More women should freeze their eggs and focus on their careers.

[Ihnasir]

Or you can shut up and let them choose what to do with their own lives. Just a thought.

[Halyon]

Yeah that seems like a 'glass half empty' approach. I enjoy my life, even the struggles - so I wouldn't have a problem with bringing someone into the world to experience it. Unless they have a serious genetic disorder, in which case that's basically torture.

As to the first bit, I just hope we don't move completely past the idea that kids are an important milestone. I'm of the opinion that life is more valuable that money and career success; the latter two are dependent on the first for their value. Unfortunately what I see happening is a switch in valuation from life to money and corporate success. I don't think this is morally right. If you die without having kids, your legacy is gone. You become nothing.

That sounds like 'kids are borderline obligation' then. Even if I had the means to 100% have good, stable support for a child, doesn't mean I want one, or should have one for the sake of it, because it "wouldn't be a problem".

If I have kids, it'll be because I want to have them, and because I want to love them. I don't.

I don't care about my genetics. It won't matter to me when I'm dead. Those points simply aren't valuable to me. I value something like the earth not cacking it and dying in a 150 years because humans are abusing it, yet it (very likely) won't within my lifetime.

I just have different values to you. Kids being one I don't at all share past the point of "I don't want to burden any potential children I could have with me as a parent".

[Underverse]

Must admit that sounds a bit like a pro-life rhetoric, but hey, if it's true, it is. I'll look at it closer later. Thanks for the links!

Wowowoo no I am not pro-life in any way. I favor post birth (within a week) euthanasia of irreversibly and critically disabled infants, for example. On the other hand I'm a biologist, so I think people should do what they can to attune themselves to their biology - which in the case of women means having kids if they are able and willing and can obtain a supportive environment.

[Captain N]

So nowhere in this discussion so far can a woman both have children and a career? I mean I understand there's a crowd of people on MMO-C who think all women are just after a man's money....but there are actually women out there that can do both.

[Grimbold21]

Grown men playing Pokemon Go instead of looking after their children and playing games both virtual and real for large chunks of the day while their partner slaves.

This is top quality thinking right here.

Implies men playing pokemon go is bad
Implies that men playing pokemon do not pay attention to their children
Implies that all men do is play games all day while their female counterparts do all the work.

Could you be more biased? Or is it projection?

[Halyon]

Wowowoo no I am not pro-life in any way. I favor post birth (within a week) euthanasia of irreversibly and critically disabled infants, for example. On the other hand I'm a biologist, so I think people should do what they can to attune themselves to their biology - which in the case of women means having kids if they are able and willing and can obtain a supportive environment.

Nono, I didn't say so either. ^^ Just said it -sounded- like it. They did get it right that there's no link with breast cancer and abortion too, and it's a government site, so less chance of political bias.

Don't worry, wasn't judging you for anything!

[Underverse]

That sounds like 'kids are borderline obligation' then. Even if I had the means to 100% have good, stable support for a child, doesn't mean I want one, or should have one for the sake of it, because it "wouldn't be a problem".

If I have kids, it'll be because I want to have them, and because I want to love them. I don't.

If you have the resources and stable environment to have a kid, I do think it's a borderline obligation. For both men and women; it simply manifests in different ways. The man who hoards his wealth/spends it on himself is being greedy and selfish. The woman who chooses to pursue a career for herself and never has kids is likewise being greedy and selfish. The only difference is that men have a baseline obligation to pursue a career, and the determinative factor of greed is whether or not they share their success; whereas women can make the choice earlier on and to varying degrees.

That being said, I would also say that part of having a stable environment is having loving parents. If the parents will not love their children (or at least have loving grandparents), there would be no such obligation. So you're kind of covered.

[Deleted]

This is top quality thinking right here.

Implies men playing pokemon go is bad
Implies that men playing pokemon do not pay attention to their children
Implies that all men do is play games all day while their female counterparts do all the work.

Could you be more biased? Or is it projection?

This is what I thought too. Op accuses others of being biased and projective yet does the exact same thing.

[Underverse]

So nowhere in this discussion so far can a woman both have children and a career? I mean I understand there's a crowd of people on MMO-C who think all women are just after a man's money....but there are actually women out there that can do both.

I completely agree and I think this is a critical misconception. I personally know many women who have done both with incredible success. It really just depends on how hard you want to work, and what your goals are.

I don't think we should be pushing women either way. There is value in childbearing. There is value in a career (if you use it to support others).

[Deleted]

If you have the resources and stable environment to have a kid, I do think it's a borderline obligation. For both men and women; it simply manifests in different ways. The man who hoards his wealth/spends it on himself is being greedy and selfish. The woman who chooses to pursue a career for herself and never has kids is likewise being greedy and selfish. The only difference is that men have a baseline obligation to pursue a career, and the determinative factor of greed is whether or not they share their success; whereas women can make the choice earlier on and to varying degrees.

That being said, I would also say that part of having a stable environment is having loving parents. If the parents will not love their children (or at least have loving grandparents), there would be no such obligation. So you're kind of covered.

There is no obligation to have kids. A man who spends his wealth on himself is a man who has earned that wealth, the exact same goes for females too. Neither is being greedy or selfish.

