How to properly use Phoenix Flames in your rotation?

[Ctee]

the rotation when you have HS up is simple- ROP>Fireball(or scorch, this is the one part i question about)>combust during the cast time>pyro>pyro>fireblast>pyro>fireblast>pyro>flame on>fireblast>pyro>fireblast>pyro>pf>pyro>pf>pyro>pf>pyro. You use the fire blasts in the beginning since your only real concern is pumping out as many insta pyros as possible

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the end of the combustion phase, after you've used all 4 fireblasts that you get with flame on

This is all I needed, thank you for making it so simple.

[Deleted]

My understanding is you never pop combustion before rune of power is down. I basically fish for a crit, after that I fireblast during the cast - or if youve got time, then wait for a real Hot streak. You cast RoP when hot streak is already up, as it finishes its a combustion pyro, followed by blast pyro blast pyro blast pyro. This is where I get curious of scorch vs PF. If you get more pyros out during combustion with Scorch, then scorch is better. If you get an even amount, Phoenix is better simply because its a stronger nuke.


If we're talking a real pre-pull, then I suppose you start with a pre-cast pyro, depending on if it crits or not for your rotation. if no crit cast fireballs until crit, and the rotation above. If it does crit, then start the rotation above from there. Any more experienced mages feel free to comment.

My problem is, when do you use the other RoP... I've spent a lot of time on dummies and I just can't find a good spot for it. Im torn between saving 2Phoenix, Flame On (they are syn ced with timers) and just stand in the rune using fireblasts/phoenixes to ditch out some pyros which may, or may not crit.

Alternative two, is just use the RoP when it feels good, that you got nice abilities ready for da big depz. Im just torn how good what is, other than that, dont sit on 3 phoenixes or 2 blasts, if both come up, use them to dump a pyro.


Lets hope they make RoP 2min CD, 1charge. Sync with Combustion and be done with it xD

[Deleted]

On pre pull I would go, precast pyro, pf, rop, pb if precast crit, otherwise fb during rop cast, pb, fb, pb, fb, until flame on fbs are gone, pb, pf, pb, pf, pb. I doubt it will be worth to delay burst with fishing with fireball, especially with prepot and trinkets. Like this you will guarantee early rop which is more important than wasting some pfs. Second rop simply with next flame on, starting with hs up of course. But this is only in my head.

[Sylvaeres]

My understanding is you never pop combustion before rune of power is down. I basically fish for a crit, after that I fireblast during the cast - or if youve got time, then wait for a real Hot streak. You cast RoP when hot streak is already up, as it finishes its a combustion pyro, followed by blast pyro blast pyro blast pyro. This is where I get curious of scorch vs PF. If you get more pyros out during combustion with Scorch, then scorch is better. If you get an even amount, Phoenix is better simply because its a stronger nuke.


If we're talking a real pre-pull, then I suppose you start with a pre-cast pyro, depending on if it crits or not for your rotation. if no crit cast fireballs until crit, and the rotation above. If it does crit, then start the rotation above from there. Any more experienced mages feel free to comment.

My problem is, when do you use the other RoP... I've spent a lot of time on dummies and I just can't find a good spot for it. Im torn between saving 2Phoenix, Flame On (they are syn ced with timers) and just stand in the rune using fireblasts/phoenixes to ditch out some pyros which may, or may not crit.

Alternative two, is just use the RoP when it feels good, that you got nice abilities ready for da big depz. Im just torn how good what is, other than that, dont sit on 3 phoenixes or 2 blasts, if both come up, use them to dump a pyro.


Lets hope they make RoP 2min CD, 1charge. Sync with Combustion and be done with it xD

A) you never pop combustion or the accompanying rune of power unless you have hot streak, otherwise you're losing a ton of dps. Read the post I put right before yours and font deviate from it until there are hard, definitive facts saying otherwise

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On pre pull I would go, precast pyro, pf, rop, pb if precast crit, otherwise fb during rop cast, pb, fb, pb, fb, until flame on fbs are gone, pb, pf, pb, pf, pb. I doubt it will be worth to delay burst with fishing with fireball, especially with prepot and trinkets. Like this you will guarantee early rop which is more important than wasting some pfs. Second rop simply with next flame on, starting with hs up of course. But this is only in my head.

You as well. You absolutely fish for procs, there is not a single second of combustion that you can afford to waste whatsoever.

[Deleted]

On pre pull I would go, precast pyro, pf, rop, pb if precast crit, otherwise fb during rop cast, pb, fb, pb, fb, until flame on fbs are gone, pb, pf, pb, pf, pb. I doubt it will be worth to delay burst with fishing with fireball, especially with prepot and trinkets. Like this you will guarantee early rop which is more important than wasting some pfs. Second rop simply with next flame on, starting with hs up of course. But this is only in my head.

