Those of you who played beta, DH vs DK?

[Raikh]

Less burst AoE? You haven't tried Epidemic...

UH has the best burst AoE in the game, period.

DH does fine. But in order to maximize your dps, you have to use momentum build.

Unless you have high amounts of crit and mastery a single eye beam beats or atleast ties with 3 x epidemic. Epidemic damage caps at 315% AP per target, while eye beam does 550% and always crits, so effectively 1100%.
Fel rush does another 441% each with fel mastery.

With Unholy's other tools you can get ahead after that right now, since DnD AoE + DT timmy cleave + possibly bursting sores also does terrifiying amounts of damage.
But then again dh is far from complete and has a miuch stronger emphasis on AoE on tier artifact than unholy does. All 3 major traits of havoc benefit from AoE.
Fury of the Illidary is a really brutal AoE nuke, which gets boosted by 60% by rage of the illidary and while that is split damage it still counts the AoE you did effectively being AoE that way, too.
Inner demons is also AoE and while random you can say the same about shambler for unholy. Followed by Anguish of the Deceiver which is another 400% AP extra for eye beam.
Looking at the minor traits we have balanced blades which is 10% extra for each target in range. 15% more glaive damage and while only 3 target cleave the glaive hits pretty damn hard., especially with blood let. You have another 18% on eye beam which is huge for AoE.
Unholy only features portal to the underworld (very huge potential but hard to control) and plaguebearer directly and the extra 10% shadow damage and improved fallen crusader indirectly as it simply improves general output while havoc doesn't have such artifact traits.

Both can now brutally invest in AoE on their talent tree.
The initial few gcds havoc should definitely win, while unholy should close in and overtake havoc the longer the AoE lasts due to havoc AOE being linked entirely to CDs and the most significant AoE is on higher CDs for havoc than for unholy.
If havoc goes all out with demon reborn and throws you 6 x fel rush + double eye beam + fury of the illidary which you can only do with meta then havoc completely destroys everything on AoE but thats on ahuge dool down and what you can do minutely is quite a bit lower (4 x fel rush + fury + eye beam) and requires you to blow your only def cd (2 extra fel rushes when activating blur on the artifact).

Overall both are AoE monsters. Burst AoE I would really give to DH if we can talk about 1 min intervals. If we have smaller intervals or simply quite long AoE windows, especially once were you can't use eye beam every time then unholy wins more consistently as epidemic takes a maximum of 30 sec to get all 3 charges back and DnD will also be back up again.

[Deleted]

Dk AoE is great. For 10s+ Aoe you have dots+epidemic combined with dnd cleave. For even shorter duration AoE (only really relevant for farm) you have Bursting Sores + DnD cleave (it does however require knowledge about timings to be effective).

[psyquest]

The main difference is burst aoe. In my opinion DH has the much stronger aoe when adds are packed. UH has the stronger AOE if adds are not packed.

Both classes are really very close. However one has to wonder what happens with better gear and adds dyeing faster. From experience, the more gear a raid gets and the faster a raid kills adds, in that situation classes with the higher burst aoe wins.

[Vitinariy]

For the DPS specs the main difference in movement. As DH you will have to move all the time even when the boss is standing, because Fel Rush is a core damage skill. As DK you don't have to move unless there's stuff on the floor or the boss moves. I feel like this is the core difference in the feel of the classes.

P.S. Also I always hated UH and I hate it even more after the update. Frost feels a lot more appealing for me even though the damage is lower.

[Deleted]

DK - because Blood is far superior to Vengeance gameplay(according to reviews and feedback as well).
DK - because i don't like being mobile, when you don't need mobility.
DK - because of it's depth.
DH - because the DPS is predictiable, easier AoE/ST rotation and bigger numbers(not the same as better DPS), that makes you preform better. Maybe the highest possible burst AoE, but lacks in sustained AoE compared to DK. You can get really high DPS on a big pack of shortliving mobs, but loses it's value if they are longliving(which almost always is the case in raids).

