Would you prefer the old Deterrence with 2 charges or Aspect of the Turtle?

[Penguintamer]

I'm really not enjoying the new Aspect of the Turtle. I feel like the designers saw a chance at giving us another Aspect to go along with the cooldown Aspects that we got, but didn't actually think it through.

There are very rarely any times where I want to use the full 8 second duration of Aspect of the Turtle. In raids, most of the time that you need to pop a cooldown like that, you only want it for a couple seconds to absorb a hard-hitting mechanic, and then you want to go back to DPS'ing. In PvP, using the full duration is more frequent. But overall I feel like it's a large downgrade from having 2 charges of Deterrence. Outside of the fact that 2 Deterrences equaled 10 seconds of immunity as opposed to the 8 seconds of AotT, the utility that comes with having two charges was amazing in raid for negating multiple instances of short duration damage. The only advantage that AotT has is that you don't have to time two Deterrences back-to-back for those instances where your raid is wiping and you find yourself tanking the boss. But even then, two Deterrences timed properly is a longer duration than the new one.

I understand that our specs did all get Exhilaration as a baseline defense heal and that maybe this change is offsetting that fact, but I really miss those 2 charges.

Two other completely unrelated notes:

-Aspect of the Cheetah has too long of a cooldown. Slightly alleviated by artifact talents for BM and Survival.

-I'm really surprised that none of our talent trees have any damage reduction or healing utility at all. Nearly every other DPS spec in the game has some spread of defenses in their talents.

[FelPlague]

ascpect of the cheeta is pretty good for speedboost really, X seconds of a high boost, then another 12 seconds of 30% pretty good

[Galaar]

I'm really not enjoying the new Aspect of the Turtle. I feel like the designers saw a chance at giving us another Aspect to go along with the cooldown Aspects that we got, but didn't actually think it through.

There are very rarely any times where I want to use the full 8 second duration of Aspect of the Turtle. In raids, most of the time that you need to pop a cooldown like that, you only want it for a couple seconds to absorb a hard-hitting mechanic, and then you want to go back to DPS'ing. In PvP, using the full duration is more frequent. But overall I feel like it's a large downgrade from having 2 charges of Deterrence. Outside of the fact that 2 Deterrences equaled 10 seconds of immunity as opposed to the 8 seconds of AotT, the utility that comes with having two charges was amazing in raid for negating multiple instances of short duration damage. The only advantage that AotT has is that you don't have to time two Deterrences back-to-back for those instances where your raid is wiping and you find yourself tanking the boss. But even then, two Deterrences timed properly is a longer duration than the new one.

I understand that our specs did all get Exhilaration as a baseline defense heal and that maybe this change is offsetting that fact, but I really miss those 2 charges.

Two other completely unrelated notes:

-Aspect of the Cheetah has too long of a cooldown. Slightly alleviated by artifact talents for BM and Survival.

-I'm really surprised that none of our talent trees have any damage reduction or healing utility at all. Nearly every other DPS spec in the game has some spread of defenses in their talents.

I think that Aspect of the Turtle is decent but to me it's just deterrance with a different name. One thing that has bugged me about hunters since the beginning is that our only defensive takes out our ability to dps. I know that mages get ice block that does the same thing but in WoD warlocks had Dark Bargain that gave them 8 sec of immunity but they could still dps. That's my issue.

Aspect of the Cheetah - Really sucks to be honest. Let's look at other class speed boosts/movement boosts:

• Dash (Druids) - 15 sec 70% speed boost on 3 min cooldown.
• Sprint (Rogues) - 8 sec 70% speed boost on 1 min cooldown.
• Roll (Monks) - while not technically a speed boost it's on a 20 sec recharge (dps spec) with 2 charges and does what speed boosts do - moves you out of trouble.
• Blink (Mages) - teleport you 20 yards forward on a 15 sec cooldown
• Heroic Leap (Warriors) - 8 to 40 yard leap that goes to a specific location and actually does damage. 45 sec cooldown.
• Aspect of the Cheetah (hunters) - 90% speed boost for 3 sec and then 30% speed for another 9 sec on a 3 min cooldown.

Now yes out of combat MM hunters get a passive 25% speed boost from the artifact and SV/BM can reduce the CD of Cheetah via traits. Still not even close to comparing in my opinion to the other movement abilities. Now if the baseline cooldown was 2 min and no reductions I could be okay with that.

[MabusGaming]

I just want more kiting than concussive shot. We need Freedom again, and traps

Disengage talent for freedom is no good when every melee class has gap closes. Maybe if Disengage itself had 2 charges would be cool.

