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  1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwell View Post
    Challenge is literally a joke, killed it in 2:45s.
    How'd you kill it so fast?

  2. #1442
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasmaxyz View Post
    How'd you kill it so fast?
    He's 917 ilvl if you clicked his sig. Everything in it has had its health nerfed since launch.

  3. #1443
    In EU, the mage tower still needs some days. My best try was 3% at Kruul with 903 ilvl last tower, so I think I will finish it the next time (with the recent nerfs).

  4. #1444
    I can't even get past phase 1 on Kruul and I have no idea what I'm doing so wrong. I just can't seem to get any damage on the boss and I eventually just die to mind rends with the boss around 15m HP. Rage of the Sleeper seems fucked, I can have the adds spawn and they die within 1 GCD with it up and I regain like 5% of my HP, other times I fully heal with no issue. Using Sephuz and Cinidaria.

  5. #1445
    Healing to full usually is when you have one of the infernals being tiny. They take additional damage then.

    Damage done to the inquisitor is usually just from moonfire and thrash, but you pretty much need Luffa or Eko to hit him with the latter, not sure how to do it without either.
    Monk/Main,Druid/Alt, Logs. Meine Gilde rekrutiert. Bei Interesse kontaktiert mich hier, unsere Offiziere in Game oder bewerbt euch direkt auf unserer Website.

  6. #1446
    Quote Originally Posted by Greif9 View Post
    Healing to full usually is when you have one of the infernals being tiny. They take additional damage then.

    Damage done to the inquisitor is usually just from moonfire and thrash, but you pretty much need Luffa or Eko to hit him with the latter, not sure how to do it without either.
    Without legendaries extending your Thrash (and other ability) range, you play it like the other classes: run in, unload damage, run out before your max HP gets so low that you cannot survive until the debuff expires. Even with the extended range of legendaries, I played it like other tanks and spent time unloading on the boss until I got around 5 stacks.

    Honestly, I think the difficulty was fine before the waves of nerfs since it was supposed to be balanced around ToS gear. If you had really good gear or were very skilled, you could get the skin now. If you lacked either/both, you'd just have to wait until your gear or skill improved. I'd rather they focus their energy on fixing the bugs, as I know many still exist (such as NPC's still despawning going into P2).

  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Without legendaries extending your Thrash (and other ability) range, you play it like the other classes: run in, unload damage, run out before your max HP gets so low that you cannot survive until the debuff expires. Even with the extended range of legendaries, I played it like other tanks and spent time unloading on the boss until I got around 5 stacks.

    Honestly, I think the difficulty was fine before the waves of nerfs since it was supposed to be balanced around ToS gear. If you had really good gear or were very skilled, you could get the skin now. If you lacked either/both, you'd just have to wait until your gear or skill improved. I'd rather they focus their energy on fixing the bugs, as I know many still exist (such as NPC's still despawning going into P2).
    I'd rather they make it something tank-like like Proving Grounds or something than a dps check. That's just me.

  8. #1448
    I agree, the DPS-focus of the challenge makes it not that much fun for me. More tanking aspects would've been nice.

  9. #1449
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Without legendaries extending your Thrash (and other ability) range, you play it like the other classes: run in, unload damage, run out before your max HP gets so low that you cannot survive until the debuff expires. Even with the extended range of legendaries, I played it like other tanks and spent time unloading on the boss until I got around 5 stacks.

    Honestly, I think the difficulty was fine before the waves of nerfs since it was supposed to be balanced around ToS gear. If you had really good gear or were very skilled, you could get the skin now. If you lacked either/both, you'd just have to wait until your gear or skill improved. I'd rather they focus their energy on fixing the bugs, as I know many still exist (such as NPC's still despawning going into P2).
    It probably was, I was getting close to a kill last time around, but sadly that was easter weekend and my family for some reason wasn't letting sit around playing wow all that much. I played it with Incarn and Luffa and getting damage on the inquisitor really wasn't a big issue.

