Fury Stat Primer

[T1berius]

what fights have longer execute phases?

[Archimtiros]

But outside of Execute range I'd feel way weaker, I'd much rather go for more consistent damage than bursty damage at <20%.

That's your prerogative, but that doesn't make it better, which is the subject of this thread and that post.

[Deleted]

when raiding starts im guessing fury will get a buff atleast i hope it does. still thanks for your work pal.

[Archimtiros]

when raiding starts im guessing fury will get a buff atleast i hope it does. still thanks for your work pal.

Arms is hands down stronger than Fury for ST/Cleave. That hasn't changed, and it won't without more drastic measures.

Fury excels at burst multi-target however, which the raids really do have a good amount of, giving them the potential to perform quite well. There are two problems however, which limit that potential:

1. Fury doesn't scale anywhere near as well as Arms.
This is actually a fairly simple problem, the issue is that it's difficult to make Fury scale better in the single target department without making even stronger in AoE, which would be excessive.

2. Fury gets weaker as progression/farm continues.
This is a more notable problem, specifically with regards to two areas -

a) As damage scales up, AoE packs/adds die faster, in turn making those specs which perform well there weaker as a result. While Odyn's Fury does a significant amount of damage immediately, it's damage will fall off considerably once targets die before the DoT has time to take effect.

b) Juggernaut, already a flawed mechanic, also becomes weaker as the target dies faster. A fight which lasts 7:30 (450s) may have ~90s of Execute phase, but once damage inflation from farm reduces that fight to 5m (300s), you're cut down to ~60s of Execute time. That makes a huge difference in terms of Juggernaut stacks and can lead to a notable reduction in damage. On shorter fights, this could potentially go to the point where we simply spec Carnage and don't even bother Executing anymore - effectively nullifying a third of our artifact tree.

The first (a) isn't a problem inherent only to Fury Warriors, any class/spec which is built around AoE suffers similar fates, and there's no real fix for it. The second (b) is the major reason why I've been pushing to change Juggernaut to a significantly lower stack count at a higher base effect. It would allow the Warrior to cap stacks early and then simply maintain the buff for whatever length of time is needed, effectively keeping the ability relevant for shorter duration fights. It would probably make for easier tuning as well, since the ability wouldn't turn into a runaway gun on any abnormally long fights, and it would make recovery much more forgiving, were the player to ever drop stacks for some reason, whether the fault of mechanics or their own.

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Just to reiterate, the nature of really close stat weights means you will occasionally see some weird stuff happen. To illustrate:


Haste remains the better stat, but you can see that due to some wonky thresholds, I actually lose a small amount of DPS by changing from Crit to Haste, although that quickly corrects itself. Keep this in mind if you're the type of player that likes to run a sim after every individual change of gear, and make sure you do the appropriate research.

[Staubz]

im guessing hidden satyr is still the way to go, and deadly grace still better than old war?

[Zakkar]

Right now I just don't use furious slash at all pretty much, I find whirlwind to be an overall better filler, especially with wrecking ball, would you agree?

[Deleted]

Right now I just don't use furious slash at all pretty much, I find whirlwind to be an overall better filler, especially with wrecking ball, would you agree?

On a ST situation without Wrecking ball procs, no.

[Archimtiros]

Right now I just don't use furious slash at all pretty much, I find whirlwind to be an overall better filler, especially with wrecking ball, would you agree?

It's more direct damage, but worse for the rotation. If you don't have a Wrecking Ball proc, you shouldn't be using Whirlwind on single target.

The only exception is if you know that your next Bloodthirst is going to be following Battle Cry for an automatic crit, thereby wasting the buff, but this is such a trivial example of min/maxing I don't even do it myself.

[T1berius]

You should be using an average of 2 fs per bt actually (way more without carnage)

generally it will go bt (enrage) rb fs before enrage falls off (16% haste) then you go through again bt and you're about 70 rage for rampage however you have a stack from fs if you didn't crit but if you did you're still enraged so you rb fs before rampage, then you're enraged again but bt is off cd, so you fs then rb then bt with the two fs stacks, and this is generally what will happen over and over throughout the fight if you always enrage off of bt

before legion not using fs was okayish, you had enough haste and crit to almost never not enrage

but now, doing the damage abilites without enrage up is a pretty big dps loss, and more so is an enrage uptime loss

right now we should be trying out best to maximize enrage uptime, not get as many rampages used

[Archimtiros]

You should be using an average of 2 fs per bt actually (way more without carnage)

No you really shouldn't be using 2 FS per BT, with or without Carnage. If you're not using Inner Rage you may simply due to having no better buttons to use outside of Enrage, but if you're not using Inner Rage, you've already crippled your DPS.

generally it will go bt (enrage) rb fs before enrage falls off (16% haste) then you go through again bt and you're about 70 rage for rampage however you have a stack from fs if you didn't crit but if you did you're still enraged so you rb fs before rampage, then you're enraged again but bt is off cd, so you fs then rb then bt with the two fs stacks, and this is generally what will happen over and over throughout the fight if you always enrage off of bt

It's not worth delaying other abilities to maintain TfB stacks. The only time you'll use FS is if BT/RB are on cooldown, Rampage is available and you are Enraged, or Rampage is not up and you are not Enraged.

[T1berius]

I don't think you understood my post actually. You don't go bt rb fs fs, that won't fit in an enrage window for one, but you can fit two stacks of taste for blood per bt because of how much rage you generate and enrage uptime

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e-done&fight=3


here's a bunch of examples where it works and where i do much better dps than simply using rampage on cd or bt on cd


i got up two 3 stacks a few times in fact when i didn't enrage from bt

[Archimtiros]

I don't think you understood my post actually. You don't go bt rb fs fs, that won't fit in an enrage window for one, but you can fit towo stacks of taste for blood per bt because of how much rage you generate and enrage uptime

I understood it, which is why I addressed it.