[Delphirus]

I was OK with Deterrence turning off attack for the duration. It made sense. You're sacrificing your offensive ability to not die for a short time. Aspect of the turtle? A 30% damage reduction. 30%. That's hardly anything at all. On top of that, its a 3 minute cooldown. Elemental shaman, for example, gets Astral Shift - a 40% reduction for 8 seconds on a 1.5 minute cooldown, and they can still cast freely. I feel it should be able to be talented to increase its efficiency, or just remove the attack turning off portion.

Examples of talents I can think of off the top of my head:

Hardened Shell - increases the damage reduction to 60%, but only works against physical damage.
Reflective Shell - reflects incoming targetted (not aoe) spells for the duration.
Regenerating Carapace - Recovers 5% of your max HP every 2 seconds for the duration.

To me, something like that would maybe justify the attack turning off, but as is? Sorry, healers, but I'm probably never going to hit that button.

[Dracodraco]

I think that Aspect of the Turtle is decent but to me it's just deterrance with a different name. One thing that has bugged me about hunters since the beginning is that our only defensive takes out our ability to dps. I know that mages get ice block that does the same thing but in WoD warlocks had Dark Bargain that gave them 8 sec of immunity but they could still dps. That's my issue.

Aspect of the Cheetah - Really sucks to be honest. Let's look at other class speed boosts/movement boosts:

• Dash (Druids) - 15 sec 70% speed boost on 3 min cooldown.
• Sprint (Rogues) - 8 sec 70% speed boost on 1 min cooldown.
• Roll (Monks) - while not technically a speed boost it's on a 20 sec recharge (dps spec) with 2 charges and does what speed boosts do - moves you out of trouble.
• Blink (Mages) - teleport you 20 yards forward on a 15 sec cooldown
• Heroic Leap (Warriors) - 8 to 40 yard leap that goes to a specific location and actually does damage. 45 sec cooldown.
• Aspect of the Cheetah (hunters) - 90% speed boost for 3 sec and then 30% speed for another 9 sec on a 3 min cooldown.

Now yes out of combat MM hunters get a passive 25% speed boost from the artifact and SV/BM can reduce the CD of Cheetah via traits. Still not even close to comparing in my opinion to the other movement abilities. Now if the baseline cooldown was 2 min and no reductions I could be okay with that.

It's not really fair comparing Cheetah to Blink and Roll when you neglect to mention our own version of that - Disengage. 20 Sec baseline CD, has a chance to be reset on crits. Disengage works for getting "out of trouble" 9 out of 10 times, without wasting as much as a global on it. For when you can't disengage or need precision and don't trust yourself, you've got cheetah as a backup.

I was OK with Deterrence turning off attack for the duration. It made sense. You're sacrificing your offensive ability to not die for a short time. Aspect of the turtle? A 30% damage reduction. 30%. That's hardly anything at all. On top of that, its a 3 minute cooldown. Elemental shaman, for example, gets Astral Shift - a 40% reduction for 8 seconds on a 1.5 minute cooldown, and they can still cast freely. I feel it should be able to be talented to increase its efficiency, or just remove the attack turning off portion.

Examples of talents I can think of off the top of my head:

Hardened Shell - increases the damage reduction to 60%, but only works against physical damage.
Reflective Shell - reflects incoming targetted (not aoe) spells for the duration.
Regenerating Carapace - Recovers 5% of your max HP every 2 seconds for the duration.

To me, something like that would maybe justify the attack turning off, but as is? Sorry, healers, but I'm probably never going to hit that button.

Deterrence was always 30% reduction, with a glyph raising it to 50%. Likewise, you can't compare deterrence to Astral Shift; Deterrence *blocks* all attacks and spells that lands on you for the duration. It just doesn't REMOVE the spells (read: dots) already on you, which is why it provides a little damage reduction against them (30%). You're entirely neglecting the major point of Deterrence/turtle; Nothing goes out, nothing comes in during the duration. You can't be hit, but you can't hit in turn.

[Delphirus]

Deterrence was always 30% reduction, with a glyph raising it to 50%. Likewise, you can't compare deterrence to Astral Shift; Deterrence *blocks* all attacks and spells that lands on you for the duration. It just doesn't REMOVE the spells (read: dots) already on you, which is why it provides a little damage reduction against them (30%). You're entirely neglecting the major point of Deterrence/turtle; Nothing goes out, nothing comes in during the duration. You can't be hit, but you can't hit in turn.

