Ask Mr. Robot Sims Credibility

[vndl]

How credible is Ask Mr. Robot? I'm a long time rogue who hasn't played since Cata. Back then we would use ShadowCraft religiously, but it ShadowCraft currently has bugs. From what I remember rogues didn't really use AMR back then.

But with the BiS in Bags, Upgrade Finder, etc Ask Mr. Robot is looking reaaaaaaaally promising. I'm just wondering if the simulations are credible. I know most rogues in Discord recommend SimulationCraft > AMR but it's super tedious to manually swap gear.

[Deleted]

I used asked mr robot
1. Recommended me to remove 845 Head for 840.
2. Simed with Simcraft set with 840 vs set with 845, 845 did more sim dps

[Sephiroso]

Did the 840 have a socket?

[Deleted]

no. ////////////////////////////

[Zoopercat]

@vndl It's really, really good for rogues. We also love shadowcraft, it's always been a great tool and I know they are working hard on it.
@Adasiek if you give me your character (and the 2 helms you are using, I can do a test for you). It's also possible our stat weights were generated using different talents or artifact progress than your character has. So you can get custom weights by using the simulator. Change the 'sim type' on the right from 'single run' to 'gearing strategy.'

Hit me up if you have any questions.

[vndl]

@vndl It's really, really good for rogues. We also love shadowcraft, it's always been a great tool and I know they are working hard on it.
@Adasiek if you give me your character (and the 2 helms you are using, I can do a test for you). It's also possible our stat weights were generated using different talents or artifact progress than your character has. So you can get custom weights by using the simulator. Change the 'sim type' on the right from 'single run' to 'gearing strategy.'

Hit me up if you have any questions.

Thanks for the response, Zooper! Are AMR sims based off of SimulationCraft or is it completely independent?

[Zoopercat]

It's completely independent. Our goal was to make the mechanics not just open source, but as readable as possible so that it's easy for people to verify. And then we also wanted all simulations to have web-reports so people can link them as discussion points or use as evidence of testing theories. And we built the whole thing to be super easy to use, very customizable, while having some really powerful features for theorycrafters.

Here's a crash course video if you're new to the simulator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZU4...LIWEa6&index=1

I hope that wasn't TOO marketingy - I just get very excited when people ask me questions. It's been a really fun project and most of the SimC people have been collaborating with us (and us with them) because we are all just inner geeks

[Notter]

AMR is very easy to use and has fantastic interface and features.
but i wouldn't recommend to use it right now to decide what gear to use.

the BIS list is not correct.
for example, it shows serpentrix egg as a very high value trinket, which from what i understand, it's not a good trinket.

when running the simulation i also got vary different result in DPS from simcraft.
with my gear i get:
AMR - 286815 DPS
SimCraft (latest nightly build) - 310504 DPS

that being said...
it doesn't prove that AMR is wrong or that SimCraft is right.
but from what i understand the consensus is that SimCraft's numbers are closer to reality.

[veloreum]

AMR is very easy to use and has fantastic interface and features.
but i wouldn't recommend to use it right now to decide what gear to use.

the BIS list is not correct.
for example, it shows serpentrix egg as a very high value trinket, which from what i understand, it's not a good trinket.

when running the simulation i also got vary different result in DPS from simcraft.
AMR - 286815 DPS
SimCraft (latest nightly build) - 310504 DPS

that being said...
it doesn't prove that AMR is wrong or that SimCraft is right.
but from what i understand the consensus is that SimCraft's numbers are closer to reality.

AMR actually says your DPS is 270,242 with a standard deviation of 19,320. Which means based on RNG, they estimate your DPS (with an error rate of .49%) to be between ~250,000 and ~290,000 on a purely Patchwerk style fight.

SimCraft does similar, but is less upfront about the potential range. SimC's upper and lower for Outlaw is 421k - 250k with a median of ~310k.

Understanding the differences between the two is important as is what it's trying to tell you. I wouldn't imagine either are "right" as there are numerous external factors they can only average out or can't account for (such as other players and their interactions or failures).

Either way, both are a good measure of potential. Take it for what it's worth.

[Zoopercat]

@Notter Rotations can also be different, and depending on what settings you are using, one might be using flasks, potions, the other might not. I think SimC defaults to a 300 second fight now (?) and ours has a 450 default (though it's easy to customize). It's actually not trivial to make the setup the same in both. I'm not saying you didn't match them (don't mean any offense). Without seeing your actual setup, it's hard for me to dig into it.

Your post was clear and informative, and fair. You said it does't prove one simulator is right, which is like, one of the most rational things I've read in a long time, ha.

But when people feel this 'consensus' when there haven't been any bugs that we've been able to find or that anyone has reported, and no flaws either, it's hard for me to track down WHY people are saying this. So if you have any insight, definitely hit me up.