    Making it more like PG wouldn't have been too bad I think, but they decided to go this route and honestly dps is important as a tank and there are survival components to the scenario.
    Monk/Main,Druid/Alt, Logs. Meine Gilde rekrutiert. Bei Interesse kontaktiert mich hier, unsere Offiziere in Game oder bewerbt euch direkt auf unserer Website.

  10. #1450
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Without legendaries extending your Thrash (and other ability) range, you play it like the other classes: run in, unload damage, run out before your max HP gets so low that you cannot survive until the debuff expires. Even with the extended range of legendaries, I played it like other tanks and spent time unloading on the boss until I got around 5 stacks.

    Honestly, I think the difficulty was fine before the waves of nerfs since it was supposed to be balanced around ToS gear. If you had really good gear or were very skilled, you could get the skin now. If you lacked either/both, you'd just have to wait until your gear or skill improved. I'd rather they focus their energy on fixing the bugs, as I know many still exist (such as NPC's still despawning going into P2).
    Before the nerf it wasn't about gear it was about luck. Did he annihilate one of the npcs? Yes, here's your free skin.

  11. #1451
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwell View Post
    Challenge is literally a joke, killed it in 2:45s.
    Yes, when you are ilvl 917 the challenge is probably a joke. It's definitely not a joke at lower ilevels...

  12. #1452
    The tank challenge was probably the only one tuned right. If a ton of people could complete the DPS challenges as 880-890 ilvl it's obviously not tuned around ToS gear. I still think it was correct to nerf the tank challenge as you can't hand out free skins to everyone else and punish tanks.

    Overall it has just been a mess, and still is considering it has nothing to do with tanking and you can die at any time from an eye knocking you back despite looking at it.

  13. #1453
    Quote Originally Posted by Rioo View Post
    The tank challenge was probably the only one tuned right. If a ton of people could complete the DPS challenges as 880-890 ilvl it's obviously not tuned around ToS gear. I still think it was correct to nerf the tank challenge as you can't hand out free skins to everyone else and punish tanks.

    Overall it has just been a mess, and still is considering it has nothing to do with tanking and you can die at any time from an eye knocking you back despite looking at it.
    I dont think it's really tuned around ToS gear either though. I mean I still have yet to finish it, but I'm not far off at 907 ilvl and only 44 pts into my weapon so I have no doubt if I were decked out in ToS gear it would be almost faceroll. It's just a poorly designed "test" for tanks. It's not about difficulty, it's just about the way it's designed.

  14. #1454
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    I dont think it's really tuned around ToS gear either though. I mean I still have yet to finish it, but I'm not far off at 907 ilvl and only 44 pts into my weapon so I have no doubt if I were decked out in ToS gear it would be almost faceroll. It's just a poorly designed "test" for tanks. It's not about difficulty, it's just about the way it's designed.
    Blizzard initially said that the challenges were meant to be tuned so that exceptional players could complete them now, but average players would require more gear (gear from ToS) to complete the challenge. Rioo's point is that the tank challenge came the closest to this goal (DPS/Healer were both too easy), but because the DPS/Healer challenge were so much easier it somewhat forced Blizzard to nerf the tank challenge and make it comparable (You can't buff the DPS/Healer challenge after some people had finished it).

    I also really disagree with people that say it is not a tanking challenge. It is an incredibly well designed test for tanks that requires your entire toolkit. The problem is that 95-99% of tanks have no idea what their entire toolkit is or how to properly utilize it. So, when confronted with a challenge that requires more of them than standing passively in front of a mob and occasionally pressing some active mitigation they will struggle.

    Here is an ability by ability breakdown of the most commonly complained about mechanics and comparable mechanics in Legion.

    Death and Decay Ring (Can't Melee Boss): Star Augar Mythic Solo Tanking Phase 2 and 3. In phase 2 you are away from the boss trying to clear the fel fire and in Phase 3 you are tanking an add. In both phases you want to maximize your boss damage while dealing with mechanics that pull you away from the boss. Also comparable to Phase 2 Gul'dan if you're the well-soaker. Trying to maximize damage while not having free movement next to the boss.

