1. Originally Posted by Faylo
Hi brusalk. Thanks for the guide. I was wondering about the usage Dimensional Rift. If you have 2 charges, and the remaining charge has gone through say 35 seconds of its recharge time (so 10 secs left) - and then you get proc of Dimensional Ripper, you have essensitially lost 35/45 of a Dimensional Rift. Woulden't it be better to stay at 1 charge to prevent capping duo to Dimensional Ripper?

2. Originally Posted by Faylo
Hi brusalk. Thanks for the guide. I was wondering about the usage Dimensional Rift. If you have 2 charges, and the remaining charge has gone through say 35 seconds of its recharge time (so 10 secs left) - and then you get proc of Dimensional Ripper, you have essensitially lost 35/45 of a Dimensional Rift. Woulden't it be better to stay at 1 charge to prevent capping duo to Dimensional Ripper?
Originally Posted by Brusalk
Dimension Ripper

Dimension Ripper makes your Incinerate have a 4% chance to generate a full charge of Dimensional Rift. This means that you should only ever bank 1 charge of Dimensional Rift. If you have two charges, then you have a chance to lose the proc from Dimension Ripper.
10characters

3. Originally Posted by Brusalk
Chaotic Energies increases the damage of our spells by a random amount, up to a maximum. This does not affect pet damage! This maximum is what is listed on the tooltip. However, you can expect your spells to deal increased damage by an average of this maximum/2. With 0 mastery you will have 24% randomly increased damage.

For example, if you cast a spell while you have 100% Mastery, you can expect that spell to deal, on average, 50% increased damage. You have a non-zero chance to have it deal 0% additional damage, and an equally non-zero chance for it to deal 100% increased damage. (This is otherwise known as a Binomial Distribution)
Isn't mastery simply a (discrete) Uniform Distribution between 0 and Mastery% (instead of binomial)?

It may be quite impossible to test but I wonder if the mastery rolls can only be integer numbers or if they can be more precise. If for example you had 3.7% mastery (yes, I know it can't actually be that low) are the only possible rolls 0%, 1%, 2%, and 3% OR 0.0%, 0.1%, ..., 3.6%, 3.7%? Or something else...

4. I've been thinking about it and I'm just not sure I agree with taking RoF damage over incinerate damage after the incinerate buff. Frankly I'm struggling to think of what fights during testing I even bothered touching RoF, and in the situations I can think of that damage didn't matter at all. Incinerate on the other hand is your primary filler which is going to see heavy use unless you end up with the super cheese of soulsnatcher + soul conduit + legendary belt. And even in the event of that fire and brimstones looking a lot more viable since the buff, as well as generally more useful than RoF for when you need aoe. And with the belt I imagine aoe would look a lot like just spamming FnB incinerates and using the shards that procs for RoF.

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@Uzkin Fairly confident it does decimals. I'm sure I've gotten numbers too close to each other to be full percents and it'd be silly if blizzard did that as it'd give it break points.

5. Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese
@Uzkin Fairly confident it does decimals. I'm sure I've gotten numbers too close to each other to be full percents and it'd be silly if blizzard did that as it'd give it break points.
Yeah, that'd make sense.

BTW, now that you mentioned the legendary belt & shard refund traits and talents... does such a setup force you to cast CB immediately when you get 2 shards? Casting CB at 3 shards could theoretically result in the gain of 2 (soul conduit) + 1 (soul snatcher) + 1 (belt) + 1 (immolate) causing you to waste a shard. Even when casting CB at 2 shards it seems necessary to try to spam CB button at the end of the first cast just in case you get refunded back to 2+ shards. Pretty annoying playstyle, if that's indeed how it works.

Edit. numbers mistake fixed.

6. Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese
I've been thinking about it and I'm just not sure I agree with taking RoF damage over incinerate damage after the incinerate buff. Frankly I'm struggling to think of what fights during testing I even bothered touching RoF, and in the situations I can think of that damage didn't matter at all. Incinerate on the other hand is your primary filler which is going to see heavy use unless you end up with the super cheese of soulsnatcher + soul conduit + legendary belt. And even in the event of that fire and brimstones looking a lot more viable since the buff, as well as generally more useful than RoF for when you need aoe. And with the belt I imagine aoe would look a lot like just spamming FnB incinerates and using the shards that procs for RoF.

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@Uzkin Fairly confident it does decimals. I'm sure I've gotten numbers too close to each other to be full percents and it'd be silly if blizzard did that as it'd give it break points.
Thats excatly what I did in the beta and I loved the feel and speed of destruction as well as had great results. Backdraft -> FnB incinerate spam just feels so good, and this was before the incinerate buffs. I can see how 15% rof damage is probably mathematically better but you will be using incinerate so, so much more. I feel FnB is the best comprimise between great aoe potential vs loss of single target dps and I highly recommend everyone to atleast try it, especially for dungeons.

7. Thanks, I'm good at reading!

8. Originally Posted by Uzkin
BTW, now that you mentioned the legendary belt & shard refund traits and talents...
Afaik Cb basically becomes filler and the spec becomes super dumbed down. I think gaidax was bragging about how he cast 4 incinerates the entire fight during one of the testings because of that setup.

9. Ya, legendary + artifact talent + soul conduit is retarded. we'll have ridiculous % chance of refunding 1 soul shard using CB. We'll reach a point which we'll need to use almost 100% of time CB because immolate crit rate + haste will be so fucking high that we'll generate almost as much shards that we can spent spamming CB.

I'm almost 100% certain blizz know about it and they'll nerf the shoul shard generation or soul shard refund and then raise the CB damage to force us using more incinerate in our rotation.

10. One thing not discussed in the guide is best relic traits. B4 the RB nerf I was pretty certain the immolate critical strike trait was best for relics as it double dips on dmg and resources, but it's possible that the CB traits win now post-nerf. Anyone with updated math/testing on that?

11. Originally Posted by blackops2008
Ya, legendary + artifact talent + soul conduit is retarded. we'll have ridiculous % chance of refunding 1 soul shard using CB. We'll reach a point which we'll need to use almost 100% of time CB because immolate crit rate + haste will be so fucking high that we'll generate almost as much shards that we can spent spamming CB.

I'm almost 100% certain blizz know about it and they'll nerf the shoul shard generation or soul shard refund and then raise the CB damage to force us using more incinerate in our rotation.
A large number of the legendaries are potentially game breaking. I'm sure Blizz has noticed this. They decided to go ahead with them anyway so...

12. Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock
One thing not discussed in the guide is best relic traits. B4 the RB nerf I was pretty certain the immolate critical strike trait was best for relics as it double dips on dmg and resources, but it's possible that the CB traits win now post-nerf. Anyone with updated math/testing on that?
I though this too, and while i dont have beta, i try in sims with 3/3 relics for Burning Hunger, Soulsnatcher, Residual Flames and Chaotic Instability, and for my setup, what give better DPS is 3/3 relics for boosting Residual Flames... My guess? Burning Hunger may be is affected by DR.

13. Originally Posted by Bjarkan
I though this too, and while i dont have beta, i try in sims with 3/3 relics for Burning Hunger, Soulsnatcher, Residual Flames and Chaotic Instability, and for my setup, what give better DPS is 3/3 relics for boosting Residual Flames... My guess? Burning Hunger may be is affected by DR.
Mathematically that doesn't make sense. An X% additive increase in crit on a given spell is exactly equal to an X% increase in dmg on that spell. This is true as long as crit rate ends at or below 100%.

Sim results saying Residual Flames better than burning hunger don't seem logical to me

14. Originally Posted by Numar
1) In your Guide you want Dimensional Rift to be sustained on 2 Stacks for Procs/Burstphases but arent u "overcapping/losing some seconds with a Dimensional Ripper proc? Especially for Singletarget without Prioadds I thought it'd be better to stay on 1 Stack all the time.
You're correct I mention in the artifact section that you should chance your behavior to sit on one charge at most once you pick up Dimensional Ripper.

