Simulationcraft results for Legion Expansion (7.0)

[Sephiroso]

So ive been simming my Greenskin's Waterlogged Wristcuffs for a bit and the results kinda amaze me.
Im simming over 45k higher with em then without and Pistol Shot suddenly becomes my top damaging ability but when i try it ingame i barely notice a difference.
Am i just doing something horribly wrong making use of the Greenskin or is the Sim accounting for something else?

You are 100% doing something wrong if you haven't noticed a change in your dps in-game. If you want actual input that will help, you'll need to post logs. Just saying "am i doing something wrong" without showing us what you're doing, how are we to tell you what you're doing wrong?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rists-properly

That post was made by Efficiency which should help somewhat though.

[Mascotte]

You are 100% doing something wrong if you haven't noticed a change in your dps in-game. If you want actual input that will help, you'll need to post logs. Just saying "am i doing something wrong" without showing us what you're doing, how are we to tell you what you're doing wrong?

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...rists-properly

That post was made by Efficiency which should help somewhat though.

Thanks a ton!

[omeomorfismo]

are the action priority optimized for ruptures relic?
i have 3x MA and erasing the delay for exanguinate CD in vendetta's line i gain like 10k of dps
and changing the conditional for vendetta (energy.deficit>70) in >90 i gain like 1-2k of dps

[Bulldozor]

Hey there. I saw you (Aethys256) posting elsewhere on this forum and followed your link here. I have a few questions SimC for assasination (exhanguinate).

I had a look at the sample sequence and i was wondering if using 2x 6cp ruptures before exhanguinating is ideal?

Like this -> http://imgur.com/a/La9p5

I'm wondering if a 2/3cp rupture followed by a 6cp exhanguinate wouldn't be better? You lose a 2-3 ticks of 6 cp rupture but you dont waste a the cp/energy. (Maybe a consideration for 7.15 as rupture damage is normalized?)

I'm also wondering if you have considered doing the same as the exhanguinated rupture falls off. So you would Exhanguinate (18s), 2/3 cp rupture, 6cp rupture for pandemic (36s) 18 + 36 = 54. add a few globals for muti and you have roughly 10 seconds left on rupture you can pandemic and instantly exhanguinate, wasting no time on exhanguinate cooldown.

I'm also curious about kingsbane. The sim seems to be using it straight after exhanguinate, is there any advantage to be gained by using it after the first envenom instead?

I'm sorry if these are very generic questions you have answered a million times, i have tried to look for this type of information but have not been able to find any answers.

Hope you can help!

// Dooz

[Getrow]

@Aethys256 is there a straight forward explanation for why Warcraft Logs has so many more rogues parsing as Assassination in T19M content despite Sub simming higher in T19M gear? I figure most of the min/maxers would rely on sims to know what's best, but a lot (not all) of the top rogues are playing Sin right now and I can't figure out a reasonable explanation as for why they wouldn't be playing Sub.

I'm 887 ilvl with 2 crap legendaries (sadly no sub boots) and am currently spec'd as sub. My guild is getting on my ass though for switching to sub instead of sin saying I picked the wrong spec. I showed them the sims and warcraft logs showing sub actually parses higher on fights like M Ursoc, even just "Base" 880 gear with no legendaries... Their argument is solely based on the fact that there are like 51k Mythic EN Sin parses and only about 1k Mythic EN Sub parses... and if there are that many people going Sin and so many of the top rogues are Sin I must be a retard for choosing Sub.

I've always gone off your sims & data from warcraft logs and I have no idea why there are so few sub rogues...

[elfporn]

@Aethys256 is there a straight forward explanation for why Warcraft Logs has so many more rogues parsing as Assassination in T19M content despite Sub simming higher in T19M gear? I figure most of the min/maxers would rely on sims to know what's best, but a lot (not all) of the top rogues are playing Sin right now and I can't figure out a reasonable explanation as for why they wouldn't be playing Sub.

