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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    I'm not sure about it, honestly. Does the current US immigration program affect wealth inequality, and if so, how does it affect it? I've never seen any studies on this.

    I would expect it to not have a direct effect, since immigrants here have pretty much the same rights and are able to take the same jobs as "native" citizens.
    It effects it in two ways.

    It bottoms out the minimum wage. This has two effects. One it devalues the amount non skilled work pays while at the same time increasing taxation on the middle class eating away at their spending power.

    The second it heavily stresses public utilities that either degrade or require even more tax funding.

    Immigration to a country only works if you take a very small number of immigrants for roles that your society LACKS Doctors, engineers, and pretty much anything with a stem doctorate.


    This is a relatively new reality back in the day just a short thirty to fifty years ago depending on how you measure it. The states had enough low skilled labor it could afford immigration with a more open door policy.

    Unless we adapt extremely harsh tariffs though the factory work to maintain such a system is never coming back and we are left with our current situation.

  2. #22
    Warchief Bollocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    It effects it in two ways.

    It bottoms out the minimum wage. This has two effects. One it devalues the amount non skilled work pays while at the same time increasing taxation on the middle class eating away at their spending power.

    The second it heavily stresses public utilities that either degrade or require even more tax funding.

    Immigration to a country only works if you take a very small number of immigrants for roles that your society LACKS Doctors, engineers, and pretty much anything with a stem doctorate.


    This is a relatively new reality back in the day just a short thirty to fifty years ago depending on how you measure it. The states had enough low skilled labor it could afford immigration with a more open door policy.

    Unless we adapt extremely harsh tariffs though the factory work to maintain such a system is never coming back and we are left with our current situation.
    On your first claim you are right, but not completely, mainly because the works performed by illegal immigrants are not commonly performed by natives. Also your claim that it drives down wages is partially right as well, because it drives wages down on sectors where they compete against other natives, but in the overall they drive wages up (both low skilled and high skilled immigrants).

    The second claim is just flat out wrong as illegal immigrants do end up adding to a 22 billion surplus during 2003 and adjusted to the current population and dollars it arounds to 36 billion dollars. This is according to Borjas the most ardid oppositor to immigration.

    Also you are not going to like the solution to the problem, which is more immigration.

  3. #23
    There is nothing wrong with immigration nor income inequality.

  4. #24
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    I'm not sure about it, honestly. Does the current US immigration program affect wealth inequality, and if so, how does it affect it? I've never seen any studies on this.

    I would expect it to not have a direct effect, since immigrants here have pretty much the same rights and are able to take the same jobs as "native" citizens.
    Well if you increase the supply of a thing, the relative value of that thing goes down, in this case labor is the thing.

    There is one critical way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Well if you increase the supply of a thing, the relative value of that thing goes down, in this case labor is the thing.

    There is one critical way.
    It's not just supply that is increased, but also demand.

    You want to fix the immigration problem that affects wealth inequality, fix the wages that is allowed to be paid to illegals (or anyone tbh). Allowing dollars an hour to be paid legally is the main problem.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  6. #26
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    France has lost 4 points of average IQ over the last 10 years because they have so many black people(other foreigners aswell but mostly africans) now.

    This is no joke or insult. This is factually true. Sadly.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Bollocks View Post
    On your first claim you are right, but not completely, mainly because the works performed by illegal immigrants are not commonly performed by natives. Also your claim that it drives down wages is partially right as well, because it drives wages down on sectors where they compete against other natives, but in the overall they drive wages up (both low skilled and high skilled immigrants).

    The second claim is just flat out wrong as illegal immigrants do end up adding to a 22 billion surplus during 2003 and adjusted to the current population and dollars it arounds to 36 billion dollars. This is according to Borjas the most ardid oppositor to immigration.

    Also you are not going to like the solution to the problem, which is more immigration.
    Your rebuttal is sadly incorrect.

    There exists no job a native is unwilling to do. There exists jobs they won't for minimum (or in some cases below minimum) wage. Immigrants simply drive down the wage they don't add any wealth save for those who are already wealthy.

    The second only increases total wealth if its SKILLED workers that are immigrating not unskilled. Skilled immigration is good and we need more of it. Accepting anyone just adds to the debt.

