Simulationcraft results for Legion Expansion (7.0)

[Nixl]

The sims seem to be still using deadly grace as the potion of choice. Is there a reason for that or is it just an oversight? (Most people say Old war after the buffs/fixes).

[Deleted]

When can we expect the new spreadsheet Aethys?

As Sub, I believe that the buff to Shuriken Storm will make the Vigor Talent more valuable than DS versus 4-5+ targets, so you can fit more SStorm in the Shadow Dance window and use Nightblade as a finisher when SD ends. Im just brainstorming but looking forward to check your results.

[Datenshi]

Idk why not many rogues like outlaw. No daggers? Don't tell me it's RtB... Seriously that would be lame.
Also I have a question for any rogue willing to answer. Why do a lot of rogues claim they always are top of charts, especially Assassination rogues for this tier??

i personally do not like outlaw for several reasons:
i hate rtB (yes yes i know lame:P)
really don't like the theme (pirates woohoo*sarcasm*)
in general the abilities don't feel right for me :P (even though i was a combat fan through wotlk and cata)
also the artifacts are some random unknown swords xD (though i guess sub has a similar problem there)
*edit*
also have you seen the rogue forums lately.. it's completely overrun by outlaw fanboys (not trying to insult anyone) :P
i think the most vocal portion against outlaw are the (some of the) sob rogues
*end edit*

so in general it's just a presonal thing i guess:P
don't really like the spec the way it is right now.

als in regards to your second question:
i think a lot of rogues haven't seen/met good fire mages or something (i am included in this group to be honest). atleast not in this expansion.
i also have been top or near top of the dps since i dinged 110.
also i think it's because rogues have (almost) always done really good and been on or near the top of the damage ever since i started playing in wrath.

*on topic*
i think it's quite interesting that assassination is simming so ridiculously low even though i usually am way higher than the simmed amount....

[Deleted]

There's the 840 (T19P) sim available and an 865 (T19H) sim available, you expecting Aethys to make a new gear list for every ilvl in between? Just sim your own gear and use the weapon and traits from the imported profile that mostly resemble your expected progression (since I'm assuming you won't have AP and relics in the new spec).

Well I wasn't expecting that actually...all I want to know really is at heroic level, is sub better...like I asked previous to that post. Probably should've worded it better

- - - Updated - - -

A lot of Assassination are using exploit (Exsg + Ago), altough Exsanguinate is pretty close to Outlaw atm.
The thing you see on WCL is the same as you can see on Simulationcraft being in the right context.


Anyway, it will change Wednesday, Subtlety is back on the throne (and with AoE in addition this time) if nothing change.

And sub is better at aoe now? Damn

[Chemii]

With regard to sims, specifically scaling & plots for assassination, my gear is now telling me that everything is ~= to each other. Does this mean that I want to replace my gear with like for like pieces, just higher item level?

Also I was wondering if there is anyway to check if some of the crit traits in my artifact devalue crit at all. At the moment I have about 47% crit chance without mutilate/rupture crit traits but will probably unlock the 1st point of rupture crit tonight, as I'm sat about 35K AP.

I'm getting better at interpreting the results but I just wondered if I can see a value that those stats will begin to fall off.

Thanks

P.S thanks for your efforts, I rely quite a lot on simcraft, so all your work is appreciated.

[Aethys256]

Spreadsheet updated, stats scaling not included since I won't do them anymore but instead Optimal Stats Distribution. Still generating the plots for it.

[neozz1]

Spreadsheet updated, stats scaling not included since I won't do them anymore but instead Optimal Stats Distribution. Still generating the plots for it.

Do you think that in practice Sub will still be highest? Seems there is a lot of concern over losing up time of SD and what not. With them being to close I still wonder if Sub will be so hard to play optimally that the other specs won't still be better.

[lolpve]

When can we expect the new spreadsheet Aethys?