    Little Add AoE Interrupt: Most directly comparable to Imps in CoS or the mobs that cast Siphon Essence in Arcway between the Spider Boss and Trilliax look-alike. Both mobs encourage interrupting after the channel has finished to minimize damage taken. In general, using typhoon/incap roar as interrupts is a good practice for tanks.

    Infernal Knockback: Comparable to 3rd mini-boss in CoS (fel reaver with shockwave) and Guardsman (Shield Bash) in the hallway before Maiden in Lower Kara. While these mobs stun when hit by their frontal cone it's the same general mechanic.

    Looking at Eye Beams: 2nd Boss VoTW is a direct comparison. Although other mobs have "look away from me" functionality that is very similar.

    Annihilate Kruul: Managing Tank CDs effectively similar to Scythes on Mythic Gul'dan (if soloing) or even the last phase Soul Sever mechanic requires managing cds or active mitigation.

    Netherstomp (Fel Pool): This is one of the hardest to make a direct comparison to, but could be compared to last boss Kara (Viz'aduum) if you're targeted with the Fel Beam. But in general this is a tank positioning mechanic that is most similar to the new sanguine.

    Dps Check: Sorry to burst your bubble, but tank dps matters. More importantly, dps is not and never was a crucial component of the challenge. The only mechanic that made the challenge a dps check was the scaling annihilates. You could survive up to 5 or 6 annihilates with proper cooldown management and orb usage. No one that was struggling with the challenge was struggling because they hit the 6th annihilate and ran out of cd's and died. Almost everyone was killing it before or around the 4th annihilate (very easy to survive with SI).

    Gear affecting the challenge: That is the entire point of the challenge. Yes, legendaries and higher ilvl made it significantly easier, but that was the entire design philosophy from Blizzards PoV. Going back to the start of this post, this challenge was designed with ToS gear in mind (as stated by Blizzard). The challenge should have been incredibly hard (Paladin Tank level of hard) for all players given their current gear. Then as ToS comes out or people put in more time/practice they would have beaten the challenge.

    If Blizzard standardized this challenge (Think proving grounds) then it could not possibly be balanced. Either it would be too easy (everyone would get the skin) or it would be too hard (few players would get the skin and there would be no gear catch up mechanic to allow other players to earn the skin). Which is why Blizzard made the conscious decision to make gear a factor in the challenge (naturally nerfing the content over time).
    Last edited by Emancptr; 2017-04-21 at 09:40 PM.

  15. #1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Emancptr View Post
    Blizzard initially said that the challenges were meant to be tuned so that exceptional players could complete them now, but average players would require more gear (gear from ToS) to complete the challenge. Rioo's point is that the tank challenge came the closest to this goal (DPS/Healer were both too easy), but because the DPS/Healer challenge were so much easier it somewhat forced Blizzard to nerf the tank challenge and make it comparable (You can't buff the DPS/Healer challenge after some people had finished it).

    I also really disagree with people that say it is not a tanking challenge. It is an incredibly well designed test for tanks that requires your entire toolkit. The problem is that 95-99% of tanks have no idea what their entire toolkit is or how to properly utilize it. So, when confronted with a challenge that requires more of them than standing passively in front of a mob and occasionally pressing some active mitigation they will struggle.

    Dps Check: Sorry to burst your bubble, but tank dps matters. More importantly, dps is not and never was a crucial component of the challenge. The only mechanic that made the challenge a dps check was the scaling annihilates. You could survive up to 5 or 6 annihilates with proper cooldown management and orb usage. No one that was struggling with the challenge was struggling because they hit the 6th annihilate and ran out of cd's and died. Almost everyone was killing it before or around the 4th annihilate (very easy to survive with SI).

    Gear affecting the challenge: That is the entire point of the challenge. Yes, legendaries and higher ilvl made it significantly easier, but that was the entire design philosophy from Blizzards PoV. Going back to the start of this post, this challenge was designed with ToS gear in mind (as stated by Blizzard). The challenge should have been incredibly hard (Paladin Tank level of hard) for all players given their current gear. Then as ToS comes out or people put in more time/practice they would have beaten the challenge.