I'm 887 ilvl with 2 crap legendaries (sadly no sub boots) and am currently spec'd as sub. My guild is getting on my ass though for switching to sub instead of sin saying I picked the wrong spec. I showed them the sims and warcraft logs showing sub actually parses higher on fights like M Ursoc, even just "Base" 880 gear with no legendaries... Their argument is solely based on the fact that there are like 51k Mythic EN Sin parses and only about 1k Mythic EN Sub parses... and if there are that many people going Sin and so many of the top rogues are Sin I must be a retard for choosing Sub.

I've always gone off your sims & data from warcraft logs and I have no idea why there are so few sub rogues...

Most of the people your guild is likely comparing you to are best relics, best legendaries, and max artifact(or close) coupled with good kill times to maximize parses.

The people playing sub in progression are those looking ahead. EN is easy, you don't need to be sin to compete at all.

The sub boots will propel you ahead of everyone else if you get them. My fellow rogue who has boots and ring beat everyone on MCenarius by about 22million damage (i was second, with ring and cinidaria) He ranked 6th too.

In short, stick with it. They don't know what they're talking about.

[Aethys256]

I'm gonna changes the "rules" for Roll the Bones (those currently in place are what you might do ingame unless you like variance and want to achieve a better dps "overall").
Hope this will be spread and people will understand what in RTB mechanic need an adjustement.
In fact, True Bearing fishing is worth 2 Buffs, so unless you got 3 you should just cast RTB and it's a dps increase.

I think that if people know it, maybe Blizzard will be aware and they'll be able to fix in for 7.1.5.

The issue IS NOT Roll the Bones. The issue IS True Bearing.
Just nerf it and put it in Blurred Time. That will solves 3 problems :
- RNG
- RTB
- SnD

Do not hesitate to talk about it on PTR Forums, especially on the US one where I won't be able to post this.

About other specs, I'll make some minor changes on the Subtlety APL and probably Assassination aswell (heard of some issues).

To let you understand what does it means with image and let you see that True Bearing is the biggest concern of Roll the Bones:
Current rules VS True Bearing or 3+ Buffs:

Normal Gear:


With Greenskin:

[Valnar]

True bearings gets even better next patch with the stealth crit legendary if you end up getting that.

Also, as a side note, what is the effective dps gain from just blurred time in that profile with TB|3+ rules?

[Todesbote]

It's no secret that the original "reroll until 2+" rule is not valid with Greenskin's. I think even single TB is better than any 2-roll combination without TB due to the insane power of BtE + Greenskin's + BB. I started rerolling everything that wasn't a 2-roll with TB or 3+ roll quite some time ago. The question is how will this change in 7.1.5...

Aren't they changing TB to no longer reduce BtE CD next patch? And with the Greenskin's buff going up to 700% are we shifting towards a playstyle where (with the Greenskin bracers) we hold BtE until we get a BB proc? Any thoughts on how those changes will influence RtB rules in 7.1.5?

[Sephiroso]

It's no secret that the original "reroll until 2+" rule is not valid with Greenskin's. I think even single TB is better than any 2-roll combination without TB due to the insane power of BtE + Greenskin's + BB. I started rerolling everything that wasn't a 2-roll with TB or 3+ roll quite some time ago. The question is how will this change in 7.1.5...

Aren't they changing TB to no longer reduce BtE CD next patch? And with the Greenskin's buff going up to 700% are we shifting towards a playstyle where (with the Greenskin bracers) we hold BtE until we get a BB proc? Any thoughts on how those changes will influence RtB rules in 7.1.5?

Someone's not keeping up with the changes. Greenskins is back to 400%.

[elfporn]

Someone's not keeping up with the changes. Greenskins is back to 400%.

I am not sure about this? The item in the ptr database still shows 700%? i should get on ptr and find flaskataur

edit: confirmed on ptr, it's 400%

[Sinbad101]

In fact, True Bearing fishing is worth 2 Buffs, so unless you got 3 you should just cast RTB and it's a dps increase.

I think that if people know it, maybe Blizzard will be aware and they'll be able to fix in for 7.1.5.

