Brewmaster performance in Mythics

[Saverem]

The thing that irritates me more about the BrM beyond anything else right now is the questing/grinding with one.

Right now stagger WILL interrupt channeling quest stuff and it's super frustrating. Like I would kill a mob, and will have 100 damage ticks from their weak attacks on me and when I go to use a channeling item on an NPC (like bandaging them, or waking them up, etc) the stagger damage WILL interrupt it. I'll have to sit them for 5 seconds until stagger wears off to be able to use the item.

Found that to be so fucking annoying.

[madmossy]

I can agree there, most annoying thing ever having to wait up to 10 seconds before you can interact, even more annoying that when you mount a water strider, stagger ticks cancel out the water walking so you have re-mount when it runs out.

[keqe]

Being on corner abusing OD at 35% HP doesn't make us equal with other tanks. It makes us better (maybe not warriors). You can survive almost anything without any kind of external healing.

It is cheesy but strong. But we can easily survive and do content without that abuse. I found monk more "safe" in dungeons than my DH because stagger makes damage spikes non-existing. Easy to manage the damage taken and prepare.

[gdorneles]

How? I'm sitting at 840 with mythic relics, and get absolutely raped in heroics. I won't even try Mythics as Brew(I run as WW in my Mythic group but want to tank as well) After playing with my mythic group and seeing all the tanks in action, I can honestly and personally say we are in the worst spot right now, without a doubt. Dk's equaling and in some cases out healing our healers, Druids a brick shit house, Paladin is god mode, same with Warrior and Than there's us.

You guys who say you're being successful, what are you doing? Are you focusing on mainly just purifying the staggered damage and less about ISB? I've played the Brew since they were released so I'm not a complete shitbag at the class and spec

I've been doing mythic since 820 ilvl and I had no problem at all with it, just try to keep ISB 100% at the time and purify red stagger.
I can only imagine you're a really bad player or you have really bad healers.
Also brewmasters don't stay at 100% life at all times, its okay to be at 60% or less, but of course you shoudn't want to be that low.
If you reach 35% life you'll get OD procs and the Healing Elixir talent if you took it (You should), so you won't die immediately, actually you'll be okay for some time, enough to you healer to heal you back up.

[Kyno]

I've been doing mythic since 820 ilvl and I had no problem at all with it, just try to keep ISB 100% at the time and purify red stagger.
I can only imagine you're a really bad player or you have really bad healers.
Also brewmasters don't stay at 100% life at all times, its okay to be at 60% or less, but of course you shoudn't want to be that low.
If you reach 35% life you'll get OD procs and the Healing Elixir talent if you took it (You should), so you won't die immediately, actually you'll be okay for some time, enough to you healer to heal you back up.

I was a bit stressed out to go tanking Heroics at 800 yesterday given all I had read, but it went just fine. Didn't check the healer ilvl, but it was probably not 840, nor our DPS.

Agreed on tactic. I'm currently trying to maintain ISB as much as possible and Purify at no less than 40%, not to say 50%, although I don't have a lot of haste yet (and maybe not always perform my rotation optimally ) so I was sometimes running short on Purify on bosses. Still, no wipes.
I was using the Blackout Combo by the way.

Edit: I just tanked Mythic Neltharion at 808 with a 837 healer and it went rather well, despite more close calls. Gonna need to up my haste now, sitting a 12%

[Deleted]

first of all, brewmaster is probably the hardest tanks of all, that's why you will get many different answers, ranging from "it was pretty easy" to "it was impossible to do any mythic dungeons even though im 835+".

For me, i did every mythic dungeon with a guild group and we didn't wipe a single time in any mythic and we were all between ilvl 815 to 825. The healer was a druid and i never felt like i was in danger at any point. So yeah, in my opinion brewmaster are doing very well in mythic dungeons but i am 100% sure you will get different answers from other people.

IIRC, you shouldn't be "trying to keep ISB up" anymore than a Paladin should try to keep Shield of Righteous up. You should never run out of stacks of brews because they aren't meant to be spammed and this is where a lot of nuance comes with tanking as a Brewmaster. You really need to pay attention - you can't slap up an absorb and snooze through packs of mobs. Instead, you need to understand when massive amounts of damage is going to come in and mitigate accordingly. Keep in mind Stagger is passive mitigation as is, so you don't need constantly be hitting something.