[Deleted]

This reads like more of an excerpt from your personal diary than anything substantial. Women are perceived to date up because most young men are child brains just have a look at the masculinity crisis that we are experiencing as this minute. Grown men playing Pokemon Go instead of looking after their children and playing games both virtual and real for large chunks of the day while their partner slaves. Society is changing as women are doing better as you've mentioned women are graduating college at a higher rate than men while men appear to be lagging behind.

Do tell us what you feel, your crush plays Pokemon Go and doesn't care about you? Am I close?

[GennGreymane]

Medically no...

Having children when young improves the odds everything goes well.

Younger women for older men is the recipe for success.

Except dont men have similar issues with their sperm as they age?

[Ghostmcghosty]

Except dont men have similar issues with their sperm as they age?

Not really if I recall correct. Their sperm count may lower overall, but a 60 year old man would produce a healthy child with a young woman.


It may just take 5 viagra pills of attempts vs 1. Giggety

[Halyon]

If you have the resources and stable environment to have a kid, I do think it's a borderline obligation. For both men and women; it simply manifests in different ways. The man who hoards his wealth/spends it on himself is being greedy and selfish. The woman who chooses to pursue a career for herself and never has kids is likewise being greedy and selfish. The only difference is that men have a baseline obligation to pursue a career, and the determinative factor of greed is whether or not they share their success; whereas women can make the choice earlier on and to varying degrees.

That being said, I would also say that part of having a stable environment is having loving parents. If the parents will not love their children (or at least have loving grandparents), there would be no such obligation. So you're kind of covered.

Right, semi-story time. My mom has always wanted a large family, because she's the introverted type that prefers just being around kin. She has 3 kids, me, and my 2 younger siblings. None of us so far want to have kids, and only one (the youngest at 20!) are with a stable partner and she's engaged. She herself has been through the absolute wringer with men, one of them an abusive arsewipe of a dickhead.

We're not obligated to have kids just because, even if she'd love to occasionally fawn over grandkids... Yeah, I think it's a shame, and I feel sorry for her, because it does make her a little lonely...but she still has us. So why exactly should I dedicate most of my life to raising kids she can dote on, while 80% of the time, I'd feel miserable, caged, and possibly having suffered permanent changes to my mind and body because of it. Nevermind the sleep deprevation, ugh...

We're all selfish somewere. Both for wanting kids, and not wanting them. Having kids are such a huge dedication, commitment, and change to ones life that it's not something that should just be a thing people should do. It's something they should do if they want to do it, not a second before.

But as for not derailing; adoption is an alternative if you don't want to go through the physical pains of birthing a child, or can't biologically get one, and I fully support it, and even if the chances of me doing it myself are slim, I'd much sooner do that then try for a biological one.

[GennGreymane]

Not really if I recall correct. Their sperm count may lower overall, but a 60 year old man would produce a healthy child with a young woman.


It may just take 5 viagra pills of attempts vs 1. Giggety

Actually some issues seem to occur

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a564598/...r-babys-health

http://www.menshealth.com/health/age...hering-a-child

[Ghostmcghosty]

Actually some issues seem to occur

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a564598/...r-babys-health

http://www.menshealth.com/health/age...hering-a-child

http://yourfertility.org.au/for-men/age/

Yeah, that's basically what I said. Your sperm quality drops and it will take longer to produce a kid. Even one of the links you posted noted the risk of things like Down's syndrome was slightly increased. They didn't even give a number so it can't be significant.

Bottom line is the risk of issues for an older man is minimal. The largest hurdle is actually producing the kid.

[Bigcountry11782]

The blame lies solely on men who don't want to settle. Most women you'll find want to have children when they find the right guy but these partners often do not want to settle down and you hear this all the time about men claiming that women have tried to trap them with a pregnancy. Let's not forget the biggest proponents of abortions are lousy and opportunistic men who want to have sex without any responsibility.

Many women who freeze their eggs do it because they have been backed into a corner as their body betrays them as they get older and their fertility wanes. Staying in a committed relationship for 4+ years only to not have it work out puts women at a greater disadvantage coming out of any breakup because they have wasted valuable time, that is, the best years that they could have gotten pregnant which is between 19-26 years of age. Men just move on because unlike women they don't have a reproductive clock.

The blame lies solely on the man?Yep Feminazi alert smh

[GennGreymane]

Yeah, that's basically what I said. Your sperm quality drops and it will take longer to produce a kid. Even one of the links you posted noted the risk of things like Down's syndrome was slightly increased. They didn't even give a number so it can't be significant.

Bottom line is the risk of issues for an older man is minimal. The largest hurdle is actually producing the kid.

They were simple explanations I didnt feel like going into deeper studdies yet, but yes defects are more likely as you grow older.

People seem to think the man should be significantly older with a much younger woman, when in actuality, it should be a 13-15 year old woman with a 15-17 year old man based on the human species natural life expectancy

[Halyon]

The blame lies solely on the man?Yep Feminazi alert smh

Go on, make an ass out of both of you. That'll work!

- - - Updated - - -

They were simple explanations I didnt feel like going into deeper studdies yet, but yes defects are more likely as you grow older.

People seem to think the man should be significantly older with a much younger woman, when in actuality, it should be a 13-15 year old woman with a 15-17 year old man based on the human species natural life expectancy

Those are kids, not men and women...

[GennGreymane]

Go on, make an ass out of both of you. That'll work!

- - - Updated - - -



Those are kids, not men and women...

Humans used to live to about 30. If people want to talk about "how we evolved"....