Trinkets: Here's a simulation of the trinkets: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...3e8570901b9bfa
While the proc isn't great, it has a lot of agility on it which makes it climb the ranks a bit. Does that report not look right to you? And what are you comparing it to? Here's our current implementation of the trinket, so you can see how we've done it, and what data we're still trying to verify: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory...w&version=live

One thing I'm excited for is with raids opening up, and our boss scripts that will be coming out soon, I'll be able to do reality checks on every class when comparing to logs. So stay tuned as we watch how that develops and fine-tune even further from there.

[Deleted]

@Zoopercat
Recommended by AMR 283415 DPS in sims

$42;EU;Burning Legion;Addasiek;Dark Tribe;9;2;110;5:740,4:630;2;.s1;25;1133111;;;;.s2;26;1313222;1052,2,3,3,1,2,1,1,1,282;1,1, 1,3,3,3,3,3,3,1;136718b1497b1826b3337,137472b1492b1726b3337,133682b1492b1727b1813;.s3;27;2 133121;;;;.q1;128869s17;1s16b741x137317y3951z-3905;4751s9b756b229b1611;150s15b-1840b230b81b1528;478s2b-1824b1825b95;32s8b-1920b1825b95;172s3b-1935b230b1609;71s12b-1834b225b1609;2s11b-1844b235b81b5e5423;1236s10b-341b235b106b1615;2s7b-1956b208b133b1615;981s6b-1926b225b86;682s1b-316b230b1609;1644s5b-1834b225b86;4s14b-1210b899b1834b96;38s13b-2825b895b1834b61;.q2;128872s16b742x136718y754z-3790;4749s9b755b229b1611;150s15b-1840b230b81b1528;422s8b-1824b1825b60;56s2b-1885b1825b95;124s5b-1930b225b86;80s3b-316b230b1609;71s12b-1834b225b1609;2s11b-1844b235b81b5e5423;26s17;1212s7b-341b208b133b1615;977s10b-1926b225b86;4s6b-311b225b86;2330s14b-1210b899b1834b96;38s13b-2825b895b1834b61;629s1b-13b1;.q3;128476s16b743x140414z863;3s17;5142s9b754b229b1611;150s15b-1840b230b81b1528;478s2b-1824b1825b95;32s8b-1920b1825b95;172s3b-1935b230b1609;71s12b-1834b225b1609;2s11b-1844b235b81b5e5423;1236s10b-341b235b106b1615;2s7b-1956b208b133b1615;981s6b-1926b225b86;682s1b-316b230b1609;1644s5b-1834b225b86;4s14b-1210b899b1834b96;38s13b-2825b895b1834b61;.r;1269:3,1337:3,1341:3,1375:3,1387:0,1376:0,1435:3,1388:4,1270:3;.inv;62 18;730;13867;35513;11;17910;0;0;19973;14962;509;867;1761;0;0;1267;1936;3769;1709v110b1682b 130;297b-310b225b86;2825;313;3;2;4034b-1070x140414z863;394b-2x-3960y3951z-3905;1303;2;2;3438b751b235b86;624b-311b225b86;42b-301b1825b95;159b-1935b229b1611;8b-3294b1449b235b86;7b-321b235b86;1305b-341b204b137b1615;2b-1956b241b100b1615;0b-1956b235b106b1615;836;188;550b-1936b235b86;91b-316b230b1609;684;24;876;60b-1834b225b86;357;156;2;2;0;0;0;151b1570b2;2b-1b2;2b-2b2;3b-3b2;68;17;361;1002;79b-1888b1839b61;78;254;47$