Originally Posted by Numar
Kinda the same direction as the first one but you advice to save up to 3/4 Soulshards for CB dump. With Roaring Blaze as the go-to Talent in most situations I thought you'd want to plan ahead and stay on 2 Shards for every Immolate cycle cause otherwise you'd overcap (2x conflag and maybe Immolate proc). Furthermore wouldnt you also overcap when Soulsnatcher/Soul Conduit and Feretory (kinda unsure if this procs with CB) all proc at the same time with 3-4 Shards in the bank?
I'll make it more clear that the general rotation section is intended to be looked at from a baseline PoV. Once you get other talents/items you have to change the default playstyle to suit. You are correct that you'll want to time out your consumption so that you don't cap with the required shard generation forced on you by Conflag with Roaring Blaze.

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Originally Posted by Lyara
Do we know if the Demo legendary "Sin'dorei Spite" also works for Destruction, since it is not included in your list?
I believe I've heard that it is usable provided you obtain it while spec'd as Demo. I'd love it if someone else can provide confirmation of that fact

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Originally Posted by Nikolalia
Great guide many thanks. Regarding Roaring Blaze: Roaring Blaze
Save up 2 charges of Conflag
Get full 24 second Immolate via double-cast
Cast Conflag => Conflag
Fill with normal rotation
Cast a third Conflag off cooldown
Refresh Immolate at the last possible second of the buff to maintain RB buff
When you're about to cap on your 2nd Conflag charge, Immolate (goes to 24 second duration), and go to 2.

On the " refresh immotale at last possible second to maintain RB buff", am sure when you cast a fresh immolate on RB buffed immolate, it resets the stacks of the RB buff to 0, having an unbuffed Immolate again, which needs buffing by Conflag again. Could be mistaken but sure when i tested it it worked like this.
You're correct. I worded it poorly and it's caused a lot of confusion I see.

All I meant by that line was that you want to postpone refreshing that Immolate as late as possible in order to "maintain the RB buff as long as possible". I mentioned in the talent section under Roaring Blaze that refreshing Immolate early will cause you to lose all of your damage bonus.

I'll fix the wording so it's less confusing.

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Originally Posted by Matajuss
Channel Doomfire is also affected by Backdraft
Interesting. Thanks for the info! Added!

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Originally Posted by blackops2008
Confirmed and the rb stacks goes to 0 when you refresh immolate. People should check their infos before making a guide.

Now i have my doubts about mana tap being really better than reverse entropy since OP gaves us missinformation about immolate RB stacks.

We're going to cast alot of CB's at 110 when we get our artifact leveled, we'll get alot of soul shards refunded = more CB casted and reverse entropy gives us 0.5 reduced cast time on CB, more cb casted = more benefict from reverse entropy.
Sorry to have caused confusion, but I didn't mean to imply that you could maintain RB past a refresh of Immolate. That was a poor choice of phrasing in that particular section. If you look at the Roaring Blaze description in the talent section, you can see that I specifically mention that the damage bonus is lost if you refresh Immolate early.

You're correct that the benefit of RE goes up the greater the portion of our active time we spend casting Chaos Bolt/Rain of Fire. I'll have some more detailed theorycrafting for this section soon.

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Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese
Glad to see you're making the guide brusalk ^^

From what I understand taking mana tap is a 1-2% dmg increase over reverse entropy in patchwerk / cleave. Aoe is the only place where mana tap would have a clear advantage over RE and at that point you're taking a hard look at cataclysm. Considering most players won't play as well as simcraft, I'd *imagine* most people will see better results with reverse entropy vs mana tap.

CDF is in a similar position as well, its atm supposedly a 2% increase over soul conduit, so while it is better people may struggle to fit it in the rotation especially alongside other things like trying to cram in roaring blaze and mana tap, I could see them being better off just taking soul conduit.

