Germany planning deep changes due to the threat of terrorism

[Wyxoor]

How exactly would any of these changes help fight terrorism? Sounds like just a set of random measures aimed at making some non-native Germans feel unwelcome in the country - that's not how you fight terrorism, that's how you support it.

You sound like the kind of person that wants to fight terrorism with hugs and kisses, the kind of person that wants to replace the military with LGBTQ squad (sweden). Well sorry to break it down to you, but that's not going to work, and "non-native germans feel unwelcome in the country". How about you move to Iraq and try to build churches there, let's see how long you would live.. when it comes to everything wrong with politics, it is people who use all heart and zero brain, that's you.

[May90]

This is not strictly just for the fight against terrorism. The purpose of these proposals is to fight terrorism and also limit Islamic extremism in Germany. Removing dual citizenship is obviously directly aimed at Erdogan's attempts to influence German policy with the German-Turk nationals.

Basically, this seems to be a broad sweep to deal with different effects that start to piss Germans off. Consider it a slight shift to the right, if you like. So far, I see no problem with any of these proposals and hope they go through.

This proposals will hit a lot of innocent people coincidentally, that had nothing to do with Islamic fundamentalism. Things like ban on dual citizenship or deportation for expressed hatred towards Germany, respectively, will hit a lot of people moving between two countries regularly or doing extensive business with another country, and will serve as an excuse to silence inconvenient critics of the government.

What they should focus instead is on integration for immigrants, and on intelligence modernization. And banning elements of their culture or saying, "Wanna be German, give up your citizenship", is a sure way to not do that.

[Ravenblade]

Even people like Augstein argue in favour of ending dual citizenship. Calling the introduction a grave mistake. Which it definitely was. I always knew it was. You are either German or Turk not both by citizenship, you can feel ethnically connected to both but should only enjoy benefits of one citizenship. It's been only a tool for young Turks dodging military service. Ironically they would be the first one to wave the Turkish flag.

[Slant]

This proposals will hit a lot of innocent people coincidentally, that had nothing to do with Islamic fundamentalism. Things like ban on dual citizenship or deportation for expressed hatred towards Germany, respectively, will hit a lot of people moving between two countries regularly or doing extensive business with another country, and will serve as an excuse to silence inconvenient critics of the government.

What they should focus instead is on integration for immigrants, and on intelligence modernization. And banning elements of their culture or saying, "Wanna be German, give up your citizenship", is a sure way to not do that.

These changes won't hit a lot of innocent people, actually. And some of the changes make sense. If you want to support a foreign Government, please don't do it here and bring foreign political discussions here? To be frank, Turkey has no business holding political rallies in fucking Germany. If you want to do that, you're free to go to Turkey and attend them there. Dual citizenship is causing more problems than it's solving. Especially when people are only getting dual citizenship to circumvent the need for visas. Citizenship is also a question about loyalty and belonging to a country. It's never meant to be a circumvention for visa requirements. So no, I don't actually care if innocents are asked to decide which land they want to call their home.

As for deportations, it's more than just hatred, although... honestly, if you hate Germany, then yeah, go fucking hate on Germany somewhere else. We are not required to tolerate people hating us inside of Germany. This is our house, our rules. People moving regularily between two countries like Turkey and Germany won't be affected. They will get their visas without any problems. It's a bit more inconvenient, but they'll manage. They have managed for 50 years before dual citizenship was introduced, they'll be able to cope.

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I think it's a bullshit plan that he KNOWS will get rejected, but at least it might steal away some votes from the AfD.


And that's a bullshit argument.
Because:
1. Many countries don't allow you to get rid of your citizenship.
2. A passport is not an indication of loyalty.

Which countries? First time I ever heard that a country won't relinquish your citizenship when you acquire a new one.

And yes, deciding which country you want to live in kind of is a sign of loyalty. This is not a football club that you can support or not, you're actually living here, you better focus on our domestic politics instead of another countries. If you don't, why aren't you moving there? Saying a passport is not about loyalty is weird. What else is it? If you can choose between German and Turkish nationality and you pick Turkish, should I take from that that you're really loyal to Germany? Hardly makes sense, mate.

[Wildtree]

Even people like Augstein argue in favour of ending dual citizenship. Calling the introduction a grave mistake. Which it definitely was. I always knew it was. You are either German or Turk not both by citizenship, you can feel ethnically connected to both but should only enjoy benefits of one citizenship. It's been only a tool for young Turks dodging military service. Ironically they would be the first one to wave the Turkish flag.