The issue IS NOT Roll the Bones. The issue IS True Bearing.
Just nerf it and put it in Blurred Time. That will solves 3 problems :
- RNG
- RTB
- SnD

But, they would have to then in turn add a new 6th buff to replace TB, which is all good but... well here's my thoughts:

Maybe a buff that would be similar to TB but would only affect AR and only when using Run through to spend those Cps, just an idea but the loss of TB for RtB would only further slow down the play style and give less interesting things to look out for. Call it "Marauder" idfk, since RtB is more aimed at the pirate theme anyway.

This way at least, we'll keep our old Combat rogue ways of burst of AR when we have the chance and maybe even open the way for rare reactive opportunites to combo the buff with CotDB to decrease AR and perhaps get a back to back AR every blue moon. Just a thought, But i can't image Combat's "rebirth" without any kind of AR CD reduction, as giving the effect of TB to Blurred time would mostlikey (Blizzard's reactions) in turn, take AR off the list of reductions as it would be to strong, to predicatble, and to often.

In return, perhaps they could add Reposte back to TB to add to the mix, thereby making Blurred Time have a semi defensive aspect to it and therefor make it massively more interesting and useful. It is pretty darn close to Blademaster, which has always been a bit odd.


Keep in mind my IQ is 75 and I'm a scrub lord toddler who doesn't do math. But it's better to, like you said, Talk about it and, especially in my case, throw out some outlandish ides and wishes because at least they ARE ideas. But honeslty i would just like to see them balance all the buffs so that they all give similar DPS gains and balance the spec to were we no longer HAVE TO "fish" for any buff or any number of buffs just to be reasonably useful, overall DPS wise.
Idk Aethys, you're the Math Rogue here, is that even possible, and what do you think about my newest ludicrous idea?

BTW, I see what you did there, gone ahead and made your change idea make since "thematicaly" for the Devs, "Blured time"... Cooldowns.. are time...you become fatser...Less time..heheh".
Once again doing 50% of the work for 90% of Everybody.

[Todesbote]

Someone's not keeping up with the changes. Greenskins is back to 400%.

To be fair... Blizz is really making it hard sometimes to keep up. How often are they gonna secondguess themselves? Buff? Nerf? Revert Buff? Revert Nerf? Who the fuck knows whats even going on @blizzHQ anymore.

So did they also make TB reduce BtE again?

[Sephiroso]

To be fair... Blizz is really making it hard sometimes to keep up. How often are they gonna secondguess themselves? Buff? Nerf? Revert Buff? Revert Nerf? Who the fuck knows whats even going on @blizzHQ anymore.

So did they also make TB reduce BtE again?

TB has been reducing BtE for at least a couple weeks on PtR.

[Deleted]

To be fair... Blizz is really making it hard sometimes to keep up. How often are they gonna secondguess themselves? Buff? Nerf? Revert Buff? Revert Nerf? Who the fuck knows whats even going on @blizzHQ anymore.

So did they also make TB reduce BtE again?

Worst parts about Blizz being this indecisive about rogues are that (i) I dont know what lootspec to set for the (never dropping) potential legendaries, and (ii) where to put my AP, currently 33, 32 and 31..

[Imotbh]

@Aethys256, my post is not here to sound mean or angry at you Aethys/skasch. I'm saying things that, according to my humble opinion, could be improved.

Is there any news regarding Outlaw and Assassination in 7.1.5? On the Rogue discord, you and skasch often talk about Sub and improve on its model while the other 2 specs seem to be left out. You two love Sub (which is great, everyone has a favourite spec) but as a result : there isn't much information going on about Otl/Asn. Guides/spreadsheets haven't been updated for a while now though you take the time to do researches on how to gain a single digit in Sub DPS. It's great to love a spec but it's a shame if it is at the cost of dropping the others, more so when they're played by the majority of the community. For instance :

- Any news about Outlaw talents? T15 shouldn't have changed but what about T90 and 100?
- Anything new regarding DP/Anticipation in all 3 specs?
- Master Poisoner > Elaborate Planning? or Hemo?
- What about the T19? How do they work? From what I've seen the 4P works in synergy with the 2P while Hemo isn't counted as a bleed in the equation. Also, should you be pooling to have 100% uptime on the Mut bleeding?
- How good/bad are the new legendaries?
- Are the Sims with Nighthold trinkets updated? Procs were maybe changed during PTR lifecycle.

