A Minor Thought On Holy Wrath In Terms Of Ret PvP-Viability

[Deleted]

the potential of ret revamp (esp. sustained damage) is widescreen underestimated. the retirement-agenda most rets developed in x-pacs of agony is understable, like Vanguard quitting ret for enh in 6.1. but also potentially blinding:

if ret in opposing team: tunnel ret, gg.
Holy Wrath is close to an all-inclusive policy vs not exclusivly melee-trainz, cuz bubble (also) not dispellable anylonger.
Holy Wrath is a nuke, possibly the mightiest offensive cd in game: 40-50% health 4 enemies 10yrds.

mobility is an issue now, but was it prior to 7.0 when ret sucked blockbuster?

sustained damage+anti-tunnel-nuke, hm?

[Deleted]

Have you tried actually doing that sustain damage vs any class that knows how to kite?

Have you tried getting Holy Wrath off on targets that know to watch out for it and kite/cc or pop a CD when the Ret drops low?

Have you tried the far superior sustained damage most other melee have? Have you noticed that all Ret defensive utility besides Bubble is dispel able/stealable and therefore worthless in any decent rated setting?

I am convinced Ret will be worse than it has been in quite some time. The total loss of ranged damage, slow removal and mobility has killed the spec in competitive as far as I can see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z022gkNfSeM

Aveng set out a pretty good list of our problems.

[Deleted]

qed.
agenda, cuz Aveng explicitly states ret doesnt need any dps increase. so sustained damage isnt issue compared to other classes.

there r 2 rated scenarios:

rbg mobility is secondary (even with pre-7.0 toolkit, there r better FCs), ret has to stick with pack - works fine. actually iam always top of the pops, but thats just personal experience, cuz i know how to TEAMPLAY.

arena is where mobility issue forces to rethink traditional behavior patterns, ret has to play far more tactical with LoS. like Savix vs those bodybuilders (mage).

mobility is an issue now, but was it prior to 7.0 when ret sucked blockbuster?

ofc Holy Wraht is counterable, but every move should be, hm? again - revamp forces to revamp tactix.
btw is Divine Shield again the most powerful def-cd ingame, now without 50% damage redux. BoP isnt dispellable also.

sry, but the result of mentioned agenda is pessimism close to ignorance. major issues got worked, iam optimistic how this revamp will perform with Honor Talents and maxed Ferrari.

[Morally Grey Storm]

HoP is undispellable? Huh?

What about HoF, SoV and bosanc, then?

What about no choice choices? what about not working talents, not interacting talents and abilities?
What about very greater blessings?
What about not viable talents? What about literally the whole ashbringer grid being shite?

[Deleted]

Blade of Justice is 20 yard range, sure its not old judgement range but its pretty nice. And when we get the PvP talents will apply 3 seconds of hindrance if you spec for it. It makes it pretty damn nice to me.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Blade of Justice is 20 yard range, sure its not old judgement range but its pretty nice. And when we get the PvP talents will apply 3 seconds of hindrance if you spec for it. It makes it pretty damn nice to me.

It's 12 yards, not 20.

[Deleted]

qed.
agenda, cuz Aveng explicitly states ret doesnt need any dps increase. so sustained damage isnt issue compared to other classes.

there r 2 rated scenarios:

rbg mobility is secondary (even with pre-7.0 toolkit, there r better FCs), ret has to stick with pack - works fine. actually iam always top of the pops, but thats just personal experience, cuz i know how to TEAMPLAY.

arena is where mobility issue forces to rethink traditional behavior patterns, ret has to play far more tactical with LoS. like Savix vs those bodybuilders (mage).

mobility is an issue now, but was it prior to 7.0 when ret sucked blockbuster?

ofc Holy Wraht is counterable, but every move should be, hm? again - revamp forces to revamp tactix.
btw is Divine Shield again the most powerful def-cd ingame, now without 50% damage redux. BoP isnt dispellable also.

sry, but the result of mentioned agenda is pessimism close to ignorance. major issues got worked, iam optimistic how this revamp will perform with Honor Talents and maxed Ferrari.

What I mean is that our sustained damage is comparable to most of the other melee, except they have far greater uptime and offensive utility, meaning our damage is less attractive.

I'll have to just say off the bat that I don't really care about RBG's just like I never cared about 5v5. As far as I'm concerned those areas of the game were largely just aoe/multidot clusters and have very little elegance of play so I have very rarely bothered with them, 2v2 and 3v3 is what I care about. Ret will probably be better than it has been in RBG's, though why you would waste a spot on one over a Deathknight I don't know.

Mobility issues does not cause us to rethink our behaviour, since we have always had mobility issues, they just made them worse. We have always tried to kite behind pillars to heal up, but our ability to do that is very hampered now with no baseline instant heals and a very small mana pool, in addition to not being able to sprint round corners with Long Arm of the Law to avoid damage, or remove our slows with Emancipate. Nor can we pop out, generate holypower from ranged and back off to heal.

I am not pessimistic, I am realistic. It's a hell of a lot better than when I was playing it during Alpha, but it has a long way to go before it is a good spec.