You will never fit more than 2 GCDs in between BT. With Inner Rage, one of those will always be RB. That leaves you with one GCD before Bloodthirst is back up wherein you can use FS, but as I said above, it's never worth delaying other abilities for FS.

If FS's direct damage weren't terrible (half BT, 1/4 Inner Rage), then it may be worth delaying BT a GCD to prioritize FS inside Enrage, but it isn't and so it is not.

[T1berius]

No you really shouldn't be using 2 FS per BT, with or without Carnage. If you're not using Inner Rage you may simply due to having no better buttons to use outside of Enrage, but if you're not using Inner Rage, you've already crippled your DPS.



It's not worth delaying other abilities to maintain TfB stacks. The only time you'll use FS is if BT/RB are on cooldown, Rampage is available and you are Enraged, or Rampage is not up and you are not Enraged.

Yes, if you do the rotation correctly, you should be able to get two fs in between the first bt, the rampage, and the next bt, as you will be enraged the whole time

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so you're using bt inside of enrage windows? that seems like a good way to not get enraged by bt

[Archimtiros]

Yes, if you do the rotation correctly, you should be able to get two fs in between the first bt, the rampage, and the next bt, as you will be enraged the whole time

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so you're using bt inside of enrage windows? that seems like a good way to not get enraged by bt

See below.

BT critting during Enrage will overwrite the buff, effectively refreshing the duration. While this does waste some Enrage uptime, the rage generate benefits, and direct damage benefits of Bloodthirst over FS outweigh the increased chance to crit with BT.

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In practice your rotation will go something like this (with Carnage and not including Charge, Battle Cry, RotV, WB, or Sudden Death)

BT - RB - FS - BT - RB - FS - BT.

Somewhere between the 2nd and third BT cycle, depending on Enrage proc, you'll have enough rage for Rampage. Once that happens, you'll continue the normal cycle until either Enrage falls off or rage hits the cap (100). Once either of these things happen, you'll use Enrage and return to the basic rotation.

I extensively tested delaying BT inside Enrage and instead using FS to help ensure the following BT crits, but it always comes out a loss. Why? Two reasons:
1. Because FS deals a pathetic amount of damage.
2. Because FS additional chance to crit is low enough that it doesn't make up for simply using BT more over the course of the fight. Using BT once every 3 GCD is an average of 3.33 RPS, while delaying it to 4 GCDs is 2.5 RPS, or a 25% loss in rage generation from BT. While this may sound trivial, it adds up over the course of an encounter.

[T1berius]

Yeah, that's how I was running it before a few days ago, but for me using the extra fs during enrage has encreased both the enrage uptime and damage total I do.


I'll run my own sims and do some more practicing to see what is better but you're probably right in the long run, and what i've seen might just be confirmation bias

[Archimtiros]

Yeah, that's how I was running it before a few days ago, but for me using the extra fs during enrage has encreased both the enrage uptime and damage total I do.

I'll run my own sims and do some more practicing to see what is better but you're probably right in the long run, and what i've seen might just be confirmation bias

I was trying it like that for a good while myself, because it does feel like that's how it should work. I was using FS inside Enrage and saving the buffed BT for when Enrage falls off, but in simulations it always comes out a loss simply due to how weak FS is and how important the extra rage generation is to getting back into Rampage and that guaranteed Enrage.

Keep in mind too that in a short fight, like that 47s Hymdall, you have a lot of room for a RNG to determine performance, making it really hard to draw an accurate comparison.

[Deleted]

With that Crit vs Mastery graph I still don't know if you're supposed to avoid having crit at all times

[Deleted]

Oooooooooooooooook, so after some more or less in depth reading of this we really going for this ? going for around 40-45% haste then mastery?

and i was kinda happy that i just need some ilvl upgrades on trinkets and would be kinda settled for raid at the 845ish item level with 22% haste 31% crit and 24% mastery

also how the hell should we get that much haste ? already got most of the items with haste crit mostly and could get around 25%ish or something like that but at least 15% more to get to 40% ? don't even know if we have so much rating on the 840-850 ilvl range items to meet that amount of haste, eh ?

so, just in case, for some of the hard headed and less gifted math ppls around here, mostly, i understood correctly right ? the new stat caps would be 40-45ish % haste then mastery then crit with versa at around same-ish importance right ???

p.s. quite an amazing work Archi, big GRATZ for all the work and thank you for the new info


p.p.s. rewriting with some finding here but that maybe confirmed my thought, did a quick gear gen on AMR and with the so called bis gear there, from their data base of items turned out that we could get around-ish 35% haste, so we kinda something short of the 40-45-50ish% haste cap right ? so if this is for real, what am i missing ?

[Archimtiros]

With that Crit vs Mastery graph I still don't know if you're supposed to avoid having crit at all times

They have a natural relationship. More (less) of one always makes more of the other better (worse). That said, given that there are other ways to trigger Enrage (Rampage), and other stats that affect Enrage uptime (Haste), Mastery tends to be the stronger stat. I wouldn't try to min/max it too much, because it's going to constantly shift.

This is both the nice and bad thing about having stats that are really close together, makes for easy gearing but they'll often change positions.

[Solex]

I'm sorry if this was addressed before or if it has if I can get the understanding behind it. So WB is better than Avatar? I would have thought that avatar would be way ahead because of the duration of the buff and the flat damage to all moves. Is that not the case?