As Sub, I believe that the buff to Shuriken Storm will make the Vigor Talent more valuable than DS versus 4-5+ targets, so you can fit more SStorm in the Shadow Dance window and use Nightblade as a finisher when SD ends. Im just brainstorming but looking forward to check your results.

With DS I can already do 3 shuriken storms within a dance (SS>finisher>SS>finisher>SS>finisher) very easily so I don't really see where rogues need the extra haste from vigor unless they're in blue gear. You're also forgetting that the value of DS was increased due to the evis/nightblade buffs.

[Sinbad101]

Spreadsheet updated, stats scaling not included since I won't do them anymore but instead Optimal Stats Distribution. Still generating the plots for it.

So... This is saying that on Mythic outlaw isn't good for anything?
Not AoE which is pretty lame, not single target, but only by a bit, so BladeFlurry is no longer as useful??

[elfporn]

So... This is saying that on Mythic outlaw isn't good for anything?
Not AoE which is pretty lame, not single target, but only by a bit, so BladeFlurry is no longer as useful??

Take another look.

[Sinbad101]

Take another look.

Bro it's BS. But I looked 20 times,
3 targets - Sin - 687k
Outlaw -646k

More targets - Sub - 624k
Outlaw - 579k

In 1 hotfix they made outlaw useless for mythic raids. That's what this is saying.
AoE was our thing, now we don't have that and they gave it the favorite spec for the last 2 expansions. Bullsh*t

[Deleted]

Yesh sorry, Sub is the way to go now 100%

[Minka]

Yesh sorry, Sub is the way to go now 100%

Should I take Second Shuriken before I go the way to akaari now or?

[Generical]

Guess that settles it then. Will continue to play Outlaw while dumping AP into the Sub weapon and change my loot specialization in hopes of a good Sub/shared Legendary. Assuming this upcoming second (third?) pass doesn't bring the Sub numbers down a bit. Think I'll bank all my AP until the actual changes go live.

Thanks for the quick update Aethys.

[TheRogue]

I would wait, they have said they are still reviewing the changes remember. Before you go abandoning outlaw for sub, I would wait to see what the final numbers are after reset.

[Wow]

The issue is sub was looking good before it just took mythic gear. So it's no surprise this happened and just about any sub buffs will push it past outlaw. The best spec at everything becomes the worst spec at everything the opposite of what they said they would do...

[Geehbee]

I will continue to enjoy my pirate god.

[JabJack]

I'm just upset that artifact power is so important, yet we can't easily interchange specs with-out having to had spend so much time in it.

[Deleted]

It should be noted that the sim profiles for different gear levels also use different amounts of trait points and that is the main source of Sub's sudden jump in damage in the mythic sims.
Being full mythic geared alone won't make Sub the strongest spec unless you also have the AP to back it up.

[Sephiroso]

Not to mention, in Aethys' own words

""Will I see the same results in my raid if we have 3 rogues and each of them got a different spec ?"
- Likely no, for multiple reasons.
First, your 3 rogues might not have the "same skill", ie performs at the same level. While simulations do always "the right thing" based on the APL.
Second, it really depends of the environnement. Each spec got its strengths, so if your boss do have a lot of adds that spawn in waves, Outlaw will probably shines. But if the fight is like a council with 3 sustained targets, then it'll probably be Assassination.
Third, all 3 rogues will have different gear (and probably different Artifact Ranks and different Legendaries), so it's not directly comparable.
Fourth, one attempt is heavily subject of the RNG impact, so its' irrelevant to say that X is better than Y if your sample is very low.
Fifth, the length of the fight does matter, like if your boss die right after a Rupture Exsanguinated, Assassination will had benefit from a good burst before the boss die while others may have theirs 10s later.
Sixth, the strat used may have an impact aswell.
TL;DR : There are a lot of parameters to take in account, you cannot apply those results everywhere. There are true in a given context. Outside of it, it might be heavily wrong."