[Deleted]

2v2 and 3v3 is what I care about.

sry 4 late bump, was on vac.
gotcha, thats what qed is 4, me fooled u (:D) :
Aveng explicitly stated ret is "pretty good" in duel + arena, better than ever. maybe u watch it again (with focus), just to update ur "realism"

Holy Wrath 200-250k...

ur perception on ret mobility issues prior 7.0 is somewhat...subjective.

(rephrased) itz da most ugliest ret tree ever

180% agree

but r these issues comparable 2 missing sustained damage and trainz?

btw: i just dont get kited somewhat, neither mage, nor hunter, sometimes damagestop till 5% health, 4 a HW one-shot :D rethinking behavior patterns...

[Deleted]

sry 4 late bump, was on vac.
gotcha, thats what qed is 4, me fooled u () :
Aveng explicitly stated ret is "pretty good" in duel + arena, better than ever. maybe u watch it again (with focus), just to update ur "realism"

Holy Wrath 200-250k...

ur perception on ret mobility issues prior 7.0 is somewhat...subjective.



180% agree

but r these issues comparable 2 missing sustained damage and trainz?

btw: i just dont get kited somewhat, neither mage, nor hunter, sometimes damagestop till 5% health, 4 a HW one-shot rethinking behavior patterns...

Holy Wrath does nothing against competent players, absolutely nothing, good players have already adjusted for playing around it. You will very rarely take it over Divine Purpose in rated arena, it only seems good at the moment because everything is double dps skirmish, and ofc a gimmicky oneshot button excels in that environment.

Wait until it goes back to ww/healer, hunter/healer, mage healer....then see how useful Holy Wrath is.

As for mobility issues prior to 7.0, you call my view subjective, yet I'm sure most long term Ret's would agree that gapclosing has ALWAYS been one of the specs shortcomings. It was somewhat mitigated before with ranged attacks and sprints, but it has never been as good as most of the other melee. Certainly it was one of the specs weaknesses.

The spec has consistently been one of the least represented in high end everything, despite being the most popular spec in the game. So more people play it, but less people can manage anything with it, there are reasons for that, and mobility is one of them.

[Deleted]

The spec has consistently been one of the least represented in high end everything, despite being the most popular spec in the game. So more people play it, but less people can manage anything with it, there are reasons for that, and mobility is one of them.

180% agree

but y`know, thats y an agenda seems likely. itz not our first rodeo :D, and despite the ugliest ret tree, the most stupid movement ever, revamp has potential. which i use successfully in an environment, most "pros" judge ret as underperforming? (which is somehwat subjective, 2)
many of Avengs suggestion r right, as the comms r, but most pl r not even trying to rethink (outdated) tactical patterns.

to counter HW will be challenging at least due to bubble, also DP+JV (heal, which is the worse choice imo) ret has more rated potential than ever?

btw - DH is underperforming massively, MW is just disappointingly easy to own

[Morally Grey Storm]

DI+Equalolity is a onetrick pony's route.

DP+JV, on the other hand, provides tremendous sustainability and brust(if you connect somehow, that is).

[Deleted]

DI+Equalolity is a onetrick pony's route.

DP+JV, on the other hand, provides tremendous sustainability and brust(if you connect somehow, that is).

tremendous doesnt sound sarcastic at all :D

but thats the spirit, my guess is HW will be superior due to burst precision, but DP+JV has massive pressure potential, difference is like Chaos Blade and Havels Dragons Tooth

btw Storm, u r smart enough to be subtle, hm? banned, lol!

[Gloriandus]

Holy Wrath does give you one of those "BOOYAH!" moments when you use it, but then it's sadpanda for 3 minutes.

[Demsi]

The only Scenario i have found Holy wrath to be Good is low rated 2v2, since you will always win an 1v1 with it as long as your opponent is bad, hence low rated.

[Deleted]

The only Scenario i have found Holy wrath to be Good is low rated 2v2, since you will always win an 1v1 with it as long as your opponent is bad, hence low rated.

than u obviously havent been in AV Zerg lately?

my pkb_killemotes spammed a pentakill :D (/sexy, /applause, cuz /lol is just... mean:), which is good example 4 HW usage in Rbg.

ofc pros would never queue skirmish, cuz they win easy 84:0 with HW...


/edit recent hotfix btw favors DP+JV, grand issue with DP is rngesus. so some1 has to do the numbers:

what rotation formula would simulate 2v2 without noise?

[Snegovik]

Our sustain will go up due to recent PvP-templates buffs.

In RBGs Ret will never be part of tier 1 comp :P so there is that.

For Arena, Ret may not be the best but i think some comps are def strong, i think Ret will be good with comps such as Ret/Rog/Heals and just train healers, since with Rog's stuns you can spam dat JV. HW became my new favorite spell lmao even in 3s it is usable, if you play very aggressive players will swap to you thinking you are an easy kill and having a rogue with you, will ensure you can get within 10 yard range.
However, i think with recent PvP templates buff, DP can be better. Comps that do worry me personally as Ret is shadow play for example, they all live lords in a long game, have amazing spread dmg, utility and if you don't get their healer quickly, ull lose. VS comps like Shadow Play, id be running HW, since you know for sure your HP will drop low.