  8. #28
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    It's not just supply that is increased, but also demand.

    You want to fix the immigration problem that affects wealth inequality, fix the wages that is allowed to be paid to illegals (or anyone tbh). Allowing dollars an hour to be paid legally is the main problem.
    Without the cheap exploitable labor, the only other reason to import people is a desire to prop up property values by ensure there is a ready supply of demand.

    So Immigration hurts the poor in two ways, competition for housing AND lower wages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bollocks View Post
    On your first claim you are right, but not completely, mainly because the works performed by illegal immigrants are not commonly performed by natives. Also your claim that it drives down wages is partially right as well, because it drives wages down on sectors where they compete against other natives, but in the overall they drive wages up (both low skilled and high skilled immigrants).

    The second claim is just flat out wrong as illegal immigrants do end up adding to a 22 billion surplus during 2003 and adjusted to the current population and dollars it arounds to 36 billion dollars. This is according to Borjas the most ardid oppositor to immigration.

    Also you are not going to like the solution to the problem, which is more immigration.
    People always say this but where are these magical jobs that Americans are simply too good to do? There isn't one because it's a strawman argument with no basis in reality. There are jobs immigrants will do while being paid pennies under the table that a citizen wouldn't do for less than minimum wage. So I can only conclude that your argument is that you expect Americans to compete with immigrants who are willing to take a job for usually less than half the minimum wage under the table and when they refuse they are simply stuck up and don't want to do the job because it's beneath them.
    Last edited by hydrium; 2016-08-20 at 04:31 AM.

  10. #30
    Warchief Bollocks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    Your rebuttal is sadly incorrect.

    There exists no job a native is unwilling to do. There exists jobs they won't for minimum (or in some cases below minimum) wage. Immigrants simply drive down the wage they don't add any wealth save for those who are already wealthy.

    The second only increases total wealth if its SKILLED workers that are immigrating not unskilled. Skilled immigration is good and we need more of it. Accepting anyone just adds to the debt.
    First claim is incorrect. As proven in the already linked article and here as well. The main problem in your analysis is a failure to understand comparative advantage and complementary effects.

    Second Claim is incorrect as well, here Borjas adds up to the point.
    Important remark:
    but only by about 0.2 percent. U.S. natives’ economic gains from immigration, therefore, are relatively small: about $22 billion per year (in 2003 dollars). Of course, not everyone benefits equally from immigration; workers with competing skills lose, while owners of land and capital gain.
    There are downsides to illegal immigration and immigration in general, which its showed in the bolded part. But that effect even to Borjas amounts to 5% down in wages. Which mind you, he has been answered here, here and here.

    All of this studies show the same, that even low skilled immigration drives up wages.
    Last edited by Bollocks; 2016-08-20 at 04:48 AM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ji-tae View Post
    France has lost 4 points of average IQ over the last 10 years because they have so many black people(other foreigners aswell but mostly africans) now.

    This is no joke or insult. This is factually true. Sadly.
    Which means absolutely squat. The French haven't gotten dumber, it's just the new immigrants haven't been educated as well (which is likely due to a wide variety of issues France has with immigrants, here's a hint: they don't treat them well) and the law of averages means more dumb people counted with the same number of smart people=lower average total. Averages and statistics are useless in the minds of people who don't understand how they work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Well if you increase the supply of a thing, the relative value of that thing goes down, in this case labor is the thing.

    There is one critical way.
    Sure, but immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are still people and therefore require goods and services to be provided to them, just like anyone else; cars, food, room and board, heat, gas, etc... Driving up demand, which in turn drives up the demand for labor.

    But it's also a strong case for not treating humans as commodities. The value of their work may go down to some degree, but that doesn't decrease their value as human beings.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  12. #32
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post

    Sure, but immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are still people and therefore require goods and services to be provided to them, just like anyone else; cars, food, room and board, heat, gas, etc... Driving up demand, which in turn drives up the demand for labor.

    But it's also a strong case for not treating humans as commodities. The value of their work may go down to some degree, but that doesn't decrease their value as human beings.
    Potentially, but not all social classes suffer the consequences of immigrants the same. If you hire a maid, or of the social class that can, it is for sure great. You get greater demand and purchases at the businesses you are invested in AND you get cheaper maids and any property you own keeps its value to to inflating demand.