Because DH is a new class, they will not undertune the DPS(in combation of easier class to play). I expect them to do most DPS overall in the melee classes(UH will preform better in niché fights with sustained cleave and long living adds, especially in the hands of a skilled player as it takes more knowledge).

Sum: Pick because of the fantasy and feel, not numbers.

[Khrux]

I find all the praise DH gets for its mobility pretty hilarious, considering their most optimal and anal talent setup is momentum which puts your mobility skills into your standard rotation so its not like you have mobility skills free to use whenever you like...

[Vitinariy]

I find all the praise DH gets for its mobility pretty hilarious, considering their most optimal and anal talent setup is momentum which puts your mobility skills into your standard rotation so its not like you have mobility skills free to use whenever you like...

Well - as Havoc you have:
- Fel Rush with 2 charges and 10 sec CD + an artifact trait to reset both charges once a minute.
- Vengeful retreat at 15 sec CD
- double jump + glide (not very fast but gives some mobility)
- the jump that Meta gives you

So you will ALWAYS have a Rush or a Retreat up, because you never use all your charges at the same time. Therefore you can reposition yourself faster then DK anytime, and much-much-much faster when you save some abilities.
In addition, your movement skills are also your DPS skills. In WraithWalk you do NO damage.

Therefore - yeah - DHs are way more mobile then DKs. Or pretty much any other melee for that matter.

[Deleted]

According to a famous youtuber, he only had issue with 1 boss out of all the dungeons, where the Blood DK felt slow in terms of positioning and stressful. It might not be that mandatory to be mobile, but DH's got it in thier core play(only matters in a niché scenario, not in every boss fight, just like Ice Block and Bubbles to remove debuffs).

[Deleted]

for tanking i prefer dh, for dps i prefer dk(unholy).

[Piz813]

How do they compare, damage and tanking?

Which one did you enjoy more and why? I'm just looking for personal experience here, since we don't have all the data to make conclusions yet.

Since it looks like Im the only Frost DK here I will add my xp-

The damage is SOLID. ST AND AoE. In 5 mans I am beating every geared DH and UH DK I am grouped with. Only boomkins and locs are better. With and without the legendary vendor items Frost is great.

All these guys that are brainwashed to think UH is king and better and Frost is a 3 button spec are WRONG. Frost has a easy 4-5 play styles and talent combos that are highly effective while UH is just the cookie cutter same shit every one is using.

Is UH cool? Yes. Zombies and shit it pretty fucking sick. Do DH look cool? Yes. Horn and demo wings sells it alone. Is Frost fun? YES. My personal xp its great. Although spamming Frost Scythe got a little boring on beta, I went Runic Attune, Ice Cap, Freezing Fog, and Icy Talons and do just as good. I changed my playstlye just like that. UH will be stuck with Epidemic, Bursting Sores, etc the whole xpac.

Plus people that can do more then 5 seconds of a google search will read BOTH specs are a few % within each other so play the one YOU LIKE THE BEST and you WILL excel.

PS- Dark Arbiter and ring combo wil be gone in 2 weeks. Na naa

[Khrux]

Therefore - yeah - DHs are way more mobile then DKs. Or pretty much any other melee for that matter.

I don't dispute the mobility tools DH's have but they are not just mobility tools, they are actual rotational abilities and therefore not available to use as they see fit. If you use vengeful, fel rush or meta to "get out of fire" or avoid some boss mechanic it'll lead to a dps loss most of the time once you get back on target as you've just used a rotational skill to "get out of fire".

Sure you have multiple charges and resets but if your playing with momentum(which you should be) then your wasting charges using it to avoid fire and your certainly not going to use your dps CD(Meta) to jump across a room at nothing. Bottom line is, if fel rush and vengeful were not rotational abilities that DHs could use anytime and anywhere they wanted it would be nuts having so much free mobility but be realistic you don't have infinite uses of these skills nor are they just sitting there ready to use for whatever scenario you want either. They come at a cost in the majority of cases.

