seconds.

You might not be aware, that if everything scales with haste, then NOTHING changes no matter the haste level (except the fact that gcd is 1 second but if you use it every second global that needs 50% haste)
On top of that your way of calculating new cast times is wrong (its not Casttime * (1 - haste), it is in fact Casttime / (1 + haste))

[stross01]

You might not be aware, that if everything scales with haste, then NOTHING changes no matter the haste level (except the fact that gcd is 1 second but if you use it every second global that needs 50% haste)
On top of that your way of calculating new cast times is wrong (its not Casttime * (1 - haste), it is in fact Casttime / (1 + haste))

I was trying to imply that they're scaling at different rates, but that seemed to fly right over.

Also, I have no calculation, just stating solid observation.

[Deleted]

well its not solid observation, its plain wrong. See this example:

you have two abilities, one with 3 sec CD (called A) and one with 6 (called B). They do scale at "different rates" if you want to say it that way, but gaining or loosing haste does not change the sequence AT ALL. It would always stay ABAABAABA etc. Because while the 3 second ability does only loose half the cooldown via haste, it is also cast twice as much, resulting in the same net speed up. The only limitation would be the not changing GCD but then again that would need 50% haste to matter.

If all things(CDs, Energy rate, GCD etc.) scale linear with haste, then the rotation DOES NOT CHANGE, it only happens faster. Like I said in this case GCD does not scale but that only matters beyond 50% haste. It might be a bit hard to grasp but I hope this helped : )

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I have no calculation, just stating solid observation.

And on this part: your observation was right ( 3 / 1.16 ~= 2.59) but your conclusion was wrong ("16% of 3 sec is .48", implying that 16% haste would put BoK to 2.52, which you clearly proved wrong yourself)

edit: fixed typo

[stross01]

well its not solid observation, its plain wrong. See this example:

you have two abilities, one with 3 sec CD (called A) and one with 6 (called B). They do scale at "different rates" if you want to say it that way, but gaining or loosing haste does not change the sequence AT ALL. It would always stay ABAABAABA etc. Because while the 3 second ability does only loose half the cooldown via haste, it is also cast twice as much, resulting in the same net speed up. The only limitation would be the not changing GCD but then again that would need 50% haste to matter.

If all things(CDs, Energy rate, GCD etc.) scale linear with haste, then the rotation DOES NOT CHANGE, it only happens faster. Like I said in this case GCD does not scale but that only matters beyond 50% haste. It might be a bit hard to grasp but I hope this helped : )

- - - Updated - - -



And on this part: your observation was right ( 3 / 1.16 ~= 2.59) but your conclusion was wrong ("16% of 3 sec is .48", implying that 16% haste would put BoK to 3.52, which you clearly proved wrong yourself)

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What? WHAT? lol. What the fuck are you even talking about? Are we even on the same tangent?

In what twisted world did you think I would suggest that haste increased the cooldown of the ability? Good lord.

Also, I would enjoy seeing some logs of you at 33-50% haste without energy cap without serious ability neglect.

Infracted

[Deleted]

Oh noez a typo ... but seriously don't act stupid, 3 + .48 is not 3.52 that was an obvious typo of 2.52.

But since you are again completly off the point and don't seem to get it, this will be my last statement on the issue, its OT anyways.

[meob]

I'm sitting at 100-110 casts per minute and really trying to use everything I have, but it's like 70ish% RJW uptime (mostly demoted to pickup tool) and 90-95% keg smash usage.

Do you actually know any details about legendaries regards to possible buffs/nerfs? I mean no way the waist is going to stay like that with 25% of purified damage as heal. Last raid I was ramping up to 100-250% stagger every 10 seconds, that's ~15-25% max health back and the ox orbs actually heal easily half of the remaining damage taken on their own. I was sitting among healers in throughput already, but that sounds plain silly together with AW traits to come.

[stross01]

Oh noez a typo ... but seriously don't act stupid, 3 + .48 is not 3.52 that was an obvious typo of 2.52.

But since you are again completly off the point and don't seem to get it, this will be my last statement on the issue, its OT anyways.

That's a lot of effort and thought put into a typo.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

They aren't amazing, but have a really good kit for dungeons that don't threaten them heavily.
They have amazing mobility, an AOE stun, and really good burst aoe.
They just dont have the crazy tank things that Blood etc has.