    If Blizzard standardized this challenge (Think proving grounds) then it could not possibly be balanced. Either it would be too easy (everyone would get the skin) or it would be too hard (few players would get the skin and there would be no gear catch up mechanic to allow other players to earn the skin). Which is why Blizzard made the conscious decision to make gear a factor in the challenge (naturally nerfing the content over time).
    Ok I read through your post and now here's where I'm going to disagree with you, as someone who has tanked for 12 years, on multiple classes and in multiple games (and for sake of comparison, I do have the Proven Defender title as well). Despite what many people would like to think, the tank is not the only person in a group responsible for managing mechanics. There is never going to be a raid or 5 man encounter where your group is intended to just afk through the fight while you handle all interrupts, knockbacks, damage, etc. That's what's going on in this encounter. You listed various examples intended to compare to mechanics on this quest, but none of the examples you gave require you to go it alone. Yes, good tanks help with interrupts and good tanks use whatever utility they have at their disposal to make fights easier. And I absolutely agree that good tanks do what they can to maximize their damage done so long as it does not detrimentally affect their survival.

    This quest encounter does not even remotely simulate a realistic environment for a tank though. They immediately take your one and only dps out of the battle and leave you with a healer who does almost nothing the vast majority of the fight. Then assuming you finish p1, you get the so-called dps back (and I use the word dps loosely because he's doing under 30k dps according to my dmg meter) and now you are essentially dealing with a "burn" phase that requires you to finish off the boss before you run out of survival cd's. Ironically, there have been numerous times over the years where I have been the last one in my raids standing when a boss died, but none of them required me to continually survive hits for the amount of my health pool or higher.

    Now for the record, I am not complaining about the actual difficulty. I don't think it needed to be any harder the way you seem to, but I honestly believe that in full ToS gear, it will be quite easy, which imo, defeats the purpose of a challenge at all. (Thus why I have put in 95+ attempts at my current gear level) So you either go in there with the magic gear number now and feel like you accomplished a challenge, or you wait and faceroll it at the intended gear level. Yes, the "challenge" should have been standardized somehow because that's the only way to test skill rather than gear, which is really the only thing this encounter is testing. I can't say how it should have been standardized, because tbh I wasn't a fan of the proving grounds either (despite going in and grinding till I got that achievement) and gear scaling affects different classes differently. But as it stands, no, I do not feel this encounter is a good test of tank skill.

    Perhaps a better test would have been one that matched you with a similarly geared dps and healer and tested all of your abilities together. Might have been less buggy that way as well. Nothing like getting Kruul halfway down and having his health reset to 100%...
    Last edited by Bearshield; 2017-04-21 at 10:53 PM.

  16. #1456
    Quote Originally Posted by Ausr View Post
    I'd rather they make it something tank-like like Proving Grounds or something than a dps check. That's just me.
    To address your response and several others, I do wish there was more active tanking involved to protect your NPC's (some DPS check is fine, because tank DPS still does matter whether people want it to or not). There was some active tanking to a degree, because you did have to keep adds off Velen and make sure the arcane adds didn't blow up your NPC's. My point was the difficulty of the tanking scenario, regardless of what people may or may not think of it in terms of what a tank should be doing, was perfectly fine for the stated difficulty by Blizz. Again, I agree that the scenario didn't fully embrace the role of a tank under normal circumstances, but I believe the difficulty was fine for what the scenario actually was (at least for Guardians, other tanks can have their own opinions).

