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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    You are aware that 7.0 frost is literally 2H frost right? All obliterate spam all the time.
    It's a shame you believe that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post

    Frost is one of THE worst specs right now. And I'm talking level 110 with the weapons and whatnot. Do you forget that there are people who are dedicated to testing this stuff for months and months prior to the launch? People running sims and testing the differences on beta. There are people sharing logs with each other. People have been raiding the bosses with both specs. The facts are out there and it's pretty well known that at 110 frost is garbage.
    I think Phenom would likely disagree with this.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelraxx View Post
    Has it ever occurred to you, that maybe your friends are just bad?

    Play what you want to play, if you're such a fan of 2h Frost- chances are you aren't in a high progressing guild anyway. So which spec is better on paper shouldn't really matter a whole lot.
    Has it ever occurred to you to read before replying to people? Check the logs. Frost is one of the bottom specs in beta even after 110 and their artifact. Unless my friends and all of the beta players are bad, except for you apparently, know how to play the game.

    I never said I liked 2H Frost better. I prefer DW. I only brought up the 2H issue to point out how Blizzard used that as the excuse for Frost being historically mediocre/bad (except for small instances of them being great before getting hotfixed to the ground) and they still fail now in Legion beta. That excuse about not being in a top 10 guild is the crappiest argument anyone can make to justify a spec being subpar compared to everything else. Says a lot about the kind of player you must be.

  3. #43
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by DarklingThrush View Post
    I read all this stuff, but what I see in game is that the player still matters more than the spec.
    Yup. Blood still seems strong to me- tried it out some hours ago.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Panetale View Post
    And where have you been the last 2 months? UH received one nerf after the other from Dark Arbiter to Clawing Shadows and went from Top tier dps to midtier (where DKs belong if you ask blizz).
    If you're talking about single target, you can't really expect to be top on single target while also being one of the best aoe classes. Only fire mages are allowed that.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracovian View Post
    Has it ever occurred to you to read before replying to people? Check the logs. Frost is one of the bottom specs in beta even after 110 and their artifact. Unless my friends and all of the beta players are bad, except for you apparently, know how to play the game.
    Why check the logs when I have beta, and leveled as frost, raid tested as frost and did mythic+ as frost? It's not the doomsday scenario you think it is, and if you want to play frost- just play Frost.

    I mean- there's sims floating around right now that put Frost in a bad place, but the numbers are hardly final and are based on current tier sets that will most likely be rebalanced later (unless Fire mages are really getting 30% haste all the time), raid tuning hasn't even be finalized yet. So 80% of your argument is speculation and 'I don't have beta, but my friends who do said this'.

    Is Frost a top performing spec right now? No. The difference between Frost and Unholy is 25k DPS, and in a patch where the average dps output is 250k, pulling 225 isn't that bad (not that most people pull 90% of their sims anyway).

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelraxx View Post
    Why check the logs when I have beta, and leveled as frost, raid tested as frost and did mythic+ as frost? It's not the doomsday scenario you think it is, and if you want to play frost- just play Frost.

    I mean- there's sims floating around right now that put Frost in a bad place, but the numbers are hardly final and are based on current tier sets that will most likely be rebalanced later (unless Fire mages are really getting 30% haste all the time), raid tuning hasn't even be finalized yet. So 80% of your argument is speculation and 'I don't have beta, but my friends who do said this'.

    Is Frost a top performing spec right now? No. The difference between Frost and Unholy is 25k DPS, and in a patch where the average dps output is 250k, pulling 225 isn't that bad (not that most people pull 90% of their sims anyway).
    What you call a doomsday scenario I call the reality of progression. Even half of a percent is relevant. If you care about progression you cannot play Frost in its current state period and I think that's something you have no choice but to agree with. If people in beta are using current tier sets as you say then Frost is in an even worse spot than I thought. Frost T18 4pc is easily one of the most powerful in the game so imagine the massive hit their dps will take when you take that away.

    Let's also take into account we are talking strictly about numbers here. If you add in mobility and utility Frost might as well be removed from the game. Can you clear the game's content with Frost in Heroic and below? Of course, easily. That's not the problem here. Again, Frost has no room in progression. They have nothing another class can't do better and that's why Frost is currently among the worst specs.