What about, if the name of the country changes?
I've a rather complicated opinion about it. One that might - at the first glance - contradict itself. But it doesn't.
I have always been in favor of the concept of "Earth Citizen".
A concept (not debating the pros and cons of that idea yet) that allows everyone to travel and live anywhere on the planet. No bureaucracy holding you back.
Dual citizenship is at least some step into that direction. Hence why I support the possibility.

Now, for my very own self. I am not using the possibility.
I could have become a dual citizen too. All I'd have to do is, to apply for US citizenship, go through the naturalization process and - very important - immediately notify the German authorities that I am intending to become a US citizen while I will not surrender my German citizenship. I could do that, that are the laws.
I don't. I am too strongly bound locally in Germany. My heart is not with me, if you will. It's at home, in the city where I was born.
So, I stay German for that reason. I cannot be an American, if I cannot fully commit.
Personal choice.
But revoking the possibility, I am not sure if I am happy with that back step, just because of some foreigners turning into a problem group.
Fix the cause, not the symptom.

[Slant]

What about, if the name of the country changes?
I've a rather complicated opinion about it. One that might - at the first glance - contradict itself. But it doesn't.
I have always been in favor of the concept of "Earth Citizen".
A concept (not debating the pros and cons of that idea yet) that allows everyone to travel and live anywhere on the planet. No bureaucracy holding you back.
Dual citizenship is at least some step into that direction. Hence why I support the possibility.

Now, for my very own self. I am not using the possibility.
I could have become a dual citizen too. All I'd have to do is, to apply for US citizenship, go through the naturalization process and - very important - immediately notify the German authorities that I am intending to become a US citizen while I will not surrender my German citizenship. I could do that, that are the laws.
I don't. I am too strongly bound locally in Germany. My heart is not with me, if you will. It's at home, in the city where I was born.
So, I stay German for that reason. I cannot be an American, if I cannot fully commit.
Personal choice.
But revoking the possibility, I am not sure if I am happy with that back step, just because of some foreigners turning into a problem group.
Fix the cause, not the symptom.

The cause is not in Germany. To fix the cause, we'd have to tell other nations how to run their business. Which nobody (including ourselves) has an interest in. So while generally you're right, it's better to fix the cause rather than the symptom, in this particular case, we could just evict the symptoms and be done with the debate. Why should we be the ones that fix everything in this shite world? No man, I'm getting sick of people looking to us for solutions and when we present them hating on us for the solutions.

Let other people's problems be actual other people's problems for once, would be refreshing to watch someone like the US actually take up responsibility and clean up their own shit after themselves.

[May90]

I think it's a bullshit plan that he KNOWS will get rejected, but at least it might steal away some votes from the AfD.

I think this might be the case, yes.

These changes won't hit a lot of innocent people, actually. And some of the changes make sense. If you want to support a foreign Government, please don't do it here and bring foreign political discussions here? To be frank, Turkey has no business holding political rallies in fucking Germany. If you want to do that, you're free to go to Turkey and attend them there. Dual citizenship is causing more problems than it's solving. Especially when people are only getting dual citizenship to circumvent the need for visas. Citizenship is also a question about loyalty and belonging to a country. It's never meant to be a circumvention for visa requirements. So no, I don't actually care if innocents are asked to decide which land they want to call their home.

As for deportations, it's more than just hatred, although... honestly, if you hate Germany, then yeah, go fucking hate on Germany somewhere else. We are not required to tolerate people hating us inside of Germany. This is our house, our rules. People moving regularily between two countries like Turkey and Germany won't be affected. They will get their visas without any problems. It's a bit more inconvenient, but they'll manage. They have managed for 50 years before dual citizenship was introduced, they'll be able to cope.

You don't have to have a foreign citizenship to support a foreign government. And deporting people for hating Germany is just mental policing and censorship. Especially when it is applied unequally to people holding a dual citizenship, while not affecting Germans with just one citizenship.

These changes are very naive and not thought out well. It is a brute force approach, and brute force in such delicate matters tend to only have the reverse effect. Banning burqas won't make Germany less Islamic, it will only make it less tolerant; people that used to wear burqas, will now wear paranjas, whily hating the government which imposed such a silly ban and hating the people that supported it - is this the desired result, more social tensions?

[dd614]

Scumbag Merkel meme incoming.

Invites in crazy refugees and migrants who cause many problems.

Creates crazy laws to punish everyone for a problem she created.

[Slant]

I think this might be the case, yes.


You don't have to have a foreign citizenship to support a foreign government. And deporting people for hating Germany is just mental policing and censorship. Especially when it is applied unequally to people holding a dual citizenship, while not affecting Germans with just one citizenship.

