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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Ret aura, extra healing for the group (its actually decent}, Blessing of Sac, Aegis of Light, etc.

    @TEHPALLYTANK As I said in the other thread, If they tune us to be on par with other melee there will be no reason not to bring a ret. Bop is still useful no matter what, Might is decent utility and Kings scales with ap so it will be better later on (most likely during EN}. Many other melee have shittier utility than we do, and many dont even have utility. This is only if we are tuned to be on par with other melee.

    I stopped reading when you said Ret Aura, if you're taking Ret Aura you're a bumbling idiot with no idea what you're doing, Aegis also shares a tier with the extra healing with the group, which is better slotted with a holy paladin regardless

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Saintlel View Post
    I stopped reading when you said Ret Aura, if you're taking Ret Aura you're a bumbling idiot with no idea what you're doing, Aegis also shares a tier with the extra healing with the group, which is better slotted with a holy paladin regardless
    His question was what utility does Prot offer that ret doesn't. I'm not saying any of it is good, I'm just telling him what Prot has access to. Never asked what's good and what isn't.

    Aegis overall is good for fights with heavy damage spikes for obvious reasons. If someone is being targeted by something they can run behind the Prot for 20% damage taken decrease. It's situational but beneficial either way.

    Prot has BoSac which ret doesn't. Self explanatory as to why that's good/decent.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    At the moment I have to say terrible.
    And the rotation has a few things I really dislike.

    But tuning isn't finished yet; in a week they will have tons of data and everyone here expects several changes.
    Hell, I even expect multiple buffs before Legion drops.


    Their new hotfix technology.
    It's how they hotfixed us to make Divine Steed baseline.


    I was quite impressed with that trait.
    And then it became 10%...

    Does it at LEAST proc Divine Purpose? Because that would make it bearable.
    100% Echo of the Highlord would have been utterly retarded with current numbers. Even at 10% it's still the second best trait on the entire weapon by a huge margin. A 10% increase to both your spenders is way fucking better than most traits point per point. Also, lawl DP.

    So, I have a serious question that I'd like answered, and anyone is free to chime in. In your opinion, how much of a dps buff does ret need to be viable in a world first, (top 3) guild? How much of a dps buff does ret need to be the absolute strongest dps spec in the game? Please answer for single target, 3 target cleave and mass AoE, (6+ targets).

    If you can't answer those questions with pretty close to exact numbers, then I have news for you. You're bitching because you enjoy it, not because you think the spec needs dps buffs. I swear critical thinking is dead. I'm gonna go drink my liver away and pass out in the middle of the day now.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripitgood View Post
    I'd really like a factual answer to this question.

    Not something shrouded in obscure things, or biased opinions from previous mistakes.
    I'm not saying those things don't matter.

    I'm saying what was the experience in beta? I REALLY wanna play Prot, But if Ret is shit, I'd rather play a Blood DK then Unholy. Soooo, HELP? Is it fun? Is the DPS at least respectable to PvE content (They're not so bad a smart RL would bench them)?
    on beta ret was lack-luster in play style, it seems like its missing something to its rotation, the damage was weak. its not the worst, but not the best. the playstyle tho, from years past, is very boring and ive played paladin since bc. very boring spec, but is middle of the road on damage. thats my beta experience, and i leveled to 110 and did dungeons as well on heroic.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by marinos View Post
    I never said that ret will be buffed or nerfed, all I said is that tuning hasnt finished so we will see changes. They may as well leave ret as it is but if they nerf/buff others that affects ret too. Again, I didnt say that ret will receive any buffs or nerfs, only that with tuning still in place changes are bound to happen on way or the other.
    So basically you're making a blanket statement that global tuning will happen...tuning that might have no real impact on the topic at hand.

    Thanks for your non-contribution in that case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varaben View Post
    Fair enough. Ret certainly isn't a strong contender for AoE or cleave, and I don't think there's anything particularly great about their burst or sustained single target. They still have things like LOH and bubble which are useful.
    Yeah if you're playing solo...in a raid that really doesn't matter when the next guy does 5-10% more damage than you by default. That's the problem with Blizzards "hybrid" design, we're getting punished for some imaginary benefit we have from being a class that can have more than a dps spec. If they want hybrids to work like that they need to redesign the game so there is four roles to fill instead of three where hybrids fill the new role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Their new hotfix technology.
    It's how they hotfixed us to make Divine Steed baseline.
    I'm skeptical as they could have patched numbers changes in the past every week if they so wanted yet this tuning that gets boasted prior to every expansion never happens.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripitgood View Post
    I'd really like a factual answer to this question.

    Not something shrouded in obscure things, or biased opinions from previous mistakes.
    I'm not saying those things don't matter.

    I'm saying what was the experience in beta? I REALLY wanna play Prot, But if Ret is shit, I'd rather play a Blood DK then Unholy. Soooo, HELP? Is it fun? Is the DPS at least respectable to PvE content (They're not so bad a smart RL would bench them)?
    Blood + UH is much better comp than Prot + Ret imo.