  7. #47
    I played frost on every fight during mythic progression. Sure we didn't kill mythic Archimonde until January, but such is the price for being "allowed" to play what you want.

    If you are a good player you could have made just about any spec, save maybe assassination and demo, work for HFC progression. You could always do more damage by playing another spec, but you could also always do more damage by playing better with your current spec. Even when I parsed very high I still made plenty of mistakes that affected my efficiency, so there is always room to improve that doesn't require playing a different spec. Unless you are raiding 20+ hours a week and fighting for top world kill ranks, there are guilds full of skilled players that put more emphasis on their players being happy rather than forcing them into something they don't want to do in the name of "progression".

    Perhaps you should look for a change of scenery and stop reading forums like this that are clearly getting you all riled up over anecdotal claims and scenarios that will never apply to you.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoeth View Post
    It's a shame you believe that.

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    I think Phenom would likely disagree with this.

    Rofl, Indeed I would


    There's no doubt it's easier to get solid numbers with Unholy atm, But to completely overlook frost because someone can't play it at a top level, is silly.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracovian View Post
    What you call a doomsday scenario I call the reality of progression. Even half of a percent is relevant. If you care about progression you cannot play Frost in its current state period and I think that's something you have no choice but to agree with. If people in beta are using current tier sets as you say then Frost is in an even worse spot than I thought. Frost T18 4pc is easily one of the most powerful in the game so imagine the massive hit their dps will take when you take that away.
    You're either exaggerating or you're in a toxic guild.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesquish View Post
    Rofl, Indeed I would


    There's no doubt it's easier to get solid numbers with Unholy atm, But to completely overlook frost because someone can't play it at a top level, is silly.
    I don't think that "someone" who "can't play at top level" is the problem that is being complained about. You just said good information about the numbers, now let the numbers show the high mobility and decent raid utility of Frost.

  11. #51
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    I am inclined to not care at all. Because each and every xpac there is DK somewhere soloing relatively relevant content.

    I don't care how good your gear is, but content from the current xpac should not be soloable, unless of course everyone can solo it.

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelraxx View Post
    You're either exaggerating or you're in a toxic guild.
    anyone in the top 50 would say this tbh, even top 100 guilds... and it isn't as much toxic as having players willing to change specs.
    just because people are willing to change specs doesn't mean they won't bitch about it like it's the end of the world behind Gleaders backs.
    it's easier now more than ever to switch between specs, and talents.

    imho he has no room to bitch if he is in a progression guild with the attitude of "ME ME ME, only what i want counts"
    when his attitude should be "hey i think i can parse .5% higher if i go this spec, want me to try?"

    because yeah...can change specs all day long now, he can go UH for raid, and frost for everything else.
    then again i guess even in the top, there will be people who think about themselves and what they want, more than the 19+ other people, who should by this point have a camaraderie / friendship going.
    in such a situation, wouldn't the individual be toxic and not the guild?
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    anyone in the top 50 would say this tbh, even top 100 guilds... and it isn't as much toxic as having players willing to change specs.
    just because people are willing to change specs doesn't mean they won't bitch about it like it's the end of the world behind Gleaders backs.
    it's easier now more than ever to switch between specs, and talents.

    imho he has no room to bitch if he is in a progression guild with the attitude of "ME ME ME, only what i want counts"
    when his attitude should be "hey i think i can parse .5% higher if i go this spec, want me to try?"

    because yeah...can change specs all day long now, he can go UH for raid, and frost for everything else.
    then again i guess even in the top, there will be people who think about themselves and what they want, more than the 19+ other people, who should by this point have a camaraderie / friendship going.
    in such a situation, wouldn't the individual be toxic and not the guild?
    So you are saying it's okay for Blizzard to ignore underperforming specs because if a player wants parity among specs he is just toxic? Great mindset you have there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesquish View Post
    Rofl, Indeed I would


    There's no doubt it's easier to get solid numbers with Unholy atm, But to completely overlook frost because someone can't play it at a top level, is silly.
    So you admit Unholy performs better when both specs are played at the highest level. There is no parity. Why won't people admit it and instead keep making excuses to justify Blizz?