This is how I will start of a burst as well with no TW/BL. If you have TW/BL up I will follow precast-Pyro up with fireball (if no pyro crit) and fish for HU -> FB ->CDs then just continue as normal. The reasoning is that I think you can manage to fit all 3 PF inside of Combustion with the lower GCD during the extra haste. And with that extra haste fishing 2-3 fireballs is not that penalizing.

A) you never pop combustion or the accompanying rune of power unless you have hot streak, otherwise you're losing a ton of dps. Read the post I put right before yours and font deviate from it until there are hard, definitive facts saying otherwise

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You as well. You absolutely fish for procs, there is not a single second of combustion that you can afford to waste whatsoever.

If you mean fish for HU then I agree, if on the other hand you speak of casting fireballs until you have a HS then I'm not sure. You are wasting time on your prepot and on-equip trinkets while sitting at 2/2 RoP, and even with 50%+ crit you might be unlucky and cast 10 fireballs without critting twice in a row.

I have no concrete proof, but this is what I've gathered from reading and watching "high end" players. Ofc they could be wrong... time will tell.

[Sylvaeres]

This is how I will start of a burst as well with no TW/BL. If you have TW/BL up I will follow precast-Pyro up with fireball (if no pyro crit) and fish for HU -> FB ->CDs then just continue as normal. The reasoning is that I think you can manage to fit all 3 PF inside of Combustion with the lower GCD during the extra haste. And with that extra haste fishing 2-3 fireballs is not that penalizing.



If you mean fish for HU then I agree, if on the other hand you speak of casting fireballs until you have a HS then I'm not sure. You are wasting time on your prepot and on-equip trinkets while sitting at 2/2 RoP, and even with 50%+ crit you might be unlucky and cast 10 fireballs without critting twice in a row.

I have no concrete proof, but this is what I've gathered from reading and watching "high end" players. Ofc they could be wrong... time will tell.

Ya that's why I'm more of a fan of scorch spamming to fish. It is absolutely mandatory to save all fireblasts for combustion. There may be an argument for using phoenix flame one time to get to the hot streak portion, but I've yet to see any concrete evidence

[Deleted]

I'm more of a fan of scorch spamming to fish.

Have you noticed we have a spell that buffs uncritted hits? Scorch doesn't get it. What you do seems to be guessing and it's probably discarded with sims.

[Sylvaeres]

Have you noticed we have a spell that buffs uncritted hits? Scorch doesn't get it. What you do seems to be guessing and it's probably discarded with sims.

Hot Streak requires 2 crits in a row, that buff only gets us one crit, essentially being nothing useful. It will only ever grant us Heating Up. The damage during Combustion burn far exceeds any small pool of damage in the seconds of time preceding that. Also, general consensus in the Mage Discord seems to be Scorch spam.

[Deleted]

general consensus in the Mage Discord seems to be Scorch spam.

No. What gave you that idea? I can read simscraft scripts (the relevant part at least) and I'm pretty sure scorch is only used on combustion now and the niche case of a legendary.

[Toas]

There may be an argument for using phoenix flame one time to get to the hot streak portion, but I've yet to see any concrete evidence

What would be the argument against it though? I don't think it's possible to get to haste levels where you use all 3 PFs inside of combustion on top of your 4 fire blasts. Maybe during heroism, but otherwise I'm skeptical. Even if you could fit all 3 PFs inside combustion, I still doubt you wouldn't use one to get a pre-combustion Heating Up. Surely you want to get combustion and an RoP charge on CD ASAP, so they come up again ASAP. I don't see why you'd want to sit there, while your prepot and possibly trinket procs are running, and wait for you to get lucky getting 2 crits in a row by only chain-casting fireballs/scorch when you have a 100% crit spell waiting there that's otherwise (potentially, depending on haste) going to be unused. You could easily sit there and cast 10+ scorches in a row before you get a Hot Streak. I can totally see a situation, especially with Kindling, where you get in less combustions overall during a fight because you spent so long trying to get 2 back-to-back crits before your initial combustion. This becomes even worse when you get Phoenix Reborn, as you're wasting all of its CD reduction procs because you're sitting on 3/3 PF instead of a potential 2/3 PF.

To me, it seems the optimal opener, assuming your pre-cast pyro doesn't crit, would be: fireball/scorch (whichever sims determine to be better) until you crit once -> phoenix flames -> RoP -> combustion -> pyro -> FB -> pyro -> FB -> pyro -> flame on + FB -> pyro -> FB -> pyro -> phoenix flames -> pyro -> phoenix flames -> pyro. If you still have combustion time left then repeat scorch -> pyro until it runs out.

