Best racial for tanking on Alliance = ?

[Travex]

What do you all think?

[OrcinusDrake]

Depends on context. IMHO:
Dungeons - Every man for himself
Ultra hard core raiding - Stoneform
Casual warriors (post inevitable ignore pain nerf) - Gift of the naaru
BDK - dark flight
Parse whores - You'd need to sim it but epicurean looks pretty strong

[Frolk]

Depends on context. IMHO:
Dungeons - Every man for himself
Ultra hard core raiding - Stoneform
Casual warriors (post inevitable ignore pain nerf) - Gift of the naaru
BDK - dark flight
Parse whores - You'd need to sim it but epicurean looks pretty strong

You forgot nelf, for when ur offtank is slow with taunt so u just shadowmeld

[OrcinusDrake]

You mean the other day when I died on socrethar trash I could've survived? Dammit, didn't think about that.

[Travex]

Night Elf's 2% dodge/1% haste doesn't outshine the other races?
How good/poor is Humans' [The Human Spirit]?

[OrcinusDrake]

2% dodge is useless, on large trash pulls its almost a 2% damage reduction but otherwise its not going to do anything. 1% haste is okay, but it's only 1%. No-one ever wiped due to missing 1% haste.
Human spirit... hmm... Someone who knows more of the maths and actually has access to some real data would know more, but it seems: At lower ilvl epicurean will be better, at higher ilvls human spirit would give more stats at the cost of not being able to focus those stats towards what you need. But with every man for himself being far better than quaking palm it's probably a better idea just to run human spirit.

Ultimately though, the only important racial is fashion, and that's something you'll have to work out yourself.

[Riistov]

Depends on context. IMHO:
Dungeons - Every man for himself
Ultra hard core raiding - Stoneform
Casual warriors (post inevitable ignore pain nerf) - Gift of the naaru
BDK - dark flight
Parse whores - You'd need to sim it but epicurean looks pretty strong

Honestly, Heroic Presence for Draenei is pretty damn nice too. Combine that with gift, and I feel like thats a pretty strong set of racials.

[Marrilaife]

2% dodge is useless, on large trash pulls its almost a 2% damage reduction but otherwise its not going to do anything. 1% haste is okay, but it's only 1%. No-one ever wiped due to missing 1% haste.

Pretty much this, if you want haste, go gnome, you also get that 5% extra resources (rage, runic power, monk energy). Well unless druid / DH, then you can go nelf.

However if worgen sprint is usable in bear form (no idea, my druid is nelf) that would be better cuz nowadays bears can't even pick the charge talent without sacrificing the enhanced stampeding roar which seems like a big deal to me. Without the feral charge bear mobility is poo.

Personally a fan of draenei heal, it can crit, scales with max hp (things like last stand) and healing increases (vamp blood). But obviously can't deny for more immobile tank classes worgens have an edge that can't be simply simmed. So DK and maybe druid (if above mentioned conditions apply).

[LordAmbrosia]

How is 2% dodge "not going to do anything"? Do you have math on this?

[Deleted]

Doesn't matter, you're a tank. The only time it matters is when you're horde and can go blood elf for the AoE silence cos that shit was sick on Xhul progress. Go whatever you want lmfao. (Seriously it really means fuck all)

[Marrilaife]

How is 2% dodge "not going to do anything"? Do you have math on this?

It will do "something" but that something is nothing to drool over, any important ability in pve is non-dodgeable.

I don't get where those people come from, second thread where people claim dodge is amazing while tanks shunned dodge since forever with a small exception in cata where it was a means to an end namely getting block capped by a warrior / pala. Any mechanic related to dodge was "meh" like pre-hfc druid savage defense, Blizz adds damage reduction to savage defense, only then people start liking it. They made monk into a dodge tank, barely anyone likes it.

A "get out of jail card" is usually more important, it just depends what you find the biggest issue out of those that racials can remedy, dwarves can remove dots, gnomes snares, humans stuns, worgens counter lack of mobility, draenei can pop a heal combined with for example last stand or similar cds. Night elves can drop aggro which is useful for dps or healers, less for tanks, and a lot useful to classes that synergize with stealth (rogue, feral).

Pandas... well pray you never die and get crez because then you wake up with no racial.

[LordAmbrosia]

It will do "something" but that something is nothing to drool over, any important ability in pve is non-dodgeable.

Maybe I'm thinking too much of the past, but many bosses historically had very dangerous auto attacks. Chains of autos that landed would mean death on something like Algalon, and 2% dodge helped avoid that, it got better with how much avoidance you already had as well.