Pick the right talents and you can easily have 100% uptime on ISB. After that it's just keeping Keg Smash on CD and not capping your energy. So the right play actually is to spam your brews. They removed a lot of choice from playing a BrM that revolved about CD timings and management. Not even your active mitigation has to be planned since you can stack your ISB endlessly as soon as you get 15+% haste. I have no idea how people can still think BrM is hard to play.

Brewmaster is less complicated then it is simply not fun. It's actually pretty strong for survival in 5 mans, easily top 2 even but the play style is dull and you lack any form of real utility along with your aoe dps being absolute garbage compared to Prot Pal and DH(who I think are actually the 2 worst tanks mitigation wise but they make up for it with insane utility, aoe dps and a much more fluid play style).

It isn't really worthwhile to rank the tanks with the content that is in the game right now since you're only going to have problems if you're not playing your class correctly. I mean how hard can it be when most of the dungeons can already be solo'd by a lot of the tanks on mythic difficulty. I don't get though why you think that prot paladins are on the worse end of mitigation since it does exactly what you want from a mitigation stand point. Extremely strong and on a decently short CD.

[ethannumber1]

Brewmasters greatest weakness is there lack of cooldowns. They have no shorter cooldown they can pop when in danger and they have no damage increasing cd when your team needs to burst something. When you look at each tanks survival kits and support abilities the monks don't offer anything another tank can't do better.

I already geared and leveled my protection paladin and now I'm working on my monk. The paladin feels so much stronger and useful. There has been times in dungeons where someone agros extra packs of mobs (halls of valor usally) and my paladin can survive with his cds and I know my monk would have just died because the damage would be too much for stagger to handle and theirs not a whole lot he can do when shit goes bad.

Also the artifact ability is straight up stupid. I would rather have any other tank artifact ability.

[goldfishie]

i mean, my internet friends say im horrible at tank and i was able to no healer tank mythic. so as far as i can tell they're in a pretty good spot.

[Tech614]

It isn't really worthwhile to rank the tanks with the content that is in the game right now

Which I'm not doing. I'm stating my feelings on them from actually testing the meaningful content on beta. If you think that post has anything to do with base mythics and heroics, it doesn't. Any tank can and will face roll them. You have to mess up pretty hardcore to even wipe in mythics.

To answer your question about Paladins- I think they have amazing utility but their mitigation is pathetic and they are one of the spikiest tanks when it comes to damage in take only rivaled by Vengeance and Blood. They however lack the burst come back ability Vengeance and Blood both have outside of very long CDs. They also have pretty substantial lower EH then Vengeance and Blood assuming both have AM up. You bring a Paladin for the combination of their utility and strong aoe, certainly not for overall mitigation where they feel like a joke compared to Prot War and Brewmaster.

[Deleted]

To answer your question about Paladins- I think they have amazing utility but their mitigation is pathetic and they are one of the spikiest tanks when it comes to damage in take only rivaled by Vengeance and Blood. They however lack the burst come back ability Vengeance and Blood both have outside

They take high damage without their AM, which is actually what it's supposed to be. And godlike while SoTR is running. Leaving room for timing and skill is what makes paladin so great right now. What you mean by they lack the burst to come back I really don't get since they have single most powerful self healing ability of all tanks with HotP on 10 second CD without haste.
If you want to have the utility of a paladin you're not forced to bring a prot paladin since holy has almost the same toolkit in this regard. Most top guilds are thinking about bringing paladin as a tank mostly because of their insane damage, because they're extremely good at tanking multiple enemies and because they have one of the strongest Active Mitigation and CDs.
So is paladin mitigation bad? Overall you could maybe say that if you want to sustain extremely high damage for a very long time (minutes or longer), but every tank is going to suffer there because a lot of tanks lack CDs. But you don't want to be okayish all the time as a monk is. You want to be strong, when you need it, which is for 30-40 seconds during big pulls in mythic+ or when you're actively tanking a boss through different hardhitting abilities the boss could have and weak during downtime.
By the way being squishy means taking extremely high damage all the time, while being in danger of being onehit. Like BDKs in HfC. Paladin is never in danger of getting onehit (due to artifact abilities) and dropping low is part of their gameplay. Just because they're using their health as a ressource and healers are not used to that it does not mean they're squishy.