[Sylvaeres]

No. What gave you that idea? I can read simscraft scripts (the relevant part at least) and I'm pretty sure scorch is only used on combustion now and the niche case of a legendary.

That's what we're talking about. Scorch to build Hs for combustion

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What would be the argument against it though? I don't think it's possible to get to haste levels where you use all 3 PFs inside of combustion on top of your 4 fire blasts. Maybe during heroism, but otherwise I'm skeptical. Even if you could fit all 3 PFs inside combustion, I still doubt you wouldn't use one to get a pre-combustion Heating Up. Surely you want to get combustion and an RoP charge on CD ASAP, so they come up again ASAP. I don't see why you'd want to sit there, while your prepot and possibly trinket procs are running, and wait for you to get lucky getting 2 crits in a row by only chain-casting fireballs/scorch when you have a 100% crit spell waiting there that's otherwise (potentially, depending on haste) going to be unused. You could easily sit there and cast 10+ scorches in a row before you get a Hot Streak. I can totally see a situation, especially with Kindling, where you get in less combustions overall during a fight because you spent so long trying to get 2 back-to-back crits before your initial combustion. This becomes even worse when you get Phoenix Reborn, as you're wasting all of its CD reduction procs because you're sitting on 3/3 PF instead of a potential 2/3 PF.

To me, it seems the optimal opener, assuming your pre-cast pyro doesn't crit, would be: fireball/scorch (whichever sims determine to be better) until you crit once -> phoenix flames -> RoP -> combustion -> pyro -> FB -> pyro -> FB -> pyro -> flame on + FB -> pyro -> FB -> pyro -> phoenix flames -> pyro -> phoenix flames -> pyro. If you still have combustion time left then repeat scorch -> pyro until it runs out.

You definitely make a solid argument for your case, but the 2nd ROP on opener needs to have something to build on, so I'd personally prefer to save the guaranteed crit for build pyro during that.

[drinoff]

Hello Guys
New here trying Fire Mage or if i can say Reroling a Mage for Legion from , Much loved Lock(since the Lock is in awful state right now)
Just wanted to thank You about all teh info about priorities and rotation , i learned a lot in here , only problem i have is i am missing those hot streak procs when Pyromaniac Procs i guess i do this since i am a new and still need time to get to the synergy of the class/spec
Personaly think that if Hot Streak is a Stacable buff (max 2 charges) the fire spec will be complete but that is me.. The spec itself is so fast to play that i am still learning after the boringness of Demo lock , it feels like a Wake up call
Anyway thanks to everyone

[Deleted]

That's what we're talking about. Scorch to build Hs for combustion

If you meant during Combustion you threw me off the scent with the word "Fish". There is no need to fish under Combustion. It's a 100% chance.

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If you meant before Combusion the sim does not fish with scorch.

[Nivek]

If you meant during Combustion you threw me off the scent with the word "Fish". There is no need to fish under Combustion. It's a 100% chance.

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If you meant before Combusion the sim does not fish with scorch.

I believe he means to use scorch to fish for HS prior to popping combustion so he can start out with a HS before using his combustion.

What would be the argument against it though? I don't think it's possible to get to haste levels where you use all 3 PFs inside of combustion on top of your 4 fire blasts. Maybe during heroism, but otherwise I'm skeptical. Even if you could fit all 3 PFs inside combustion, I still doubt you wouldn't use one to get a pre-combustion Heating Up. Surely you want to get combustion and an RoP charge on CD ASAP, so they come up again ASAP. I don't see why you'd want to sit there, while your prepot and possibly trinket procs are running, and wait for you to get lucky getting 2 crits in a row by only chain-casting fireballs/scorch when you have a 100% crit spell waiting there that's otherwise (potentially, depending on haste) going to be unused. You could easily sit there and cast 10+ scorches in a row before you get a Hot Streak. I can totally see a situation, especially with Kindling, where you get in less combustions overall during a fight because you spent so long trying to get 2 back-to-back crits before your initial combustion. This becomes even worse when you get Phoenix Reborn, as you're wasting all of its CD reduction procs because you're sitting on 3/3 PF instead of a potential 2/3 PF.

To me, it seems the optimal opener, assuming your pre-cast pyro doesn't crit, would be: fireball/scorch (whichever sims determine to be better) until you crit once -> phoenix flames -> RoP -> combustion -> pyro -> FB -> pyro -> FB -> pyro -> flame on + FB -> pyro -> FB -> pyro -> phoenix flames -> pyro -> phoenix flames -> pyro. If you still have combustion time left then repeat scorch -> pyro until it runs out.