In my own opinion Rets will be better in legion S1 than we were in WOD s2 and s3, those seasons were just terrible.

P.S. Last time i watched Aveng, he said Ret is only good in duels and 2s, he was playing Prot in 3s with a shadow priest last time i checked :P

[Deleted]

Our sustain will go up due to recent PvP-templates buffs.

In RBGs Ret will never be part of tier 1 comp :P so there is that.

For Arena, Ret may not be the best but i think some comps are def strong, i think Ret will be good with comps such as Ret/Rog/Heals and just train healers, since with Rog's stuns you can spam dat JV. HW became my new favorite spell lmao even in 3s it is usable, if you play very aggressive players will swap to you thinking you are an easy kill and having a rogue with you, will ensure you can get within 10 yard range.
However, i think with recent PvP templates buff, DP can be better. Comps that do worry me personally as Ret is shadow play for example, they all live lords in a long game, have amazing spread dmg, utility and if you don't get their healer quickly, ull lose. VS comps like Shadow Play, id be running HW, since you know for sure your HP will drop low.

In my own opinion Rets will be better in legion S1 than we were in WOD s2 and s3, those seasons were just terrible.

P.S. Last time i watched Aveng, he said Ret is only good in duels and 2s, he was playing Prot in 3s with a shadow priest last time i checked :P

finally some1 with focus... u just cant post a vid as reference which says the opposite (3 weeks before recent hotfix btw)


rbg toolkit doesnt matter much in pack, but sustained pressure and controllable burst. HW is migthiest nuke in Azeroth, opens up new options of mass destruction for any TC, esp in synergy with AoE heavy set-ups.

[Snegovik]

finally some1 with focus... u just cant post a vid as reference which says the opposite (3 weeks before recent hotfix btw)


rbg toolkit doesnt matter much in pack, but sustained pressure and controllable burst. HW is migthiest nuke in Azeroth, opens up new options of mass destruction for any TC, esp in synergy with AoE heavy set-ups.

Ret can be very very strong in RBGs now with template buff, just not sure about top tier comp u know? but i can def see Rets being viable up to 2.2k in RBGs which is much better state than we were in WOD s2/s3 in my opinion. Question is =) maybe Prot will be more desired in RBGs due to FCing and Push backs on Pony Cough cough Eots/ABs...mmm the kill opportunities there are limitless =)

But i think most PvP Rets care more about Arena. I think Ret will be a part some sick healer killing comps like Rog/Ret/Heals

[Deleted]

Ret can be very very strong in RBGs now with template buff, just not sure about top tier comp u know? but i can def see Rets being viable up to 2.2k in RBGs which is much better state than we were in WOD s2/s3 in my opinion. Question is =) maybe Prot will be more desired in RBGs due to FCing and Push backs on Pony Cough cough Eots/ABs...mmm the kill opportunities there are limitless =)

But i think most PvP Rets care more about Arena. I think Ret will be a part some sick healer killing comps like Rog/Ret/Heals

tanks will be nerfed 2 teh ground, eg 6.1. but this push-back, i always wanted to blow enemies off the ledges like a real drood :D
2,2k is the new 1.5k...

anyway, what heal u suggest optimal for 3s with rogue (personal pref here wl)? me not impressed on survivability of all heals atcually, prior 7.0 disc/holypa, but disc is crap atm, and holypa stun always collided (DR), btw me has the weird impression that holypas are the new crashtrain-dummies, but that could just be correlation due to more sustained damage.

[Snegovik]

tanks will be nerfed 2 teh ground, eg 6.1. but this push-back, i always wanted to blow enemies off the ledges like a real drood
2,2k is the new 1.5k...

anyway, what heal u suggest optimal for 3s with rogue (personal pref here wl)? me not impressed on survivability of all heals atcually, prior 7.0 disc/holypa, but disc is crap atm, and holypa stun always collided (DR), btw me has the weird impression that holypas are the new crashtrain-dummies, but that could just be correlation due to more sustained damage.

Tank's Dmg should be nerfed i agree its a bit OP, but i am a bit old school, i don't mind tanks being FC, basically a punching bag for DPS, it does 0 dmg but hard to kill lol you know? In any case i won't lose much sleep if tanks get nerfed.

Healer wise, i never never liked stacking Ret + Hpal >.< so thats a no for me. From what i hear (since I dont have a beta key) is that Rshammies are really good if you can peel for them. So my guess would be a Rshammy or MW (since on live, MW is the only healer i can not stick to as Ret). I think its all about what comps will be next FOTM.

I think Shadow play, spicy chicken, and god comps will be strong with all the aids pressure, in this case Rshammy will be a clear winner. If melee clvs like Arms/DH/Hpal or UH/DH/Hpal will dominate then id take MW. all dep what comps will be dominate Legion S1, gotta wait and see to know for sure =)