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    anyone in the top 50 would say this tbh, even top 100 guilds... and it isn't as much toxic as having players willing to change specs.
    just because people are willing to change specs doesn't mean they won't bitch about it like it's the end of the world behind Gleaders backs.
    it's easier now more than ever to switch between specs, and talents.

    imho he has no room to bitch if he is in a progression guild with the attitude of "ME ME ME, only what i want counts"
    when his attitude should be "hey i think i can parse .5% higher if i go this spec, want me to try?"

    because yeah...can change specs all day long now, he can go UH for raid, and frost for everything else.
    then again i guess even in the top, there will be people who think about themselves and what they want, more than the 19+ other people, who should by this point have a camaraderie / friendship going.
    in such a situation, wouldn't the individual be toxic and not the guild?
    Our guild is currently US 20, and Our Raid Leader wants a few people with FROST Dk alts, just because of how brokenly op Sindragosa's Fury can be.

    Frost may be slow, but its manageable after practice with the class(meaning practice while being so slow), You may have to pre-move more that before, but it's doable.

    Frost is in the best spot its been in probably 3-4 years, People just want to complain because you can't top the charts being braindead. The spec is 100% dependent on positioning with multiple abilities, which is something that this game has never had, and I'm enjoying that new mechanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracovian View Post
    Blizzard stated numerous times when asked about the change it would allow them to better balance the spec instead of having to account for both playstyles. Frost is not fine. Not one bit. I have multiple friends with beta access and you can see Legion logs for yourself. Frost is bottom.
    Im not really trying to be toxic here, but if your friends are at the bottom of the logs as frost, they are just plain sub par players.

    Saying frost isnt a top 3 spec is fine and all, but there is literally 0 chance a good frost DK will be bottom on any situation(AoE,ST,Stacked Cleave, Spread Cleave) at 110, giving equal player skill.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Christan View Post
    anyone in the top 50 would say this tbh, even top 100 guilds... and it isn't as much toxic as having players willing to change specs.
    just because people are willing to change specs doesn't mean they won't bitch about it like it's the end of the world behind Gleaders backs.
    it's easier now more than ever to switch between specs, and talents.

    imho he has no room to bitch if he is in a progression guild with the attitude of "ME ME ME, only what i want counts"
    when his attitude should be "hey i think i can parse .5% higher if i go this spec, want me to try?"

    because yeah...can change specs all day long now, he can go UH for raid, and frost for everything else.
    then again i guess even in the top, there will be people who think about themselves and what they want, more than the 19+ other people, who should by this point have a camaraderie / friendship going.
    in such a situation, wouldn't the individual be toxic and not the guild?
    If you're in a top 100 guild though- you'll do whatever benefits the team the most and not sit around all day contemplating the finer points of Frost vs. Unholy.

    This guy is a FOTM DK from BRF that just wants to have 'the most fun topping meters' and isn't ready to accept the reality of what was best in 6.x isn't necessarily going to be the best in 7.x. and instead would rather just shelve the class alltogether because 'a friend with beta' said it wasn't top dps.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelraxx View Post
    If you're in a top 100 guild though- you'll do whatever benefits the team the most and not sit around all day contemplating the finer points of Frost vs. Unholy.

    This guy is a FOTM DK from BRF that just wants to have 'the most fun topping meters' and isn't ready to accept the reality of what was best in 6.x isn't necessarily going to be the best in 7.x. and instead would rather just shelve the class alltogether because 'a friend with beta' said it wasn't top dps.
    Frost has never been FotM. When have I said I want to have "the most fun topping meters"? Frost was never the best in 6.x. When did I say the class must be shelved? Any more things you want to make up?

    People like you are what have made the game as unbalanced as it is. You are telling Blizzard it's okay to have specs inferior to every other because you can just jump into whatever is great instead of Blizzard striving to achieve parity. Notice how you cannot dispute Frost doesn't do anything better than any other spec. Oh but it's okay because people can just play Unholy or Rogue right? That's the solution right? Just change spec/class instead of the Blizzard having to work on parity/balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesquish View Post
    Im not really trying to be toxic here, but if your friends are at the bottom of the logs as frost, they are just plain sub par players.

