[Shadow] 845 ilv , 40% haste - Do I keep going up?

[Alexieel]

I understand all the synergies the different stats have with talents and abilites, though it doesn't matter in this case. What I don't understand is how crit can "at no point pass it [haste]. ever." while a haste+crit ring is better than a haste only ring.

I know versatility is our worst stat, that's why i chose it in that sentence. My point was that saying "haste is best, but get crit because it's beneficial" is illogical and not something you can quantify. I could say the same about versatility and it would have the same meaning. "A is best, but get B because it also has value."

I still don't understand the logic and I honestly don't mean to be criticizing, I'm just curious. If there is a reason such as "you are willing to drop some haste, despite it being the better stat in order to not be underperforming on certain encounters where crit is more valueable", that would be totally reasonable.

I am obviously assuming that we are talking about the combined weights of sims when discussing which stat is better. Otherwise it would be no point.

The value of stats are not static, they change with every point of stat you get, that's the reason why Sims with your current gear can give the best information about your stat values.

Since crit and haste interact with each other for our Insanity generation (Hello AS) it makes sense to me that you should have a bit of crit.
But generally speaking haste is worth more then crit. At any ilvl.

So I would have said "Yes, if you an absurd high amount of haste and no crit, it would be better to get more crit",
eg. the jump from 5->10% crit will double the amount of Insanity from AS, which should be net more dps then increasing haste from 100 to 105%.

[Khorneflake]

If "... haste is better. Period." there is no point where you'd prefer A:1200 haste+600 crit over B:1800 haste. If you at any gear level prefer A, that implies that the marginal value of crit is > than the marginal value of haste at the given gear level. It's a contradiction, as it can be rewritten to: "Haste is alwyas better, but if you have the option, get crit because it's better."

Either crit is better until you get w/e %, it's better to keep them at certain ratios or haste is always better.

Also, saying stuff like "crit is always going to be benefitial" means nothing. You can say the same thing about versatility and I'd get haste/haste over haste/versa any day.

The statement was "it's actually better to get haste/crit pieces" [better than haste only] and this cannot be true if haste is always >crit.
The reason I posted was that the same poster said "At no realistic point does crit pass it [haste], ever." and it seems misleading to say both these things, especially with such authority. I don't suggest that you shouldn't get some crit, I'm just questioning the logic behind these answers posted.

Part in part both of these statements are true pre-raid unless you have the belt, there is no point stacking pure haste and no crit without it as it leaves you insanity starved and you will not get the absolute full benefit of StM (100 stacks) without some serious concentration.

More haste increases our dot ticks which in turn create more chances for AS insanity generation, yes haste is better due to the benefit of shorter GCD's and the obvious raw damage of faster ticking dots, haste is good, but without the belt we will be relying on our AS heavily to generate the insanity as opposed to pooling MB's and crit is a must in order to multiply our crit chances. Without it, we cannot make the most of our haste in VF and starve ourselves (see how these work in tandem?).

On the flip side, crit should never surpass haste as mathematically we will obtain more AS from Haste>Crit due to the multiplicative nature of VF with haste, and, faster cast speeds/lower GCD's. Gear stats allow for 60-70% ish haste against 30-40% crit on pieces, in that sense, we would not be looking for;

Haste 400
crit 600

we want

haste 600
crit 400

Once we have the belt we can consider mastery over crit as we will no longer care about AS as much, and the raw scaling of the dot/VB damage with our haste will make us DPS machines.

Hope this... helps.

[MissAnonymous]

Alternatively, a good way to look at it is if you have two pieces of the same item level and one is Haste Haste and another is Crit Mastery, there is no scenario where the Crit Mastery will surpass the Haste Haste unless you have hit that 100% Haste soft cap.

If you are wanting to run AS, then your Crit goal is roughly 25%. If you're below that threshold, then stick with San'layn.

But in no scenario are you going to value Crit over Haste as a secondary stat. You're always going to want a Haste/Crit piece, never a Crit/Crit piece, and Haste/Haste pieces are fine. That's what we mean by it never surpasses.

[Bad Management]

I really hate the new loot system, 3 resets and I've yet to get a single piece I'd even consider good... Zero trinkets, just that shitty crit + proc one from world quest, and another shitty stat stick.
Anyway, at which crit levels should you switch to AS?
Is it really as high as 25%?

[Rolex Snob]

No, that's not what he's saying. He's saying haste is better. Period.

But if you have to choose between Haste Haste Haste and Haste Haste Crit, then having some Crit is always going to be beneficial. I believe the last number I saw tossed around was about 25% Crit.

So you want infinite amount of Haste and about 25% Crit. Nowhere in that statement is it being said that Crit is better.

It seems you're confusing yourself and trying to look smarter than you actually are.

What you're saying is that haste alone is better than crit alone but haste + crit is better than haste + haste.

[Djriff]

I really hate the new loot system, 3 resets and I've yet to get a single piece I'd even consider good... Zero trinkets, just that shitty crit + proc one from world quest, and another shitty stat stick.
Anyway, at which crit levels should you switch to AS?
Is it really as high as 25%?

You can be around 20% and be fine.

[Fascinate]

I think san'layn is the best for 5 mans, VT is nearly 40% of my damage usually.

[Djriff]

I think san'layn is the best for 5 mans, VT is nearly 40% of my damage usually.

It depends on your gear honestly. I've tried it with San'layn and had better results with AS.

[Fascinate]

Well im talking overall damage (faster dungeons) san'layn came way out on top for me. I can do over 300k on trash packs with it (obviously nothing compared to the real DPS specs, but it helps).

[Djriff]

Well im talking overall damage (faster dungeons) san'layn came way out on top for me. I can do over 300k on trash packs with it (obviously nothing compared to the real DPS specs, but it helps).