Hmm, my bad. Maybe the tooltip was wrong when I fist looked at it after it went live, because I swear it didn't have the 'deflects all attacks' portion in there. Carry on. :P

[Deleted]

The answer two your question is: yes.

I would trade a shorter duration over a shorter cooldown or two charges. Any day.

I would trade a shorter duration over a real inmunity too that removes dots.

But no one has offered us such a deal so...this is what we got.

[Deleted]

Not sure if its possible in WoW, but I'd have liked aspect of the turtle to be more like D.Va's defence matrix from Overwatch in that its essentially usable on demand and however long you use it for depletes its overall time.

Obviously the regen of it would have to be slower, but it would make optimal turtle usage worth something.

[xalenthas]

As MM I prefer the new AotT but only once you get the "healing shell" artefact trait.

[Reloe]

the bigger downside for me is that the "immunity"(or whatever you like to call it) isn't working on as many spells as it did before. Very often you'll see that only the dmg-reduction part from it works, most of the time its raid/group-wide aoe things. Another example would be ursoc-charge. If you soak that with turtle up you don't get the Momentum-debuff but I wonder if anybody has tested/looked at logs if the groupwide dmg-reduction still works if you soak it with turtle or other immunities since you're not getting the damage/debuff.
Some random examples I remember where only the dmg-reduction part functions:
Shade of Xavius: Feed on the weak
Dresaron: Earthshaking Roar
Wrath of Azshara: Crushing Depths
Hyrja: Eye of the storm

I have only dungeon things in there since thats what i'm doing on beta all the time but I have encountered similar issues during raidtesting, the list is very long if you were to include everything.

[PBitt]

-Obviously the WoD iteration of deterrence with 2 charges and a relatively short cooldown is superior. But it was honestly a bit too powerful. Turtle will still be useful but hunters won't be able to just soak all the things like they were able to in WoD.
-Yes cheetah is not that amazing, but as Draco said, it's more or less a backup to our primary movement CD, disengage, which continues to be very strong, and if you chose posthaste as a 45 talent, you get some extra movement speed there as well. Hunters (well, MM and BM anyways) have pretty crazy speed boosts.
-Hunter's have pretty good baseline healing and defensive cds. The talent tree as a whole leaves something to be desired compared to some other classes/specs, however.

[DarkAviator]

I'm using BM at the moment, never cared about MM and for melee I have other chars.
I didn't even put cheetah on my bars. Yes, lots of empty space there, but with posthaste I don't see the point.

Turtle? Well, it's better then having no defensive CD, but thats about it.

"pretty good baseline healing cds"? Are you sure we're playing the same class, formerly known as hunter? ;-)
It is nice to have this CD baseline now, yes. But I only need it because they cut spirit bond, and for a spirit bond replacement its CD is way too long.

[Kwaai]

Don't forget we have a full dot wipe every 25 seconds when we get PvP talents.

I'm using BM at the moment, never cared about MM and for melee I have other chars.
I didn't even put cheetah on my bars. Yes, lots of empty space there, but with posthaste I don't see the point.

Do you also not use Kill Command because Cobra Shot also dumps focus and does damage?

[Sar-]

PvP talents are only active in pvp though, not in pve instances or content.

[Vorpol1]

Two charges of turtle sounds interesting, "good" damage/healing ability would be better then old deterrence.

[Sparklelord]

Queue Highlight Reel (my favorite parts)!

[Complains about Aspect of the Turtle no longer providing immunity in long winded post, forgot to read the tooltip and see that it does]

[Lists all the movement abilities of other classes (including blink) compared to Aspect of the cheetah, fails to mention disengage]

[Upset that you can't do damage while Aspect of Turtle is active but Warlocks can with Dark Bargain (and I guess by proxy paladins with bubble up, don't even think there's a damage nerf anymore), fails to mention/realize that Dark Bargain just delays the damage (it's delt to you over a short time as dot after it ends) and doesn't provide immunity to spells/CC/Stuns/Slows]

[ironik]

I'm really not enjoying the new Aspect of the Turtle. I feel like the designers saw a chance at giving us another Aspect to go along with the cooldown Aspects that we got, but didn't actually think it through.