Maybe some of those questions were answered while chatting on discord and it's great if it's case. Maybe some will need to be answered or checked again when the patch is live. Nevertheless, I'm a bit skeptical about the whole discussion thing since the talkative people about the most used spec (to take an example) aren't even theorycrafters. I don't have anything against those people of course and I would even add that I'm glad they're reading and answering questions. Once again, it's simply a shame that there's little support coming from you outside of Sub talks.

[Aethys256]

Just to clarify:

- Skasch was the "Assassination guy" while I was the "Subtlety guy", we both did Outlaw. (Of course with the help of Navv)
- Skasch is no longer playing.
- So I do update the whole Rogue module, Assassination included, it's just the last one I do and will do. (If you're curious, check the APL changes that occured some weeks ago, I redid it from scratch, so no I don't put Assassination on the side)
- 7.1.5 is not a Live Patch therefore I don't see what are the "outdated things" since nothing changed for Live yet. And if you followed the PTR changes, you're aware that you cannot predict what will go live nor what will be hotfixed 1 week after it goes live. I think Blizzard doesn't even know itself.
- Simulationcraft rogue module is not fully updated for 7.1.5 : Some minor things are missing for Subtlety (mostly shoulder "special" model and tweaks in the APL), Outlaw APL might need to be updated in regards to latest changes, several things in the Assassination APL needs to be changed, I am aware of all of this of course. The thing is, I'm not paid for anything I do, I do it on my freetime (since I do mythic raid, I have to farm 54 and many others things until the next patch goes live).
- No default profiles have been updated for 7.1.5.
- There is no point making a spreadsheet with all the flaws I put above.
- Finally, there is big project going on that will probably answer all those questions and many more, stay tuned

PS : I always answered someone who mentioned me on Discord, try it.

[Nonton]

are the action priority optimized for ruptures relic?
i have 3x MA and erasing the delay for exanguinate CD in vendetta's line i gain like 10k of dps
and changing the conditional for vendetta (energy.deficit>70) in >90 i gain like 1-2k of dps

Although this doesn't answer your question directly, I believe MA relics devalue the use of exsanguinate anyway. Just swapping that talent makes my sim dps go from 505k to 480k and although this could be due to the action priority not being optimized or just my personal stat distribution, I believe I also had a similar dps disparity when I first swapped to MA relics and simmed below 400k dps. Iirc correctly the difference between the two specs was much smaller for me before swapping to MA relics, but of course I'm not providing any explanation for this, just my own experience.

I'd recommend using AP asap outside of certain fights where Exsanguinate (and the added aoe damage from deadly poison) is clearly favorable. As for optimizing damage when using exsanguinate, if the simulation is providing more damage when you change the priority, then I don't see why you wouldn't just do that instead.

[adky]

Although this doesn't answer your question directly, I believe MA relics devalue the use of exsanguinate anyway. Just swapping that talent makes my sim dps go from 505k to 480k and although this could be due to the action priority not being optimized or just my personal stat distribution, I believe I also had a similar dps disparity when I first swapped to MA relics and simmed below 400k dps. Iirc correctly the difference between the two specs was much smaller for me before swapping to MA relics, but of course I'm not providing any explanation for this, just my own experience.
.

MA relics are BiS for Exsang too.
The problem is the Exsang profile doesn't recognize MA relics at all and will hold Vendetta for every second Exsang (90s), which explains everything you mentioned.

[Kwakman]

Is simcraft working ok with 7.1.5 Aethys? I mean a lot of last minute changes where added so I figured I'd ask here.