[Xequecal]

They take high damage without their AM, which is actually what it's supposed to be. And godlike while SoTR is running. Leaving room for timing and skill is what makes paladin so great right now. What you mean by they lack the burst to come back I really don't get since they have single most powerful self healing ability of all tanks with HotP on 10 second CD without haste.
If you want to have the utility of a paladin you're not forced to bring a prot paladin since holy has almost the same toolkit in this regard. Most top guilds are thinking about bringing paladin as a tank mostly because of their insane damage, because they're extremely good at tanking multiple enemies and because they have one of the strongest Active Mitigation and CDs.
So is paladin mitigation bad? Overall you could maybe say that if you want to sustain extremely high damage for a very long time (minutes or longer), but every tank is going to suffer there because a lot of tanks lack CDs. But you don't want to be okayish all the time as a monk is. You want to be strong, when you need it, which is for 30-40 seconds during big pulls in mythic+ or when you're actively tanking a boss through different hardhitting abilities the boss could have and weak during downtime.
By the way being squishy means taking extremely high damage all the time, while being in danger of being onehit. Like BDKs in HfC. Paladin is never in danger of getting onehit (due to artifact abilities) and dropping low is part of their gameplay. Just because they're using their health as a ressource and healers are not used to that it does not mean they're squishy.

Paladins have the same problems that DHs do, they're great in Mythic+ dungeons where you can wait for shit to recharge between trash packs but not so good in Mythic raids where they have EH issues and can just get RNG trucked down when their AM runs out and they fail to block a few hits.

My biggest annoyance with Monk is how you're dependent on scoring the belt legendary. That thing is stupid, stupid strong and is the strongest tank legendary by miles. I'm pretty sure most classes can't claim a 20-25% overall damage reduction from their legendary effect, and that's what that belt does.

[Xahz]

I'm pretty sure most classes can't claim a 20-25% overall damage reduction from their legendary effect, and that's what that belt does.

Yea, neither can BrM. 25% healing on purifying brew is not the same as 25% damage reduction.

[Tech614]

Yea, neither can BrM. 25% healing on purifying brew is not the same as 25% damage reduction.

Not to mention the DH ring is more overall healing then the brewmaster belt. 15% leech on 80%(possibly higher) uptime. No tanking class needs a legendary(like him saying BRM is "dependent" on it), but there are a handful of really good ones like those.

[Xequecal]

Not to mention the DH ring is more overall healing then the brewmaster belt. 15% leech on 80%(possibly higher) uptime. No tanking class needs a legendary(like him saying BRM is "dependent" on it), but there are a handful of really good ones like those.

Healing for a percentage of your own damage is a lot worse than healing for a percentage of the damage the boss does to you. I can't believe I need to explain that, it's so obvious. If you assume you purify away 33% of the boss' DPS, that means the belt heals you for 8.25% of the boss' damage. Assuming it can crit and is affected by Celestial Fortune, that means with 25% crit it boosts the healing up to about 10.79% of the boss' damage. Since the boss has to do enough damage to erase the healing you got and then damage you back down to the HP level you would have been at if you didn't have the belt, this is similar to a 21.6% damage reduction.

Now, I know someone is going to come in here and say that healing isn't actually equivalent to straight DR because the boss could kill you before you get a chance to heal, but Monk EH is so astronomically high with ISB that this is not really a concern.

[Juliansfist]

My main concern with this corner tanking business is when stuff begins hitting harder (eg mythics+ and raids) and you aren't able to reliably bounce back up in health and also come raids where corner tanking simply isn't an option. I've stayed away from the tactic myself and have gotten through tanking all mythics having started at around 815 ilvl (which is when I started and in pug format).

Could do double packs then and sometimes triple packs if the group was good. At 845 ilvl now (only 13 artifact points though as main is WW) I can survive triple packs even in pugs. All this without needing to gimp OD and corners so to my fellow BrM out there some Dutch courage and step up to the plate.

[Deleted]

Paladins have the same problems that DHs do, they're great in Mythic+ dungeons where you can wait for shit to recharge between trash packs but not so good in Mythic raids where they have EH issues and can just get RNG trucked down when their AM runs out and they fail to block a few hits.

My biggest annoyance with Monk is how you're dependent on scoring the belt legendary. That thing is stupid, stupid strong and is the strongest tank legendary by miles. I'm pretty sure most classes can't claim a 20-25% overall damage reduction from their legendary effect, and that's what that belt does.