[stross01]

Do you actually know any details about legendaries regards to possible buffs/nerfs? I mean no way the waist is going to stay like that with 25% of purified damage as heal. Last raid I was ramping up to 100-250% stagger every 10 seconds, that's ~15-25% max health back and the ox orbs actually heal easily half of the remaining damage taken on their own. I was sitting among healers in throughput already, but that sounds plain silly together with AW traits to come.

They haven't changed a single thing about any of the legendaries except the boots since they were put in, both pre-vendor-tested and after.

[meob]

They haven't changed a single thing about any of the legendaries except the boots since they were put in, both pre-vendor-tested and after.

*wet dreams*

[Deleted]

They aren't amazing, but have a really good kit for dungeons that don't threaten them heavily.
They have amazing mobility, an AOE stun, and really good burst aoe.
They just dont have the crazy tank things that Blood etc has.

and what crazy tank thing does blood have? apart from dancing rune weapon and vampiric blood they have nothing and both are worse than ISB/purify combo (not even talking about FB here). There is also a much higher risk of getting one shot by trash packs than there is for brewmasters (and all the self heal in the world is useless when u are dead). Blood just has 0 damage reduction tools and are in my opinion way worse than brewmasters in mythic+ (yes i tested both)

[Deleted]

and what crazy tank thing does blood have? apart from dancing rune weapon and vampiric blood they have nothing and both are worse than ISB/purify combo (not even talking about FB here). There is also a much higher risk of getting one shot by trash packs than there is for brewmasters (and all the self heal in the world is useless when u are dead). Blood just has 0 damage reduction tools and are in my opinion way worse than brewmasters in mythic+ (yes i tested both)

Mass Grip is insanely powerful dps wise for the group. But both blood / vengeance will be kinda squishy at high mythic+.

[Saiyoran]

Blood has some insane damage output, far and away the best among tanks. It's also pretty self-sustaining outside of Tyrannical bosses (where yes, Brew/Prot Warr/Guardian have the advantage), which is helpful for trash in allowing your healer to dps more or focus on healing others. Brewmaster isn't squishy but does need some trickle of healing outside of cheesing OD, which Blood and Guardian just don't. Brewmaster has probably the second lowest AoE dps outside of Exploding Keg, only really beating Guardian.

Overall, of you're struggling against Tyrannical bosses, Brewmaster is going to be a good pick, but otherwise Blood is the way to go for utility, dps, and self-sustain. Even on bosses, Prot Warrior is just as tanky and does more dps, it's only drawback being no self-healing and unreliable add pickup on large groups.

[Deleted]

i agree that aoe dps for brewmaster is on the low side and i hope that something will get done about that, but from a defensive standpoint i dont see any advantage for blood over brewmasters. Yes, brewmasters might need the most external healing but that was discussed often enough, that this isn't that much of a problem (smoothing damage, no overheals on brewmasters, etc.). Utility wise i take leg sweep anyday over mass grip (which also has a way lower cooldown with 45sec vs. 2 min)

[Saverem]

At 110, the top dog right now are Guardian Druids. They have crazy good mitigation and their mastery is OP. Prot Wars are second in terms of mitigation, they have the best tool kit to deal with the most kinds of tanking situations.

BDKs and VDH lack a bit in mitigation, but make up for it with better damage and some good utility (DK has THE BEST TANK DPS, especially AoE. In fact, BDKs will probably be topping the meters in trash pack damage), brez, aoe grip/snare, DG. DH has better mobility, better mitigation than DKs and sigils for utility.

I'd say Prot Paladins and BrMs are trailing a bit. Prot Pallies are the kings of utility though, they'll make one of the best OTs for raids because of their utility and BrMs are pretty good on mitigation and has the best mobility. BrMs have the highest learning curve of all the tanks still, so if you like a challenge, they're still the tanks to go for. They also have pretty good AoE DPS.

[Saverem]

There are honestly very, very few players good enough at the game that Blackout Combo is worth it. Theoretically it's the strongest talent, but it's so difficult to use correctly it makes, say, WOTLK-era feral DPS look easy. Every time you switch a piece of gear and have a different amount of haste, the rotation changes.

I disagree. The CD on BOS is on a low enough CD that you can always make sure you have it up for abilities that need them. Need D? Use it before KS/Brews/BoF once it's artifacted. Want to increase DPS? use it before TP. It's sitting at around 2.5s CD with basic haste levels, so you can pretty much use it before ever CD heavy ability (KS/Brews/BoF).