    I am a menace to my own destiny.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    That's why I made the last post, it looks like we get a lot of damage added from our Artifact; something we aren't wearing now.
    And with the 'long route' to A2A we pick them all up which, according to the front page, we will have in the second week.
    Beta numbers as far as I seen still have us towards the bottom though. Only did heroics at most on beta but from my experience we're still undertuned even with AtA (that I had, going the long route).

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Feederino Senpai View Post
    Do you play in a top 100 raiding guild, that is chasing kills and progression? No? Play what ever you want. If you are, you will most likely level up 5-6 alts during the first week, to fill up 6 different raid groups a funel all gear to the mains, so you got two weeks to actually figure out what you want to play.

    On the other hand, if you were that serious, you would most likely have done a ton of research and made up your mind ages ago.

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    WoW have been online for many years, and they are still tuning it. top kek.



    Just curious, what are being considered the "optimal classes" right now for mythic raiding?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by arrav View Post
    Just curious, what are being considered the "optimal classes" right now for mythic raiding?
    Rogue, Mage, Momentum DH

    I would so more but I've only seen good sims(and sims are wildly inaccurate anyway) from those classes, and seen them personally in Beta
    Last edited by Saintlel; 2016-08-27 at 04:28 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Taeldorian View Post
    Could easily be a strong contender for cleave and burst/sustained ST, just need numbers to be tweaked.
    As another poster pointed out, Ret has things like Bubble and LOH which are actually a detriment to its DPS. Blizz sees these as strong utility, which I guess they are in some cases, but that's a good reason to keep them from being too strong DPS. We've heard all along that the "hybrid tax" is gone, but in a lot of cases, it seems like it's still there.

    What's bothersome is that on the one hand, Blizz will say "It's ok if you're not great at everything," but also they give classes toolkits that aren't great at anything. Case in point. Their mentality is fine, as long as there aren't too many cleave fights which would push certain specs to the bottom, but it also requires specs be great at SOMETHING.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by arrav View Post
    Just curious, what are being considered the "optimal classes" right now for mythic raiding?
    Not a top raider, just casual, and clearing Mythic before next content comes out and never in a rush. So me and my guild mates just play what we want, and find fun. So I can't really tell. But there are sims out there that would tell you what dps' pull highest numbers etc. Then the guild have to balance it out and get what they feel they need for a rooster.

    All I said was that if he was a top raider, which in my opinion are the only ones that should be bothered by how your class is doing, he would have done the research. And as I said, if he isn't, he should honestly play what he finds fun to play. So it is easier to stick to one spec/class the whole expansions. That's what I'm doing at least
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  12. #52
    Deleted
    revamp has caused ret sciatica, the grandpa version. emancipate, Clemency, LAotL etc. removed 4 Seal of Light (20%Movement Speed duration dependant on HoPo spent) and Divine Steed (3s 100% movement increase, 45s cd). ret playstyle has changed from agile to fatroll and forces to rethink outdated tactical patterns (esp. pvp), but i dont see any uptime issues in pve.

    also major critiques have been followed, esp. pvp (tunnelz, sustained damage). gameplay is more sustained, "calming", less procs, easier rota via ability pruning (no exo, HoW etc; ES change is just embarrasing) in general ret damage is more reliable and not limited to burst anymore.

    progress ret def has a slot thx to self-healing capacity of JV, also Holy Wrath is the mightiest nuke in Azeroth in PvP.

    ret is like an ex-speed-addict, soberness hurts, but strawberry highways dont cook forever :D

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Avenging Wrath View Post
    gameplay is more sustained, "calming", less procs, easier rota via ability pruning (no exo, HoW etc; ES change is just embarrasing) in general ret damage is more reliable and not limited to burst anymore.
    But that is the problem, it's reliably and sustained low. Because it has no niche anymore like burst for example it's damage can't excel in certain aspects and as such it's just kinda flat. Which should make it easy to balance but so far we're still being hybrid taxed by the looks of it.

    A build that shines on cleave for example can carry their weight during cleave periods/fights even if their DPS is low on avg. Same goes for AOE or burst capabilities. Ret just lacks the capability to shine anywhere which means that it would have to be in the top avg DPS to carry it's weight.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Redblade View Post
    But that is the problem, it's reliably and sustained low. Because it has no niche anymore like burst for example it's damage can't excel in certain aspects and as such it's just kinda flat. Which should make it easy to balance but so far we're still being hybrid taxed by the looks of it.