We have a 45cd "sprint"(once we can get the glyph to remove levitate) and that is perfectly fine for the content available on beta. Mobility isn't a crutch holding up DHs nor is the "lack" of it holding back DKs.

[Vitinariy]

I don't dispute the mobility tools DH's have but they are not just mobility tools, they are actual rotational abilities and therefore not available to use as they see fit. If you use vengeful, fel rush or meta to "get out of fire" or avoid some boss mechanic its a dps loss most of the time.

I agree with your points. I just wanted to say that in a situation where you do not have immediate access to a boss - for example he jumps from location A to location B - you lose DPS anyway because you're not in a melee range, but you have a charge of your rush to reposition fast and the charge will be back fast enough.

IMO, it will not be a huge point in raiding, but in world content or BGs you can certainly feel the difference in mobility. As DH between all the charging and jumping I noticed that quite often I don't even want to mount up.

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Since it looks like Im the only Frost DK here I will add my xp-

Yay, man! Frost all the way! I always played frost as much as I could and now it's more enjoyable then ever.

[0verdose]

Did someone say unholy has less burst aoe? LOL.... You got burst and sustain Aoe mixed up my friend.

[Deleted]

Since it looks like Im the only Frost DK here I will add my xp-

The damage is SOLID. ST AND AoE. In 5 mans I am beating every geared DH and UH DK I am grouped with. Only boomkins and locs are better. With and without the legendary vendor items Frost is great.

All these guys that are brainwashed to think UH is king and better and Frost is a 3 button spec are WRONG. Frost has a easy 4-5 play styles and talent combos that are highly effective while UH is just the cookie cutter same shit every one is using.

Is UH cool? Yes. Zombies and shit it pretty fucking sick. Do DH look cool? Yes. Horn and demo wings sells it alone. Is Frost fun? YES. My personal xp its great. Although spamming Frost Scythe got a little boring on beta, I went Runic Attune, Ice Cap, Freezing Fog, and Icy Talons and do just as good. I changed my playstlye just like that. UH will be stuck with Epidemic, Bursting Sores, etc the whole xpac.

Plus people that can do more then 5 seconds of a google search will read BOTH specs are a few % within each other so play the one YOU LIKE THE BEST and you WILL excel.

PS- Dark Arbiter and ring combo wil be gone in 2 weeks. Na naa

for short fights or fighst with dmg taken increase phase DA will still be used and will be strong, epidemic its splash dmg when mobs are stacked adds alot of dmg. Defile/dnd +SS cleave with Bursting spores is also strong aoe, or apocalypse with BS and soulreaper for the extra haste.
FC and summon sindragosa are Frosts main hard Hitters, first is rng if it doesnt crit its worthless and other is 5min cd. for cleaving with Fc i can see frost beating unholy, but for large aoe, certainly not.

[Firefly]

I personally will roll away from Unholy DK to Havoc DH as mainchar, even though I loved most of the changes they did to the general kit (FW, Arbiter, CS for example).
The fact that they already nerfed Unholy 3 times during the prepatch makes me think they wont stop there.
Also the whole so-called "class fantasy" of less mobility but more dps when on target is a joke. Less mobility for sure, since the average Mythic dungeon group I'm running with has to wait before every boss so I don't get zoned out, and I barely ever damage a trash mob with melee attacks, but... More damage on target? My ass. You are just SO SLOW. Even with talented Wraith-get-stuck-on-the-edge-of-a-carpet-walk. I would trade that shit for old Death's Advance any day of the week.

DH on the other side just has awesome mobility and also offers a very fluent and rounded rotation once you get all the 100+ talents and stuff. The argument that DH mobility is only on paper due to momentum is completely invalid, since you cannot maintain 100% uptime anyway which gives you the ability to plan accordingly with both Fel Rush and Glaive Throw (if talented) using a charge system. Need to move soon? Don't spend that last charge of Fel Rush.
And don't Fel Rush off cliffs and edges. Glide doesn't do much if there is no floor to land on :P

[Raikh]

I don't dispute the mobility tools DH's have but they are not just mobility tools, they are actual rotational abilities and therefore not available to use as they see fit. If you use vengeful, fel rush or meta to "get out of fire" or avoid some boss mechanic it'll lead to a dps loss most of the time once you get back on target as you've just used a rotational skill to "get out of fire".