Roaring blaze is supposedly a 3% dmg increase over backdraft after the nerfs, so that's another thing that could be debatable for people if they're having trouble. All 3 together is obviously going to be significant vs someone taking the weaker options, but its also significantly harder to play. I'd probably try to stress that to people so they don't try to take more on than they may be able to handle and then get frustrated when they aren't getting the expected results.

All of those numbers are based on word of mouth and the early simcraft results, so take them with a grain of salt.

That's a fair assessment. I'll try and clarify that when evenly tied, passive talents are _usually_ better.

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Originally Posted by PhoenixLite
Thx for the guide

Could you confirm a feeling I've been having during my (very few) Destro tests :
Conflag' duplicated through Havoc DO NOT generate a second shard, right ? Only the one casted on the main target ?
Correct, Conflag duplicated through Havoc does not generate a second Shard. You generate shards on-cast, not on-damage. You're only casting Conflag once.

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Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock
Dimension ripper is 5%, not 4.

Legendary cloak is not an 8% increase. It doesn't apply to
-imp damage
-infernal or doomguard damage
-demonic power (grimoire of sacrifice) damage

It ends up closer to 6-6.5%
Good catches! I'll fix.

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Originally Posted by Faylo
Hi brusalk. Thanks for the guide. I was wondering about the usage Dimensional Rift. If you have 2 charges, and the remaining charge has gone through say 35 seconds of its recharge time (so 10 secs left) - and then you get proc of Dimensional Ripper, you have essensitially lost 35/45 of a Dimensional Rift. Woulden't it be better to stay at 1 charge to prevent capping duo to Dimensional Ripper?
You're correct! In the special mentions section for Dimension Ripper I mention that you should only bank one charge of DR. I'll change the formatting to hopefully make it more apparent.

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Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock
One thing not discussed in the guide is best relic traits. B4 the RB nerf I was pretty certain the immolate critical strike trait was best for relics as it double dips on dmg and resources, but it's possible that the CB traits win now post-nerf. Anyone with updated math/testing on that?
That sounds like a great addition. I'll do some thinking/theorcrafting on it and add a section soonTM. (Tracking https://github.com/Brusalk/destro-guide/issues/6)

15. I can confirm sindorei spite was usable by destro (and affliction) in last round of beta testing

16. I'm trying something new with this version of the guide, and I've made a github for it: https://github.com/Brusalk/destro-guide/issues

I'm going to be keeping track of questions and things to add to the guide/investigate since I'm getting questions from a variety of sources nowadays, and not just here in these forums.

Anyone is welcome to help contribute to the guide by forking and creating a pull request to change wording/add a section/fix issues!

I'll be trying to keep up on the discussion here, but when I encounter a question I need to think about but don't have the time for, I'll create a ticket so I can track it.

17. The other thing I'm starting to think about is coming up with an ilvl equivalency for relic traits. Because sometimes you'll have a higher ilvl relic with a worse trait and it's important to know if the relics is worth equipping since you can't equip it then change your mind.

I don't trust sims for this at the moment

18. Updated

1.0.3 (8/20/2016) - 7.0.3
• Added Channel Demonfire to the list of things affected by Backdraft
• Clarified wording on Roaring Blaze. Didn't mean to imply you could maintain RB stacks through a refresh.
• Fixed description of Odr, Shawl of the Ymirjar
• Fixed Dimension Ripper proc chance.

19. Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock
Mathematically that doesn't make sense. An X% additive increase in crit on a given spell is exactly equal to an X% increase in dmg on that spell. This is true as long as crit rate ends at or below 100%.

Sim results saying Residual Flames better than burning hunger don't seem logical to me
But is also true that a Breakpoint for Immolation %Crit and Burning Hunger could have been taking into account... Dimishing Return... Is a fact that in the begining, "Y" value of crit rate is equal to X%, but is logical to assum that after a point, a new range of value it would take place in the ecuation. And this is what i think it is, Blizz wont give us that much of Crit to almost make every tick of Immolate be a Crit, that could it be game breaking seen how much increment of flat damage Immolate can had.

20. Anyone been having funky results with any Havoc macros ?

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