These changes are very naive and not thought out well. It is a brute force approach, and brute force in such delicate matters tend to only have the reverse effect. Banning burqas won't make Germany less Islamic, it will only make it less tolerant; people that used to wear burqas, will now wear paranjas, whily hating the government which imposed such a silly ban and hating the people that supported it - is this the desired result, more social tensions?

Deportation doesn't apply to citizens. You can't deport your own people... where to? We're talking people who're guests in this country. And yes, please, mental policing on them? Absolutely. Don't bring your shit hate ideology to Germany, we'll deport your ass faster than you can yell Jihad. Simple as that. Zero tolerance for extremism.

I'm not sure if you have the complete picture, you're throwing different aspects together in a mighty confused jumble. That DW article (which I haven't read) may not be the most accurate one from the posts you make.

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Scumbag Merkel meme incoming.

Invites in crazy refugees and migrants who cause many problems.

Creates crazy laws to punish everyone for a problem she created.

Some people will blame literally anything on Merkel... you're cute. :P

[May90]

Deportation doesn't apply to citizens. You can't deport your own people... where to? We're talking people who're guests in this country. And yes, please, mental policing on them? Absolutely. Don't bring your shit hate ideology to Germany, we'll deport your ass faster than you can yell Jihad. Simple as that. Zero tolerance for extremism.

I'm not sure if you have the complete picture, you're throwing different aspects together in a mighty confused jumble. That DW article (which I haven't read) may not be the most accurate one from the posts you make.

As I understood, that also affected people with dual citizenship. Maybe I misinterpreted it.

Mental policing anyone is an Orwellian measure. Especially in such a vague formulation, when anyone non-German can be silenced for being inconvenient for the authorities.

[Belize]

Everything but wanting to end dual citizenship seems reasonable to me.

Yeah, I don't get that one. Unless it specifically targets German/Middle Eastern Country dual citizenship...?

[Wildtree]

The cause is not in Germany.

Exactly.
Then why punishing Germans? Revoking dual citizenship does not just affect foreign people. It also includes Germans.
Your (fictional) uncle that moves from Hamburg to Portugal, being dual citizen, suddenly has to make a choice? That's not fair.

To fix the cause, we'd have to tell other nations how to run their business.

We do that already. At least if you believe the internet lol
No, we don't really have to tell others how to run their business. We just have to make adjustments of some sort.
One of them would be not to exaggerate our actions.
First we exaggerate the refugees handling. Then we realize, oh shit, there could be harm coming too.
Then we exaggerate the attempted fix?
This doesn't sound smart to me.

Which nobody (including ourselves) has an interest in. So while generally you're right, it's better to fix the cause rather than the symptom, in this particular case, we could just evict the symptoms and be done with the debate. Why should we be the ones that fix everything in this shite world? No man, I'm getting sick of people looking to us for solutions and when we present them hating on us for the solutions.

You're right. We should not have to fix the problems of the World.

Let other people's problems be actual other people's problems for once, would be refreshing to watch someone like the US actually take up responsibility and clean up their own shit after themselves.

Can't say that any better.

[Slant]

As I understood, that also affected people with dual citizenship. Maybe I misinterpreted it.

Mental policing anyone is an Orwellian measure. Especially in such a vague formulation, when anyone non-German can be silenced for being inconvenient for the authorities.

No, the people with dual citizens would only be asked to decide for one nationality. Nobody would start deporting them outright. They would simply lose the benefits of being dual citizens. As for if they start hate speech after that, well then they could get deported. I see no problem with that. But as long as they behave like proper guests and respect our laws, why would we deport them?

And let me be clear here, if they're a guest in Germany, they better behave to our standards or we do have the right to deport them. So yes, how about they start being convenient for a change? Being here is a privilege, nobody in the world is entitled to being in Germany except Germans. That's the whole point of being a nation. We let millions and millions of guests come here and our rules aren't too strict, really. So the least we can ask for is that you don't break them.

And to elaborate further, this is not about people criticising the Government. This is about fanaticism and hate speech. When you say "I disagree with Merkel" or even the idiotic "Merkel is to blame for all of this", that's fine. As stupid as it is. But if you say "We should kill Merkel and Germans because they represent the evil west and don't comply with Islamic rules (that we kind of made up)" then no, you do not deserve any kind of lenience or tolerance and forfeit your privilige to be a guest in this country.

This has nothing to do with Orwell, this has everything to do with civilised manners.