Sure you have multiple charges and resets but if your playing with momentum(which you should be) then your wasting charges using it to avoid fire and your certainly not going to use your dps CD(Meta) to jump across a room at nothing. Bottom line is, if fel rush and vengeful were not rotational abilities that DHs could use anytime and anywhere they wanted it would be nuts having so much free mobility but be realistic you don't have infinite uses of these skills nor are they just sitting there ready to use for whatever scenario you want either. They come at a cost in the majority of cases.

We have a 45cd "sprint"(once we can get the glyph to remove levitate) and that is perfectly fine for the content available on beta. Mobility isn't a crutch holding up DHs nor is the "lack" of it holding back DKs.

You don't have to use Fel Rush on CD though. Since its charge based you don't lose out anything as you have less than 2 charges. Along with that you can't have 100% uptime on Momentum either making it relatively free to use while not losing out on dps even if you hold a charge for a while. Vengeful Retreat needs to be used pretty much on CD with Prepared/Momentum but delaying it a few seconds once in a while for a crucial moment is alos no big deal.

Using Fel Rush to get out of fire should be no different than using Fel Rush normally. You have to play jumping around the hitbox of your target anyway, so using it to avoid AoE is no dps loss and if you need to rush out of melee range you still lose less than a less mobile class since you can stay longer in melee range and then dash out instantly while others need to run and lose more uptime.
Additionally if you use Fel Rush as a gap closer you don't necessarily lose anything. If you rush into the hit box of your target you still get both the Fel Rush damage and the benefit of Momentum since you are in melee range now.

DH has no brain dead mobility and you need to use it strategically and know when and how you need it beforehand and plan around that and doing that correctly keeps you insanely mobile at all times without trading much or anything for it. This is also what makes the havoc gameplay at the end of the day and I personally find it very engaging and not only rearding but also fun.
Playing the DH in pre-patch made me realize how lacking dk really feels for me. Unholy gameplay itself is fun and I really enjoy dk, so much that rerolling was never even an optuion for me the past years, you have cool rotational stuff and the artifact will only further enforce that, but while dh isn't as interesting what the basic rotation is concerned it has unique cool mechanics, insane mobility and feels overall just more powerful to me, not necessarily by numbers but just by capabilities, the class feels more complete and full of what it wants to be.

[Lucrece]

UH seems only slightly higher but is better on movement fights due to pet, epidemic, potentially clawing shadows and a lot of other stuff.

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Haste mon, it reduces GCD. Theoretically you could reduce it to 4s and even 3s if you threw Outbreak in advance. He may have not specified it and may have not counted 6s but our aoe burst is a lot more "on demand" than DHs EB on 45s CD.

1- UH is well ahead frost, ESPECIALLY on aoe where frost is pretty mediocre since they gutted HB and frost scythe only does good damage with a proc up which might not happen enough by the time mobs are dead.

They overnerfed frost unintentionally by fixing those tripled proc rates that were going on with Rime alongside other nerfs to talents like Freezing Fog and only compensated by making Sindragosa's Fury less bad (but it's still bad for a 5 min cd, does significantly less damage than a fire elemental let alone metamorphosis, which are comparable cooldowns at base 5 min).

2- Haste affects all classes, whatever reduction to one skill does not affect its relative standing to another. I didn't say UH aoe burst was bad, most of the positive points were in UH's favor when I did the comparison, but in terms of a single button to kill some people NOW, Eye Beam is pretty beastly, and to top it off it does not detract from your single target priority damage.

UH DK is more certainly the strongest spec in the game for PvE right now, although pretty mediocre in PvP at the moment.