There are very rarely any times where I want to use the full 8 second duration of Aspect of the Turtle. In raids, most of the time that you need to pop a cooldown like that, you only want it for a couple seconds to absorb a hard-hitting mechanic, and then you want to go back to DPS'ing. In PvP, using the full duration is more frequent. But overall I feel like it's a large downgrade from having 2 charges of Deterrence. Outside of the fact that 2 Deterrences equaled 10 seconds of immunity as opposed to the 8 seconds of AotT, the utility that comes with having two charges was amazing in raid for negating multiple instances of short duration damage. The only advantage that AotT has is that you don't have to time two Deterrences back-to-back for those instances where your raid is wiping and you find yourself tanking the boss. But even then, two Deterrences timed properly is a longer duration than the new one.

I understand that our specs did all get Exhilaration as a baseline defense heal and that maybe this change is offsetting that fact, but I really miss those 2 charges.

Two other completely unrelated notes:

-Aspect of the Cheetah has too long of a cooldown. Slightly alleviated by artifact talents for BM and Survival.

-I'm really surprised that none of our talent trees have any damage reduction or healing utility at all. Nearly every other DPS spec in the game has some spread of defenses in their talents.

To your main statement, AotT is actually better than what we had. While Deterrence gave 10 seconds of protection, it's total CD was 6 minutes(3 minute recharge on each charge). AotT gives us 8 seconds every 3 minutes. I'll take the 20% reduction in protection for a faster turnaround.

To your first unrelated note, I 100% agree. I think the 3 minute CD on Aspect of the Cheetah is way too long. Other classes have a much shorter CD. At the very least it should brought in line with other speed and mobility boosting abilities.

For instance:
-Wraith Walk for DK's has a 70% speed increase with a 45 second CD.
-Blink for Mages is either 20 yards forward every 15 seconds, or you can talent Shimmer for TWO blinks with a 15 second recharge for each one giving you and if you spec Arcane you get Displacement which teleports you back to where you Blinked from if used within 10 seconds.
-Paladins have Divine Steed with a 45 second CD.
-Priests have Angelic Feather that is usable throughout the party with a 40% speed increase with a 20 second recharge.
-Warriors have Charge, a 20 second CD AND Heroic Leap - up to a 40 yard leap with a 45 second CD, and
-Monks have Roll with 2 charges with a 20 second recharge.
-Shamans have a nearly permanent 30% speed boost with Ghost Wolf form.
-Druids have Cat Form, a 30% speed increase with no CD PLUS Dash, a 70% increase every 3 minutes AND Travel Form which is useable in battle.
-Rogues have Sprint, 1 minute CD for 8 seconds.
-Warlocks have Burning Rush. Yes it does damage to the caster, but it is toggleable, so you can mitigate the damage but you have to talent for it. Oh wait, they also have Demonic Gateway which is usable every 1.5 minutes(but for a set location) and the other talent, Demonic Circle, a set-location teleport that lasts 6 minutes and has a 30 second CD.
-Let's not even bring up Demon Hunter speed/mobility.

So out of all those, only Druids and Warlocks seem to be ALMOST where we're at. Granted, all Hunters have Disengage, but that requires a certain degree of mouse skill, and we have to talent for Posthaste to get any real speed benefit from it. And if you want a little bit more, you have to spec Survival for Harpoon(some might see this as just mobility, but I see it as getting from point a to point b quicker, ergo, speed increase) or MM for the artifact speed boost. The BM and SV artifacts do a little to bring that down some, but not enough... BM reduces it to 2 minutes and SV only reduces it to 2.4 minutes.

If anything, Aspect of the Cheetah should be brought down to at the very least a 1.5 minute CD to bring it somewhat in line with Rogues and Druids. This class lore-wise is supposed to be speedy and agile to begin with. Why Hamstring them? (pun intended). Sorry if I left out any other abilities, but I think I've made my point.

To your second unrelated note, all Hunters have baseline damage mitigation with AotT and Exhilaration. That being said, aside from SV, we're supposed to stay away from the damage. They brought back a lot of class lore with making BM having the pets do most of the work and MM literally standing off in the background( increased firing range) and kiting things.

[Donkeywing]

They couldn't have nerfed the ability harder than they did really. Good thing iceblock went pretty much untouched, not really surprising either.

[Brightamethyst]

I'm OK with turtle. Especially with the artifact traits that add a heal. It's not perfect for every situation but it has it's place. Especially in running the hell away from things.

Cheetah needs a rework though. The CD is just too damn long for what it does. With a 3 minute CD the 90% speed boost should damn well last longer than 3 seconds. Make it last the full 12 seconds at that speed, or leave it at a 3 second duration but give it a 45-60 second CD or something. No one really gives a damn about the 9 second 30% part anyway. The in between place Cheetah sits in now is just weird. Especially with Posthaste and Disengage on a 20 second CD.