    Saying frost isnt a top 3 spec is fine and all, but there is literally 0 chance a good frost DK will be bottom on any situation(AoE,ST,Stacked Cleave, Spread Cleave) at 110, giving equal player skill.
    Is Frost better than Rogues and Unholy when played at their maximum potential? This is a yes or no question. We both know the answer.

  17. #57

  18. #58
    The Lightbringer Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dracovian View Post
    So you are saying it's okay for Blizzard to ignore underperforming specs because if a player wants parity among specs he is just toxic? Great mindset you have there.

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    So you admit Unholy performs better when both specs are played at the highest level. There is no parity. Why won't people admit it and instead keep making excuses to justify Blizz?
    no...you want equality among specs down to half a % or less of dps potential, that simply won't happen.
    they mentioned a guild would be toxic if they wanted someone to change for progression, i was showing you that in a true progression guild your mindset is backwards
    you are there to help the other 19 people in the mythic raid, help your guild get world first/etc.
    not the other way around, the players mindset in these top guilds are "i do what it takes"
    not "i cry when things dont go my way"

    in such a top guild the player would be toxic indeed, not the guild.
    but you're right, for most guilds that attitude would be toxic
    but how much of the playerbase, is in a top 100 guild, compared to the unnamed masses?

    and, stop putting words in my mouth also, i never said blizzard should ignore underpreforming specs, i simply said that attitude in a top guild is whats toxic not the guild itself.

    if the difference is 125k vs 150k, that's more than .5%, more than 10%, blizzard SHOULD fix something like that, especially if they are that far below with a class set that compliments frost much more than UH.

    but putting words in my mouth? really?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelraxx View Post
    If you're in a top 100 guild though- you'll do whatever benefits the team the most and not sit around all day contemplating the finer points of Frost vs. Unholy.

    This guy is a FOTM DK from BRF that just wants to have 'the most fun topping meters' and isn't ready to accept the reality of what was best in 6.x isn't necessarily going to be the best in 7.x. and instead would rather just shelve the class alltogether because 'a friend with beta' said it wasn't top dps.
    i am beginning to see that, also he likes putting words in peoples mouths.
    Last edited by Christan; 2016-08-18 at 04:25 PM.
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kae View Post
    I mean, to be fair, midtier is where every DPS spec belongs. If everyone was middle of the pack then that's balance.

    I think UH did need a nerf or two, it was way too strong, but there are a couple of other specs which are also too strong and they really need brought into line too, that's what makes it seem so unfair.
    Agreed. Too many classes stay untouched and are "far" better than others.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracovian View Post
    Frost has never been FotM. When have I said I want to have "the most fun topping meters"? Frost was never the best in 6.x. When did I say the class must be shelved? Any more things you want to make up?
    I'm not making up anything, it's what I found after a quick jaunt through your post history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dracovian View Post
    People like you are what have made the game as unbalanced as it is. You are telling Blizzard it's okay to have specs inferior to every other because you can just jump into whatever is great instead of Blizzard striving to achieve parity. Notice how you cannot dispute Frost doesn't do anything better than any other spec. Oh but it's okay because people can just play Unholy or Rogue right? That's the solution right? Just change spec/class instead of the Blizzard having to work on parity/balance.
    I won't apologize for being better than you, I play both Frost and Unholy and I'm actually torn between which spec I want to raid on in Legion; I'll probably fill out my Unholy artifact first though, even though I think the spec as a whole is flying to close to the sun and is about to melt moments before raid release.

    I had absolutely no problems out damaging other people in raids, 5 mans, and small groups as Frost- and if it's a problem for your 'friends', I'm going to say it has more to do with their understand and ability as players and less to do with the spec itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dracovian View Post
    Is Frost better than Rogues and Unholy when played at their maximum potential? This is a yes or no question. We both know the answer.
    In what scenario?

    There is no yes or no blanket answer for class performance; assuming there is however, explains a lot about you.
    Last edited by Mercane; 2016-08-18 at 04:27 PM.

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