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Exactly.
Then why punishing Germans? Revoking dual citizenship does not just affect foreign people. It also includes Germans.
Your (fictional) uncle that moves from Hamburg to Portugal, being dual citizen, suddenly has to make a choice? That's not fair.

How's that not fair? As far as I'm concerned, citizenship becomes relevant in the context of the country you're living in. Why should you have German citizenship when you only visit Germany once a year? Why should you get to vote in German elections if you aren't affected by the outcome? It's unfair to Germans that people not even living here get to vote on shit that affects us.

Likewise, how is it fair that a nation that becomes increasingly hostile towards Germany feels the need to not only start legal battles in Germany against German citizens but also starts doing their actual political fucking campaigns here. Why should we pay for political rallies of another country? Do you know how much that joke rally in Cologne has cost the city? Just their presence spawned not one, not two, but three counter rallies that had to be policed as well. And for what? So they can tell us ON OUR SOIL how shite we are?

No, fuck that. They've lost my sympathy. Fucking Erdowahn and his cronies can stick it up his ass.

[dd614]

How exactly would any of these changes help fight terrorism? Sounds like just a set of random measures aimed at making some non-native Germans feel unwelcome in the country - that's not how you fight terrorism, that's how you support it.

No, you defeat terrorism by not importing in the people who become terrorists.

[Malacrass]

These changes won't hit a lot of innocent people, actually. And some of the changes make sense. If you want to support a foreign Government, please don't do it here and bring foreign political discussions here? To be frank, Turkey has no business holding political rallies in fucking Germany. If you want to do that, you're free to go to Turkey and attend them there. Dual citizenship is causing more problems than it's solving. Especially when people are only getting dual citizenship to circumvent the need for visas. Citizenship is also a question about loyalty and belonging to a country. It's never meant to be a circumvention for visa requirements. So no, I don't actually care if innocents are asked to decide which land they want to call their home.

As for deportations, it's more than just hatred, although... honestly, if you hate Germany, then yeah, go fucking hate on Germany somewhere else. We are not required to tolerate people hating us inside of Germany. This is our house, our rules. People moving regularily between two countries like Turkey and Germany won't be affected. They will get their visas without any problems. It's a bit more inconvenient, but they'll manage. They have managed for 50 years before dual citizenship was introduced, they'll be able to cope.

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Which countries? First time I ever heard that a country won't relinquish your citizenship when you acquire a new one.

And yes, deciding which country you want to live in kind of is a sign of loyalty. This is not a football club that you can support or not, you're actually living here, you better focus on our domestic politics instead of another countries. If you don't, why aren't you moving there? Saying a passport is not about loyalty is weird. What else is it? If you can choose between German and Turkish nationality and you pick Turkish, should I take from that that you're really loyal to Germany? Hardly makes sense, mate.

I used to be in favor of abolishing dual citizenship, but after informing myself, it's actually a terrible idea.

Mainly because there is no choice available for many. Nations that refuse expatriation are currently: Afghanistan, Algerien, Eritrea, Iran, Kuba, Libanon, Marocco, Syra und Tunesia.
That's the reason why we currently even allow dual citizenship, because we do have an interest that those who live and work here consider themselves part of Germany - with all rights and responsibilities - but certain countries simply won't let go of their people.

Now, the proposal from Thomas de Maizière is obviously aimed at Turkish citizens after the pro Erdogan protests, and Turkey does allow expatriation (at a heavy price, about 10.000€ for most men, due to military reasons), but this would effectively discriminate against them and only them. Introducing that double standard (dual citizenship for the above mentioned countries, but not for the biggest ethnic minority we have here) only alienates and actually... doesn't solve anything when you think about it. Most would likely get rid of thw Turkish citizenship if they are financially able, simply because their life happens here. But will they suddenly stop supporting Erdogan? Why would they, you can't dictate what people think, chances are you would still see them openly protest. And the many, many Turks who are already perfectly integrated, those who don't protest for a dictator are also needlessly alienated.

[dd614]

Deportation doesn't apply to citizens. You can't deport your own people... where to? We're talking people who're guests in this country. And yes, please, mental policing on them? Absolutely. Don't bring your shit hate ideology to Germany, we'll deport your ass faster than you can yell Jihad. Simple as that. Zero tolerance for extremism.

I'm not sure if you have the complete picture, you're throwing different aspects together in a mighty confused jumble. That DW article (which I haven't read) may not be the most accurate one from the posts you make.