I would think this would be the optimal opener too although I would use fireball since it's guaranteed to crit eventually. Casting fireballs/scorch until you finally get two crits in a row doesn't seem optimal since you're relying on the RNG gods.

Also, would it be better in that opener to cast a fireball after the RoP so you can double cast pyro? So it would be something like:

...-> RoP -> fireball (combustion at end of cast) -> pyro -> pyro -> FB -> pyro ->....

[Deleted]

I believe he means to use scorch to fish for HS prior to popping combustion so he can start out with a HS before using his combustion.

Yeah I don't believe the current simcraft code that is used for ranking the specs is doing anything like that at all. You could write it in of course. But someone may have tried it and it was found to not be a benefit.

[Sylvaeres]

Yeah I don't believe the current simcraft code that is used for ranking the specs is doing anything like that at all. You could write it in of course. But someone may have tried it and it was found to not be a benefit.

You've yet to list any factual data whatsoever against it. You keep saying probably, or someone may have. But in essence, you don't actually know. So, until one of the people on here do, it's us all discussing it and brainstorming. But maybes and probablys aren't facts and you can't teach that

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On the topic of using phoenix flame to get your pre-combust hot streak, you would waste more time waiting for the travel time of fireball to know if you can use PF to go from heating up to hot streak,,whereas in that time period you can pop off nearly 4 scorches. What are you going to do, cast and wait till fireball connects to see if you get the proc, then cast the PF for the Hs proc. Seriously? Spam scorch

[Laerez]

Why wouldn't you use it in your opener?

Pyroblast HC pre-pull
Rune of Power - Combustion at the end of the cast

If the above pyroblast crits:
PF > PB [IB] > PB [IB] > PB [FO + IB] > PB [IB] > PB > PF > PB > PF > PB (as haste permits)
(3 PF, 4 IB, 7 PB)

If the above doesn't crit:
PF[IB] > PB[IB] > PB[FO + IB] > PB[IB] > PB > PF > PB > PF > PB > FB/DB (as haste permits)
(3 PF, 4 IB, 6 PB, 1 FB/DB)

Unless my thinking is way off, which it could be.

IB before PF

[Toas]

On the topic of using phoenix flame to get your pre-combust hot streak, you would waste more time waiting for the travel time of fireball to know if you can use PF to go from heating up to hot streak,,whereas in that time period you can pop off nearly 4 scorches. What are you going to do, cast and wait till fireball connects to see if you get the proc, then cast the PF for the Hs proc. Seriously? Spam scorch

If you're more than ~30 yards away from the target, you can use a phoenix flame's right after fireball shoots off and it'll hit the target before the fireball. So no, you don't need to cast and wait until fireball connects, you just chain-cast fireball like you would during any other point in the fight. The maximum time you'd be "wasting" before combustion doing this is just 1 fireball cast time.

Scorch would be arguably even clunkier, since you won't be able to queue up the next scorch while your current one is nearing the end of its cast. You'd have to cast scorch, then wait to see if it crits (even at 0 travel time, there's still human reaction time to seeing the Heating Up or not), then press PF it if does, or another scorch if it doesn't. It adds a lot of delay just due to natural human reaction time. Or, if you did queue it up, you'd have to cancel the cast if it turns out your scorch did crit. In contrast, with fireball, you can just keep queueing them up one after another and fire off a PF after the fireball whenever you see you have a Heating Up (from the previous fireball).

[Sylvaeres]

If you're more than ~30 yards away from the target, you can use a phoenix flame's right after fireball shoots off and it'll hit the target before the fireball. So no, you don't need to cast and wait until fireball connects, you just chain-cast fireball like you would during any other point in the fight. The maximum time you'd be "wasting" before combustion doing this is just 1 fireball cast time.

Scorch would be arguably even clunkier, since you won't be able to queue up the next scorch while your current one is nearing the end of its cast. You'd have to cast scorch, then wait to see if it crits (even at 0 travel time, there's still human reaction time to seeing the Heating Up or not), then press PF it if does, or another scorch if it doesn't. It adds a lot of delay just due to natural human reaction time. Or, if you did queue it up, you'd have to cancel the cast if it turns out your scorch did crit. In contrast, with fireball, you can just keep queueing them up one after another and fire off a PF after the fireball whenever you see you have a Heating Up (from the previous fireball).

When I say scorch, I mean only scorch. I didn't mean use scorch till combustion. There's been no solid information on the subject, hence why I brought the subject up. I always like seeing the differing opinions