The problem is, and I'm warning people, don't fixate on numbers so much as toolkit. Balance druids early alpha were doing really high priority target damage, now they're utterly mediocre after nerfs. Frost DK used to be really, really good in alpha as well, until those nerfs came in. The flexibility of a toolkit doesn't change with numbers, that's why mages have most of the time remained on top alongside rogues and hunters.

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I find all the praise DH gets for its mobility pretty hilarious, considering their most optimal and anal talent setup is momentum which puts your mobility skills into your standard rotation so its not like you have mobility skills free to use whenever you like...

You haven't played DH, obviously. If you need mobility for any survival purposes, Blur (your 1 min cd 35% DR+50% dodge that's miles ahead of 3 min cd 20% DR 8 sec IBF) with the artifact gives you back two fel rush charges immediately.

What's more, you always have one fel rush charge available. That's one charge more than DK has.

And since we're dispelling your ignorance on the subject, DH mastery also increases their movement speed.

My DH is currently sitting at 23% bonus movement speed from the mastery, which I'm not even stacking. So they have virtually a Death's Advance built in while you lost yours in exchange for the crappiest sprint in the game ever on a whopping 45 sec cd.

Unholy DK doesn't suffer as much from the lack of mobility because your dots are powerful and your pet leaps and is doing damage in the meantime as well in between death coils.

Meanwhile, Frost DK is miserable. What are you going to do, spam howling blast while walking to a target while WW is on CD? It's just bad. Frost DK is supposed to be this hard hitting monster when on a target. It's supposed to be the chasobolt destruction warlock of melee.

But it isn't. Frost DK is simply gimped, with far more drawbacks than positives. They really aren't balancing classes with utility/mobility vs. damage at all. Otherwise DH's and rogues and warriors wouldn't be taking a dump on frost DK when on target.

[Deleted]

1- UH is well ahead frost, ESPECIALLY on aoe where frost is pretty mediocre since they gutted HB and frost scythe only does good damage with a proc up which might not happen enough by the time mobs are dead.

They overnerfed frost unintentionally by fixing those tripled proc rates that were going on with Rime alongside other nerfs to talents like Freezing Fog and only compensated by making Sindragosa's Fury less bad (but it's still bad for a 5 min cd, does significantly less damage than a fire elemental let alone metamorphosis, which are comparable cooldowns at base 5 min).

2- Haste affects all classes, whatever reduction to one skill does not affect its relative standing to another. I didn't say UH aoe burst was bad, most of the positive points were in UH's favor when I did the comparison, but in terms of a single button to kill some people NOW, Eye Beam is pretty beastly, and to top it off it does not detract from your single target priority damage.

UH DK is more certainly the strongest spec in the game for PvE right now, although pretty mediocre in PvP at the moment.

The problem is, and I'm warning people, don't fixate on numbers so much as toolkit. Balance druids early alpha were doing really high priority target damage, now they're utterly mediocre after nerfs. Frost DK used to be really, really good in alpha as well, until those nerfs came in. The flexibility of a toolkit doesn't change with numbers, that's why mages have most of the time remained on top alongside rogues and hunters.

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You haven't played DH, obviously. If you need mobility for any survival purposes, Blur (your 1 min cd 35% DR+50% dodge that's miles ahead of 3 min cd 20% DR 8 sec IBF) with the artifact gives you back two fel rush charges immediately.

What's more, you always have one fel rush charge available. That's one charge more than DK has.

And since we're dispelling your ignorance on the subject, DH mastery also increases their movement speed.

My DH is currently sitting at 23% bonus movement speed from the mastery, which I'm not even stacking. So they have virtually a Death's Advance built in while you lost yours in exchange for the crappiest sprint in the game ever on a whopping 45 sec cd.

Unholy DK doesn't suffer as much from the lack of mobility because your dots are powerful and your pet leaps and is doing damage in the meantime as well in between death coils.

Meanwhile, Frost DK is miserable. What are you going to do, spam howling blast while walking to a target while WW is on CD? It's just bad. Frist DK is supposed to be this hard hitting monster when on a target. It's supposed to be the chasobolt destruction warlock of melee.