That's fair.

Since we're trash tier on AoE, I mainly focus on boss damage since I know that's where i'll provide the most usefulness. I'm still getting 200k+ on trash and keeping up on 3-4 mobs.

[Kilee25]

Twintop did 100+ sims and posted a link to all of them. The current stat priorities take into account virtually every single talent/encounter type/fight length. It was done using the best gear in EN and then all the weights were averaged out.

With all due respect to Twintop, I stand by my statement. Don't make assumptions. Check it yourself, if you can. Twintop did next to nothing last expac at the dungeon gear level and with CoP. His focus was on prepping for raids. It's possible he looked deeper into "non raid" scenarios and "non raid" talent setups and play styles, but like I said, don't assume. I'm pretty sure he would tell you the same thing, actually, based on what I know of him.

[GT4]

Well im talking overall damage (faster dungeons) san'layn came way out on top for me. I can do over 300k on trash packs with it (obviously nothing compared to the real DPS specs, but it helps).

You can do >300k on trash with AS as well. You'll want to prioritize SWP over VT though so you get as many procs and as much void form uptime as possible.

Having said that, either should be fine with currently available gear and no S2M.

By the way, for single target sims are giving me higher DPS with AS over San'layn starting at as low as 15% crit for LotV.

[Djriff]

With all due respect to Twintop, I stand by my statement. Don't make assumptions. Check it yourself, if you can. Twintop did next to nothing last expac at the dungeon gear level and with CoP. His focus was on prepping for raids. It's possible he looked deeper into "non raid" scenarios and "non raid" talent setups and play styles, but like I said, don't assume. I'm pretty sure he would tell you the same thing, actually, based on what I know of him.

Dungeons didn't matter last xpac, so why would anyone bother for content that people outgeared when it dropped?

He did a pretty through analysis in my opinion, see here

[Kilee25]

I've seen it. I'm not criticizing it. I'm simply saying don't assume he is perfect, and don't automatically dismiss everyone who questions how spriests stats work if it doesn't come to the same conclusions. If you're curious how edge-case levels of haste work, explore it with a fresh perspective. There's no guarantee TT or anyone else looked into that. You may discover something new that you didn't know before.

Also thanks for insinuating everything I TCed last expac didn't matter...

[Jullyx]

I'm sure you don't need confirmation, as you know a lot of people appreciated your CoP TC Kilee. -> But thank you anyway (again).

I do agree with what you are saying though. Question and query everything. Don't be a sheep. It's so typical in internet communities that something gets said and is instantly taken as fact and you get ridiculed for opposing it. I'm not referencing anything in this thread btw.

[Djriff]

I've seen it. I'm not criticizing it. I'm simply saying don't assume he is perfect, and don't automatically dismiss everyone who questions how spriests stats work if it doesn't come to the same conclusions. If you're curious how edge-case levels of haste work, explore it with a fresh perspective. There's no guarantee TT or anyone else looked into that. You may discover something new that you didn't know before.

I agree, we should question it, and I have, at least personally. I find my TC matching up.

As for edge-case levels of haste? Care to elaborate?

Also thanks for insinuating everything I TCed last expac didn't matter...

Not what I meant, my apologies.

[Kilee25]

As for edge-case levels of haste? Care to elaborate?

Some of its been said already, but AS needs a certain level of crit and haste together to function as a talent. They scale each other, so stacking just haste probably wrecks any synergy with that talent. You will probably see a situation where the two stats "compete" with each other for dominance at low and high ends of the spectrum.

In short, stack a bunch of haste and crit will rise above it in value (until you reach more of a balance). It's probably a situation where there's a "range" of acceptable haste/crit ratios, for which you wouldn't want to fall under. This is assuming you stick with AS as a talent, of course.

If I were poking around with the OP's question in SimC that is probably what I would look for initially.

[Djriff]

How would you determine that ratio out of curiosity?

To me once you reach 25% crit you can basically ignore it in favor of haste as long as you don't fall below that 25% crit. I'll need to calculate different haste tick points with SW: P and VT to be sure of this though.

Then again, haste is valuable by itself due to Voidform be multiplicative of your base haste.

[Kilee25]

I believe it's something like a "reforge plot" . Take several sets of gear at varying haste levels and do a plot against crit to see how dps is affected.

[highpriestgarsha]

If "... haste is better. Period." there is no point where you'd prefer A:1200 haste+600 crit over B:1800 haste. If you at any gear level prefer A, that implies that the marginal value of crit is > than the marginal value of haste at the given gear level. It's a contradiction, as it can be rewritten to: "Haste is alwyas better, but if you have the option, get crit because it's better."

Either crit is better until you get w/e %, it's better to keep them at certain ratios or haste is always better.

Also, saying stuff like "crit is always going to be benefitial" means nothing. You can say the same thing about versatility and I'd get haste/haste over haste/versa any day.

The statement was "it's actually better to get haste/crit pieces" [better than haste only] and this cannot be true if haste is always >crit.
The reason I posted was that the same poster said "At no realistic point does crit pass it [haste], ever." and it seems misleading to say both these things, especially with such authority. I don't suggest that you shouldn't get some crit, I'm just questioning the logic behind these answers posted.

You're either A.) trolling, or B.) completely missing the ball. What he is saying is that 10k crit is AWFUL if compared to 10k haste instead, but having haste/crit gear with haste as the priority gives consistent dps. Youre failing to see what crit does to your dps. That haste is a CONSTANT influx, where crit is PERCENTAGE BASED and benefits from the effects of haste. If you don't understand, don't stack it. Play how you want. Everybody is right with the build they find fun.