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Some people will blame literally anything on Merkel... you're cute. :P

Some people will make excuses for a tyrant while the country falls apart. There were people like you who defended Hitler even as Russian soldiers were ransacking the next street over in Berlin. Progressives like yourself can never admit your entire worldview is a chaotic mess of hatred and destruction.

[classic username]

Germany is goneeeeeeeeeeeee. It may have taken 3 attempts but they've finally destroyed themselves and western europe too. Thank god I don't live over there, I'd be like that German family in the news atm who drove to Russia and applied for asylum.

You mean after England France Russia and USA tried it twice in the last 100 years ???

[Slant]

Some people will make excuses for a tyrant while the country falls apart. There were people like you who defended Hitler even as Russian soldiers were ransacking the next street over in Berlin. Progressives like yourself can never admit your entire worldview is a chaotic mess of hatred and destruction.

That's rich, given my post history...

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I used to be in favor of abolishing dual citizenship, but after informing myself, it's actually a terrible idea.

Mainly because there is no choice available for many. Nations that refuse expatriation are currently: Afghanistan, Algerien, Eritrea, Iran, Kuba, Libanon, Marocco, Syra und Tunesia.
That's the reason why we currently even allow dual citizenship, because we do have an interest that those who live and work here consider themselves part of Germany - with all rights and responsibilities - but certain countries simply won't let go of their people.

Now, the proposal from Thomas de Maizière is obviously aimed at Turkish citizens after the pro Erdogan protests, and Turkey does allow expatriation (at a heavy price, about 10.000€ for most men, due to military reasons), but this would effectively discriminate against them and only them. Introducing that double standard (dual citizenship for the above mentioned countries, but not for the biggest ethnic minority we have here) only alienates and actually... doesn't solve anything when you think about it. Most would likely get rid of thw Turkish citizenship if they are financially able, simply because their life happens here. But will they suddenly stop supporting Erdogan? Why would they, you can't dictate what people think, chances are you would still see them openly protest. And the many, many Turks who are already perfectly integrated, those who don't protest for a dictator are also needlessly alienated.

They can support Erdogan all they like, but it'll remove his justification to holding political rallies here. I don't care where they actually live. I don't mind us having 3 million Turks, most of them are bloody decent people. What I do mind is us thinking we're obligated to tolerating his bullshit campaigns here. The reason why De Maiziere is doing this is also politically sound. With these proposals, he's claiming the ground right-wing extremists are standing on. Without actually hurting anyone. This is a smart move, especially since many have criticised Merkel for creating a situation that brought support to the extreme right wing. They're taking that support away now, you can hardly criticise them for that now, can you?

It solves a lot of the primary issues. Nobody is having an issue with Turks supporting Erdowahn on general principle. It's when support turns into hate speech that it becomes a problem and I do not actually care about people's rights overly much when they break our rules. As for the ones not breaking our rules, what's so bad about forcing them to pick a side? This is Germany after all, not Turkey. Why should they enjoy the benefits from two countries while not actually living in both? See, as far as I'm concerned, Turkey has certain rules about conscription. Why should we let help them dodge service to their nation? I didn't have the choice to dodge service. Took a year out of my life that I wasn't actually keen on wasting. And I'm probably in the minority in Germany, too. Was that fair to me? No, it wasn't. Did I bitch and moan about it? No, I didn't. I don't see why I should now accomodate them.

[Wildtree]

Slant. Chill out buddy.
It ain't worth it getting pissed over idiotic comments.. And pissed you are, right?

Just shrug off the brain dead fucktard flame comments. It's always the same clients..
Knowing next to nothing, but thinking they do, because they've seen some black and white footage from WW2 and now they're experts on everything German.

[Slant]

Slant. Chill out buddy.
It ain't worth it getting pissed over idiotic comments.. And pissed you are, right?

Just shrug off the brain dead fucktard flame comments. It's always the same clients..
Knowing next to nothing, but thinking they do, because they've seen some black and white footage from WW2 and now they're experts on everything German.

I'm not actually pissed. I'm trying to establish my new stance here. It's not easy being a tolerant person while at the same time agreeing with what could be misinterpreted as Xenophobic tendencies.

Oh, but yeah I am pissed at Erdogan. Actually upset over the audacity that arrogant bastard displays. Jesus, how are the Turks not seeing him for what he is?

Edit: If you mean that dd guy, I'm just replying out of habit, I don't actually care what he posts, but I find it amusing to tickle the most extremely absurd statements out of people. It actually gives me real life giggles to see someone write stuff like that. A perverse side of me actually sits here sometimes and giggles like a school girl because of the absurdity that the internet produces. :P