    If I recall, I managed to clear it with 904 ilvl equipped and 43 points in my weapon at the time... but it took me roughly 150 attempts to get it right since I didn't exploit the stun/disorient to remove the aura in P1 (c'mon, it was obviously an exploit) and the scenario had several bugs plaguing it. If anything, the real RNG aspect of the encounter was getting a clean run without a bug messing things up. My frustration now is that instead of cleaning up all the bugs, Blizz has nerfed the encounter into the ground while leaving problematic bugs in the encounter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    This quest encounter does not even remotely simulate a realistic environment for a tank though. They immediately take your one and only dps out of the battle and leave you with a healer who does almost nothing the vast majority of the fight. Then assuming you finish p1, you get the so-called dps back (and I use the word dps loosely because he's doing under 30k dps according to my dmg meter) and now you are essentially dealing with a "burn" phase that requires you to finish off the boss before you run out of survival cd's. Ironically, there have been numerous times over the years where I have been the last one in my raids standing when a boss died, but none of them required me to continually survive hits for the amount of my health pool or higher.
    If you pug enough mythic+, this scenario actually happens. Literally happened to me yesterday in a CoEN +12 pug group on the last boss. Maybe this tanking scenario does simulate worst-case scenarios in the world of pugging.

  17. #1457
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    I dont think it's really tuned around ToS gear either though. I mean I still have yet to finish it, but I'm not far off at 907 ilvl and only 44 pts into my weapon so I have no doubt if I were decked out in ToS gear it would be almost faceroll. It's just a poorly designed "test" for tanks. It's not about difficulty, it's just about the way it's designed.
    You have to remember it's still WoW, a not so challenging game filled with terrible players, even on a mythic level. If something is tuned for 920 ilvl it's tuned for a mouth breathing toddler with 920 ilvl, not good players with 3 thrash relics and the right legendaries.

  18. #1458
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    To address your response and several others, I do wish there was more active tanking involved to protect your NPC's (some DPS check is fine, because tank DPS still does matter whether people want it to or not). There was some active tanking to a degree, because you did have to keep adds off Velen and make sure the arcane adds didn't blow up your NPC's. My point was the difficulty of the tanking scenario, regardless of what people may or may not think of it in terms of what a tank should be doing, was perfectly fine for the stated difficulty by Blizz. Again, I agree that the scenario didn't fully embrace the role of a tank under normal circumstances, but I believe the difficulty was fine for what the scenario actually was (at least for Guardians, other tanks can have their own opinions).

    If I recall, I managed to clear it with 904 ilvl equipped and 43 points in my weapon at the time... but it took me roughly 150 attempts to get it right since I didn't exploit the stun/disorient to remove the aura in P1 (c'mon, it was obviously an exploit) and the scenario had several bugs plaguing it. If anything, the real RNG aspect of the encounter was getting a clean run without a bug messing things up. My frustration now is that instead of cleaning up all the bugs, Blizz has nerfed the encounter into the ground while leaving problematic bugs in the encounter.



    If you pug enough mythic+, this scenario actually happens. Literally happened to me yesterday in a CoEN +12 pug group on the last boss. Maybe this tanking scenario does simulate worst-case scenarios in the world of pugging.
    You doing it at that ilvl just means you got lucky with annihilate. The scenario wasn't some sort of skill mechanic like you're trying to make it out to be. It was literally a beat your face into this enough and you'll get lucky sooner or later (i.e. Your 150 pulls). Either way it needed to be nerfed, it was unfair healers/most dps classes could just walk in and get it for free.

  19. #1459
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwell View Post
    Before the nerf it wasn't about gear it was about luck. Did he annihilate one of the npcs? Yes, here's your free skin.
    Did he annihilate twice on the npc? Yes, try the challenge again.

  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulwell View Post
    You doing it at that ilvl just means you got lucky with annihilate. The scenario wasn't some sort of skill mechanic like you're trying to make it out to be. It was literally a beat your face into this enough and you'll get lucky sooner or later (i.e. Your 150 pulls). Either way it needed to be nerfed, it was unfair healers/most dps classes could just walk in and get it for free.
    I cleared it today with 907ilvl on my first try (I had about 70 tries, last time it was up)
    Since the nerfs it's really easy (I do have luffas and elize, tbf).

    P2 is a joke after the nerfs, BL, Incarn and just kill him, no need to worry about anything.

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