But it isn't. Frost DK is simply gimped, with far more drawbacks than positives. They really aren't balancing classes with utility/mobility vs. damage at all. Otherwise DH's and rogues and warriors wouldn't be taking a dump on frost DK when on target.

with talent WW is pretty decent but without its crappy wtt talent its better then wod DA same cd but more spedd expect fact you cant attack which is kind made up for with our pet doing more %of our dmg then in wod

[Lucrece]

Problem is if you trait WW on unholy you lose Corpse Shield, which is immensely useful for soaking utility.

Unfortunately for frost they have an even more useless set of talent tiers, their stun tier which is a joke tying Remorseless Winter stun to a DPS cd (the other talents are garbage), and then their defensive row where the WW talent doesn't help WW become better, it just turns it into a still inferior version of the alternative shield talent (which is still far worse than Corpse Shield).

Frost also pays this double tax on survivability because the DPS loss of Death Strike over Frost Strike is massively larger than that of substituting a Death Strike for Deathcoil.

[Piz813]

1- UH is well ahead frost, ESPECIALLY on aoe where frost is pretty mediocre since they gutted HB and frost scythe only does good damage with a proc up which might not happen enough by the time mobs are dead.

They overnerfed frost unintentionally by fixing those tripled proc rates that were going on with Rime alongside other nerfs to talents like Freezing Fog and only compensated by making Sindragosa's Fury less bad (but it's still bad for a 5 min cd, does significantly less damage than a fire elemental let alone metamorphosis, which are comparable cooldowns at base 5 min).

2- Haste affects all classes, whatever reduction to one skill does not affect its relative standing to another. I didn't say UH aoe burst was bad, most of the positive points were in UH's favor when I did the comparison, but in terms of a single button to kill some people NOW, Eye Beam is pretty beastly, and to top it off it does not detract from your single target priority damage.

UH DK is more certainly the strongest spec in the game for PvE right now, although pretty mediocre in PvP at the moment.

The problem is, and I'm warning people, don't fixate on numbers so much as toolkit. Balance druids early alpha were doing really high priority target damage, now they're utterly mediocre after nerfs. Frost DK used to be really, really good in alpha as well, until those nerfs came in. The flexibility of a toolkit doesn't change with numbers, that's why mages have most of the time remained on top alongside rogues and hunters.

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You haven't played DH, obviously. If you need mobility for any survival purposes, Blur (your 1 min cd 35% DR+50% dodge that's miles ahead of 3 min cd 20% DR 8 sec IBF) with the artifact gives you back two fel rush charges immediately.

What's more, you always have one fel rush charge available. That's one charge more than DK has.

And since we're dispelling your ignorance on the subject, DH mastery also increases their movement speed.

My DH is currently sitting at 23% bonus movement speed from the mastery, which I'm not even stacking. So they have virtually a Death's Advance built in while you lost yours in exchange for the crappiest sprint in the game ever on a whopping 45 sec cd.

Unholy DK doesn't suffer as much from the lack of mobility because your dots are powerful and your pet leaps and is doing damage in the meantime as well in between death coils.

Meanwhile, Frost DK is miserable. What are you going to do, spam howling blast while walking to a target while WW is on CD? It's just bad. Frost DK is supposed to be this hard hitting monster when on a target. It's supposed to be the chasobolt destruction warlock of melee.

But it isn't. Frost DK is simply gimped, with far more drawbacks than positives. They really aren't balancing classes with utility/mobility vs. damage at all. Otherwise DH's and rogues and warriors wouldn't be taking a dump on frost DK when on target.

Clearly you haven't touched frost since cata and are just repeating the garbage you hear from other uninformed.

Frost is not spam howling blast anymore. With a fly powered weapon and select talents frost is doing good and competitive in beta. EVERY one and their cousin is UH. They all have the same exact talent choices. No variety. Frost has a few routes as I mentioned. No one has the same build on beta that I inspect and they all agree frost is good in mythic 10+. Unless you physically played both specs on beta with both weapons powered up, then you can trash a special you don't like all you want