Stoneform is a great ability as is Gift of the Naaru, but clearing stuns/snares is something that doesn't really ever happen in raiding. Whereas auto attacks are a constant presence. Only tank I can think of that even needs extra mobility is DK.

[Marrilaife]

Maybe I'm thinking too much of the past, but many bosses historically had very dangerous auto attacks. Chains of autos that landed would mean death on something like Algalon, and 2% dodge helped avoid that, it got better with how much avoidance you already had as well.

Stoneform is a great ability as is Gift of the Naaru, but clearing stuns/snares is something that doesn't really ever happen in raiding. Whereas auto attacks are a constant presence. Only tank I can think of that even needs extra mobility is DK.

That's why the second post said human for dungeons, not raids. Mythic+ is progression now as well and depends how many annoying stuns exist there. If I would pick Gnome it would be for the extra resource, the snare clear is a side bonus.

For worgen as I said, if darkflight is usable in bear form I can see it being useful because bears don't have that great mobility except stampeding roar. All their mobility is in talents with hard choices to make.

The chance of 2% dodge saving you from a killing blow melee is extremely unreliable, steep diminishing returns in avoidance stats and removing most ways of stacking it (what do we even have? crit to parry conversion and that's it?) for nearly all tanks except monk (their mastery is some form of dodge, plus several of their artifact traits) means it's hard to get it to noticeable levels for non-monks.

Also legion intent was tanks having big health pools while healers heal for less, active mitigation and tank cooldowns have less uptime, that just can't work if on top of it bosses were killing tanks in 2 melee hits.

Take even hfc as an example, on how many bosses their melee was their biggest problem? Maybe on tyrant. But that was in the world where active mitigation, tank cds and external cds could be chained on the active tank with nearly 100% uptime during p3. Most nasty-tank-killer crap was something you couldn't dodge, because it was magic, or a debuff.

And even back in wotlk you refer, tanks weren't stacking dodge. They were stacking stamina.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

2% dodge is useless, on large trash pulls its almost a 2% damage reduction but otherwise its not going to do anything. 1% haste is okay, but it's only 1%. No-one ever wiped due to missing 1% haste.

By this logic, there's no point upgrading gear, because one upgrade isn't going to do anything...

- - - Updated - - -

Night Elves:

Nature Resistance: Reduces Nature damage taken by 1%.
Wisp Spirit: Transform into a wisp upon death, increasing speed by 75%.
Quickness: Increases your chance to dodge melee and ranged attacks by 2%, and your movement speed by 2%.
Shadowmeld: Activate to slip into the shadows, reducing the chance for enemies to detect your presence. Lasts until cancelled or upon moving. Any threat is restored versus enemies still in combat upon cancellation of this effect.
Touch of Elune: Increases your Haste by 1% during the night.Increases your Critical Strike by 1% during the day.

Draenei:

Gift of the Naaru: Heals the target for 20% of the caster's total health over 5 sec.
Heroic Presence: Increases your Strength, Agility, and Intellect by 65 (scales with level).
Shadow Resistance: Reduces Shadow damage taken by 1%.

Dwarf:

Frost Resistance: Reduces Frost damage taken by 1%.
Might of the Mountain: Critical strike bonus damage and healing increased by 2%.
Stoneform: Removes all poison, disease, curse, magic, and bleed effects and reduces all physical damage taken by 10% for 8 sec.

Worgen:

Aberration: Reduces Shadow and Nature damage taken by 1%.
Darkflight: Activates your true form, increasing current movement speed by an additional 40% for 10 sec.
Viciousness: Increases critical strike chance by 1%.

Human:

Every Man for Himself: Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character. This effect shares a cooldown with other similar effects.
The Human Spirit: Versatility increased by 100 (scales with level).

Gnome:

Arcane Resistance: Reduces Arcane damage taken by 1%.
Escape Artist: Escape the effects of any immobilization or movement speed reduction effect.
Expansive Mind: Maximum resource increased by 5%.
Nimble Fingers: Haste increased by 1%.

Pandaren:

Bouncy: You take half falling damage.
Epicurean: Your love of food allows you to receive 100% more of the stats from Well Fed effects.
Quaking Palm: Strikes the target with lightning speed, incapacitating them for 4 sec, and turns off your attack.


I tank on Night Elf and Draenei, but looking at the above they are all pretty close. It clearly varies from fight to fight, and the difference won't make or break you either way.

[Marrilaife]

The point is we aren't comparing Night Elves to some mythical racial-less creatures in which aspect having a racial is better than having none.