Most fights have tank swap mechanics that give you enough time to recharge your AM. I could only see Paladin struggling on fights with long high damaging DoTs (especially Ursoc basically) or on mechanics, which deal a lot of damage, where you can't SotR a target like we had in HfC with Iron Reaver. Outside of that by calling externals, using trinkets or pots ,using other personal CDs or just dropping low and healing it back with HotP I think Paladin is going to be fine. No wonder most top guilds are choosing Paladin as one of their main tanks next to Druid or Warrior.
And on the subject of Monk legendaries I suppose you're talking about Gai Plin's Soothing Sash? I think you're hardly overestimating the strength of the affix. Even if you're clearing a full stagger (which is most of the time already too late) you're only healing for 12.5% of your maximum health. That's in raid gear with maybe 4mil life a 500k heal, while bosses probably hit you for 2mil. It doesn't even have haste on it. So I'd say that legendary is ok at best and far far away from a 20-25% DR.

Healing for a percentage of your own damage is a lot worse than healing for a percentage of the damage the boss does to you. I can't believe I need to explain that, it's so obvious. If you assume you purify away 33% of the boss' DPS, that means the belt heals you for 8.25% of the boss' damage. Assuming it can crit and is affected by Celestial Fortune, that means with 25% crit it boosts the healing up to about 10.79% of the boss' damage. Since the boss has to do enough damage to erase the healing you got and then damage you back down to the HP level you would have been at if you didn't have the belt, this is similar to a 21.6% damage reduction.

Now, I know someone is going to come in here and say that healing isn't actually equivalent to straight DR because the boss could kill you before you get a chance to heal, but Monk EH is so astronomically high with ISB that this is not really a concern.

That's pretty interesting, I didn't even see this post at first. But neither knowing how stagger works, nor knowing how purifying brew works and completely rejecting overhealing being a thing actually makes the belt a really good legendary. Nice to know.

[Xequecal]

Yeah, you're going to have to elaborate on how I apparently "don't know how stagger and purifying brew work." You can start by explaining whatever you think "full stagger" is. (Hint: There's no such thing.)

[Kyno]

Pick the right talents and you can easily have 100% uptime on ISB. After that it's just keeping Keg Smash on CD and not capping your energy. So the right play actually is to spam your brews. They removed a lot of choice from playing a BrM that revolved about CD timings and management. Not even your active mitigation has to be planned since you can stack your ISB endlessly as soon as you get 15+% haste. I have no idea how people can still think BrM is hard to play.



It isn't really worthwhile to rank the tanks with the content that is in the game right now since you're only going to have problems if you're not playing your class correctly. I mean how hard can it be when most of the dungeons can already be solo'd by a lot of the tanks on mythic difficulty. I don't get though why you think that prot paladins are on the worse end of mitigation since it does exactly what you want from a mitigation stand point. Extremely strong and on a decently short CD.

Thing is, having tried all tanks, BrM remained the only one that felt like you could use a bit of your cells, which sold it for me.

[Tech614]

Healing for a percentage of your own damage is a lot worse than healing for a percentage of the damage the boss does to you.

Except for when a DH does more damage to a boss then a boss does to a monk tank. That % is way higher, more overall healing, and flat out ridiculous tbh. You have to purify intelligently to even get a marginal benefit from the belt. The DH always gets the benefit from the ring just from using their AM on their face rolling CDs. DH is also always taking spike damage and self healing it back so OHing is pretty irrelevant to them.

Not to mention you still think healing is DR, like it's an absorb or something. Then again you're the same cat that thinks warriors are immune to damage from ignore pain when while it's good, no where near your hyperbole so not surprising you feel the same hyperbolic thoughts about yet another thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Thing is, having tried all tanks, BrM remained the only one that felt like you could use a bit of your cells, which sold it for me.

Don't kid yourself, BRM tanking is about as brain dead as all tanking specs atm. The difference a healer will notice from a BRM who just spams ISB then one who purifies correctly is so small outside of bleeding edge content(which none is available yet).

[Deleted]

Thought I'd chime in here as I was lucky enough to get the legendary belt within the first week of playing (from an emissary chest). I'm not sure about the math behind it, but I have regularly checked the sources of my self healing and can say that the belt does regularly 10 to 15 percent of my self healing. It CAN of course heal for a higher amount when I get higher stagger (>80%), but that rarely happens in mythic dungeons even on lower gear. I'm eagerly awaiting raids to test it on hard hitting boss mechanics.

All in all the belt has not (yet) been a game changer for me.

Edit: I swapped to Elusive Dance as soon as I reached 30% haste from gear for the synergy.