    A build that shines on cleave for example can carry their weight during cleave periods/fights even if their DPS is low on avg. Same goes for AOE or burst capabilities. Ret just lacks the capability to shine anywhere which means that it would have to be in the top avg DPS to carry it's weight.
    Ret has some of the most idiotic burst I've ever seen in pve, the fuck you smoking? Sure, there's ramp up, it's not on demand burst, but if you're ramped up by the time you need your burst, well, 1.6 million TVs like every 2 seconds. Crusade really props up the spec.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Ret has some of the most idiotic burst I've ever seen in pve, the fuck you smoking? Sure, there's ramp up, it's not on demand burst, but if you're ramped up by the time you need your burst, well, 1.6 million TVs like every 2 seconds. Crusade really props up the spec.
    Burst for PvE is more than one hit...it means doing a substantially increased DPS in a shorter window like 20-30 seconds on demand. Assassin's Exsanguinate is a good example of a burst ability.
    Last edited by Redblade; 2016-08-27 at 04:37 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Redblade View Post
    Burst for PvE is more than one hit...it means doing a substantially increased DPS in a shorter window like 20-30 seconds on demand. Assassin's Exsanguinate is a good example of a burst ability.
    Burst in pve is being able to do a high amount of damage in an extremely small window, like under 10 seconds. Think imps on Xhul and Mannoroth or Dominator on Socrethar. Some burst CDs come up more frequently than others, Crusade being a 2 min CD vs Exsang being 45 seconds, but that doesn't mean Crusade is bad for burst, especially if you're coordinating with your raid group, who uses what CD when for when burst damage really matters.

    I'm also starting to learn that ret actually has pretty good spread AoE. Divine Tempest goes out way further than the graphic would indicate, like 30 yards. So you can stand in the middle of a group of mobs, hit DS, and do full damage to another group of mobs way the fuck in the middle of nowhere. So far it's pretty sweet in dungeons where you have hunter type enemies that don't like to group up, or those little bastards that jump away in Nelth's lair. There's some pretty inventive things you can do with it. For example, I used it to cleave down a lot of the tentacle adds on that Faceless boss in VH without ever leaving melee. We're not MM hunters with that sidewinder bullshit, but I think it's kind of underrated.

  17. #57
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Redblade View Post
    Burst for PvE is more than one hit...it means doing a substantially increased DPS in a shorter window like 20-30 seconds on demand. Assassin's Exsanguinate is a good example of a burst ability.
    And we have on-demand burst with wings/crusade which is a 27,5? window. Rogue burst has to be setup with garrote/hemo/rupture and then Exsang also.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    Burst in pve is being able to do a high amount of damage in an extremely small window, like under 10 seconds. Think imps on Xhul and Mannoroth or Dominator on Socrethar. Some burst CDs come up more frequently than others, Crusade being a 2 min CD vs Exsang being 45 seconds, but that doesn't mean Crusade is bad for burst, especially if you're coordinating with your raid group, who uses what CD when for when burst damage really matters.
    The main difference is that a 45 sec CD generally means little to no DPS loss while the 2 min CD generally means a big DPS loss. And for a spec that's already struggling with mediocre DPS this is a lose lose situation. Any RL with sense would simply bring another rogue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurcus View Post
    I'm also starting to learn that ret actually has pretty good spread AoE. Divine Tempest goes out way further than the graphic would indicate, like 30 yards.
    School Damage (Holy)
    Value: 1
    Radius: 8 yards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haxx0rcist View Post
    And we have on-demand burst with wings/crusade which is a 27,5? window. Rogue burst has to be setup with garrote/hemo/rupture and then Exsang also.
    No, every class has a 2 min CD of some sort so it's not really a on-demand burst that would give us an advantage in such situations.

  19. #59
    Epic! marinos's Avatar
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    He's talking about Divine Tempest,Ashbringer trait and its 20y not 30.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by marinos View Post
    He's talking about Divine Tempest,Ashbringer trait and its 20y not 30.
    I swear it hits shit out further than 20 yards. Like, the point of origin shoots out 20 yards, but the hitbox is fucking huge so it gets at least an extra 5 yards off that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redblade View Post
    The main difference is that a 45 sec CD generally means little to no DPS loss while the 2 min CD generally means a big DPS loss. And for a spec that's already struggling with mediocre DPS this is a lose lose situation. Any RL with sense would simply bring another rogue.



    School Damage (Holy)
    Value: 1
    Radius: 8 yards

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    No, every class has a 2 min CD of some sort so it's not really a on-demand burst that would give us an advantage in such situations.
    First off, as marinos pointed out, I was talking about Divine Tempest, not Divine Storm. Our third major trait.

    Secondly, there's a lot of differences between Exsang and Crusade. Regardless, using a 2 min CD at a particular time doesn't have to be a huge loss in dps. Depends on how you setup your CD rotation, (assuming we're still talking about priority add waves) and what your expected fight length is. Now that we're not basing everything on the goddamn legendary ring, we're back to the good ole days where delaying a CD wasn't a dps loss at all so long as you didn't lose a full use of it in the process Like, on a 5 minute fight you could afford a total delay of Crusade of 30 seconds without losing any dps. In fact you might gain dps if you use that time to line the second and/or third Crusade up with trinket procs, or if you pool for a huge add wave so you can get some big dick divine storms.

    Third, I'm 99% sure every 2 minute CD in the game sucks balls compared to Crusade. Like, have you actually played with that fucker once you get some gear at 110?

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