Obviously you can play any race you like no racial is an "I win" button, some stuff is deliberately made non-cheesable like some cc not being breakable by human racial in pve if those cc are part of an important raid boss mechanic (in dungeons it usually worked though). Since we're talking Alliance there's also no cheese "stack Blood Elves to perma interrupt mobs".

However having an on-demand button that does what it says on the tin sounds way more appealing than a complete rng chance that is low already and also doesn't work on important stuff. That's why worgen, dwarf or draenei seem more appealing, you know what you're getting and you can use it when you need to and not leave it in the hands of RNGods.

Night Elf has the advantage of being completely passive so for players who forget to click that racial button, or tend to waste it at wrong moments something being passive is a plus. However these players probably are doing casual content where racials don't matter at all.

Well, in general racials matter less than people think they do. But if we theoretically speak what would be of better use, a reliable cd looks better than random chance small stat increase.

- - - Updated - - -

Human:

Every Man for Himself: Removes all movement impairing effects and all effects which cause loss of control of your character. This effect shares a cooldown with other similar effects.
The Human Spirit: Versatility increased by 100 (scales with level).

Humans were changed, EMFH only breaks stuns and Human Spirit increases your secondary stat ratings by 2% or something (not the stats itself).

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

The point is we aren't comparing Night Elves to some mythical racial-less creatures in which aspect having a racial is better than having none.

Obviously you can play any race you like no racial is an "I win" button, some stuff is deliberately made non-cheesable like some cc not being breakable by human racial in pve if those cc are part of an important raid boss mechanic (in dungeons it usually worked though). Since we're talking Alliance there's also no cheese "stack Blood Elves to perma interrupt mobs".

However having an on-demand button that does what it says on the tin sounds way more appealing than a complete rng chance that is low already and also doesn't work on important stuff. That's why worgen, dwarf or draenei seem more appealing, you know what you're getting and you can use it when you need to and not leave it in the hands of RNGods.

Night Elf has the advantage of being completely passive so for players who forget to click that racial button, or tend to waste it at wrong moments something being passive is a plus. However these players probably are doing casual content where racials don't matter at all.

Well, in general racials matter less than people think they do. But if we theoretically speak what would be of better use, a reliable cd looks better than random chance small stat increase.

- - - Updated - - -

Humans were changed, EMFH only breaks stuns and Human Spirit increases your secondary stat ratings by 2% or something (not the stats itself).

Oh? I took those from Wowhead; they must not have updated.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I macro my Draenei self-heal so I won't forget to use it. I wasn't saying the Nelf dodge and haste were OP, only that they were similar to the improvement you'd see from one significant gear upgrade, so nothing to sneer at either. Racials aren't meant to be OP, just a wee bit of flavor and bonus. Night Elves get a touch of haste or crit, a wee movement buff, and a slightly better chance to dodge. Most races get some sort of 1% magic resistance; which flavor varies by race.

Seriously, how many boss fights are won or lost by the tank's racial? Probably some - that special attack dodged by the Nelf will probably go unnoticed - but it isn't something we end up talking about at the time.

[Marrilaife]

Seriously, how many boss fights are won or lost by the tank's racial?

That's why it's a purely academic discussion, the importance of racials is severely overestimated in the community, and it's way harder to objectively measure a value of a racial for a tank than for a dps where you can sim it, but sim results don't equal real player results in game (players don't play perfectly, fights are nearly never following the sim's assumption about encounter and so on).

Fights aren't won by racial, they're won by players learning them better and doing less mistakes. I don't know the exact purpose OP had behind making this thread, but since it exists, we can debate. As it seems, opinions differ.

Blizzard did several passes on racials during the years (including the recent rework of Human racials), we went a long way from having +5 weapon skill in mace.

[LordAmbrosia]

The chance of 2% dodge saving you from a killing blow melee is extremely unreliable.

Focusing on just the last attack is the wrong way to go about it. How about the collective chance of dodging any of the last 3 attacks that were all part of what brought you to death? Now the 2% is looking a lot better. Any one of those dodges saves you.

And even back in wotlk you refer, tanks weren't stacking dodge. They were stacking stamina.

Yeah of course. I never said they were stacking it. Tank gear just had it naturally, you got quite a bit no matter what.

[Deleted]

Human racial is useless for PVE, rarely do bosses or other mobs stun. Dwarf is the best choice for tanks.

[Alopex]

Gnome for the hidden racial of being able to LoS your healers on any small incline/decline in the floor