    If your of the sort of social class that works as a maid, well then it basically sucks. And let us not get on our high horse, in terms of material well being it makes their lives much more wretched.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Without the cheap exploitable labor, the only other reason to import people is a desire to prop up property values by ensure there is a ready supply of demand.

    So Immigration hurts the poor in two ways, competition for housing AND lower wages.
    Taking out the labor is pretty much the reason to smuggle in illegals. Competition will exist with or without them, they are simply people that mostly take part in labor jobs. They don't exist just to work, they also consume. Deporting them is simply reducing the country's population in the end. At this point, there is little indication that the U.S. is facing overpopulation.

    Think of it like this.

    a) deport them, then it's just citizens competing against citizens.

    b) do nothing, citizens competing against illegals.

    c) grant citizenship, then it's just citizens competing against citizens.

    Option a) is pretty much the same result but with lower population.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  14. #34
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    i feel like this is an argument from authority.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Well yeah, but that's not the fault of immigration. That's the fault of our capitalist race-to-the-bottom system that encourages paying people pennies while all the wealth pools at the top. So if Bob costs 5 dollars and makes 10 dollars for the company, that's 5 dollars of profit. But is Illegal Immigrant Man costs 1 dollar and makes 9 dollars for the company, that's 8 dollars for the top. So yes, wealth inequality has increased.

    Is it the illegal's fault they're willing to work for less? No. It's the fault of companies who hire illegals, outsource workers and undermine the American economy in a drive for short-term profits over long-term social responsibility, economic sustainability and national loyalty. These companies are anti-american, and should be treated as enemies of the state.
    The majority of illegals are NOT hired by huge corporations that make billions... they are hired by small businesses: construction, trades, janitorial, franchise or small restaurants, etc. Normally they would have to pay a citizen a higher wage, but not with illegal workers so they are able to undercut many of their competitors to bid more work, which puts even more Americans out of work.

    Illegal workers are loyal, it is hard to successfully slip past the social security verification without valid credentials and most are unwilling to try this late in the game. They either got in before verification became a thing or they work for employers who won't and don't check. If any tax withholding is done, the majority claim 5 or 6 dependents in order to get the least amount of money taken out. You will notice that illegals will clump up at jobs that lack verification or ones that pretend to but purposely ignore it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xekus View Post
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  16. #36
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Taking out the labor is pretty much the reason to smuggle in illegals. Competition will exist with or without them, they are simply people that mostly take part in labor jobs. They don't exist just to work, they also consume. Deporting them is simply reducing the country's population in the end. At this point, there is little indication that the U.S. is facing overpopulation.

    Think of it like this.

    a) deport them, then it's just citizens competing against citizens.

    b) do nothing, citizens competing against illegals.

    c) grant citizenship, then it's just citizens competing against citizens.

    Option a) is pretty much the same result but with lower population.
    They consume to the benefit of the same people who want them for cheap labor, for the majority of the population the benefit are negligible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Potentially, but not all social classes suffer the consequences of immigrants the same. If you hire a maid, or of the social class that can, it is for sure great. You get greater demand and purchases at the businesses you are invested in AND you get cheaper maids and any property you own keeps its value to to inflating demand.

    If your of the sort of social class that works as a maid, well then it basically sucks. And let us not get on our high horse, in terms of material well being it makes their lives much more wretched.
    But that's not a fault of immigration, or the responsibility of immigrants to burden. That's a fault of our flawed capitalist system which unequally burdens some social classes and not others.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  18. #38
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    But that's not a fault of immigration, or the responsibility of immigrants to burden. That's a fault of our flawed capitalist system which unequally burdens some social classes and not others.
    True, the immigrants are blameless but the polyannish types living in their upper class neighborhoods who act as if no ill's come are just tone deaf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  19. #39
    Merely a Setback Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zormis View Post
    No, it's not crap, it means our schools are crap and should be fixed.
    Nope, it just means we're more educated to the point of not taking shit from bad employers.

  20. #40
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    You already have an immigration-related thread here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...al-Immigration

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