With higher ilevel head 286554 DPS in sims

$42;EU;Burning Legion;Addasiek;Dark Tribe;9;2;110;5:740,4:630;2;.s1;25;1133111;;;;.s2;26;1313222;1052,2,3,3,1,2,1,1,1,282;1,1, 1,3,3,3,3,3,3,1;136718b1497b1826b3337,137472b1492b1726b3337,133682b1492b1727b1813;.s3;27;2 133121;;;;.q1;128869s17;1s16b741x137317y3951z-3905;4751s9b756b229b1611;150s15b-1840b230b81b1528;478s2b-1824b1825b95;32s8b-1920b1825b95;172s3b-1935b230b1609;71s12b-1834b225b1609;2s11b-1844b235b81b5e5423;1236s10b-341b235b106b1615;2s7b-1956b208b133b1615;981s6b-1926b225b86;682s1b-316b230b1609;1644s5b-1834b225b86;4s14b-1210b899b1834b96;38s13b-2825b895b1834b61;.q2;128872s16b742x136718y754z-3790;4749s9b755b229b1611;150s15b-1840b230b81b1528;422s8b-1824b1825b60;56s2b-1885b1825b95;124s5b-1930b225b86;80s3b-316b230b1609;71s12b-1834b225b1609;2s11b-1844b235b81b5e5423;26s17;1212s7b-341b208b133b1615;977s10b-1926b225b86;4s6b-311b225b86;682s1b-316b230b1609;1648s14b-2733b899b1834b96;38s13b-2825b895b1834b61;.q3;128476s16b743x140414z863;3s17;5142s9b754b229b1611;150s15b-1840b230b81b1528;478s2b-1824b1825b95;32s8b-1920b1825b95;172s3b-1935b230b1609;71s12b-1834b225b1609;2s11b-1844b235b81b5e5423;1236s10b-341b235b106b1615;2s7b-1956b208b133b1615;981s6b-1926b225b86;682s1b-316b230b1609;1644s5b-1834b225b86;4s14b-1210b899b1834b96;38s13b-2825b895b1834b61;.r;1269:3,1337:3,1341:3,1375:3,1387:0,1376:0,1435:3,1388:4,1270:3;.inv;62 18;730;13867;35513;11;17910;0;0;19973;14962;509;867;1761;0;0;1267;1936;3769;1709v110b1682b 130;297b-310b225b86;2825;313;3;2;4034b-1070x140414z863;394b-2x-3960y3951z-3905;1303;2;2;3438b751b235b86;624b-311b225b86;42b-301b1825b95;159b-1935b229b1611;8b-3294b1449b235b86;7b-321b235b86;1305b-341b204b137b1615;2b-1956b241b100b1615;0b-1956b235b106b1615;836;188;550b-1936b235b86;775;24;876;60b-311b225b86;357;156;2;2;0;0;0;151b1570b2;2b-1b2;1b-2b1;1b-1b2;3b-3b2;68;17;361;1002;79b-1888b1839b61;78;254;47$

Choosen semi-random by me 288095 dps

$42;EU;Burning Legion;Addasiek;Dark Tribe;9;2;110;5:740,4:630;2;.s1;25;1133111;;;;.s2;26;1313222;1052,2,3,3,1,2,1,1,1,282;1,1, 1,3,3,3,3,3,3,1;136718b1497b1826b3337,137472b1492b1726b3337,133682b1492b1727b1813;.s3;27;2 133121;;;;.q1;128869s17;1s16b741x137317y3951z-3905;4751s9b756b229b1611;150s15b-1840b230b81b1528;478s2b-1824b1825b95;32s8b-1920b1825b95;172s3b-1935b230b1609;71s12b-1834b225b1609;2s11b-1844b235b81b5e5423;1236s10b-341b235b106b1615;2s7b-1956b208b133b1615;981s6b-1926b225b86;682s1b-316b230b1609;1644s5b-1834b225b86;4s14b-1210b899b1834b96;38s13b-2825b895b1834b61;.q2;121299s6b1502b225b86;7573s16b-1071x136718y754z-3790;4749s9b755b229b1611;150s15b-1840b230b81b1528;422s8b-1824b1825b60;56s2b-1885b1825b95;191s1b-1935b229b1611;13s3b-1840b230b1609;71s12b-1834b225b1609;2s11b-1844b235b81b5e5423;26s17;1210s10b-341b235b106b1615;2s7b-1956b208b133b1615;3307s5b-1926b225b86;4s14b-1210b899b1834b96;38s13b-2825b895b1834b61;.q3;128476s16b743x140414z863;3s17;5142s9b754b229b1611;150s15b-1840b230b81b1528;478s2b-1824b1825b95;32s8b-1920b1825b95;172s3b-1935b230b1609;71s12b-1834b225b1609;2s11b-1844b235b81b5e5423;1236s10b-341b235b106b1615;2s7b-1956b208b133b1615;981s6b-1926b225b86;682s1b-316b230b1609;1644s5b-1834b225b86;4s14b-1210b899b1834b96;38s13b-2825b895b1834b61;.r;1269:3,1337:3,1341:3,1375:3,1387:0,1376:0,1435:3,1388:4,1270:3;.inv;62 18;730;13867;35513;11;17910;0;0;19973;14962;509;867;1761;0;0;1267;1936;3769;1709v110b1682b 130;3122;313;3;2;4034b-1069x140414z863;394b-2x-3960y3951z-3905;1303;2;2;3438b751b235b86;624b-311b225b86;42b-301b1825b95;92b-1930b225b86;75b-1770b1449b235b86;7b-321b235b86;1305b-341b204b137b1615;2b-1956b241b100b1615;836;143b-1926b225b86;4b-311b225b86;41;550b-321b235b86;91b-316b230b1609;684;24;876;417;156;2;2;0;0;0;151b47b2;2b-1b2;1b-2b1;1b-1b2;3b-3b2;68;17;361;1002;79b-1888b1839b61;78;254;47$

[Ilmyr]

the BIS list is not correct.
for example, it shows serpentrix egg as a very high value trinket, which from what i understand, it's not a good trinket.

Why is it "not a good" trinket? From my experience it's a very good trinket with good dmg share. I would say it's a lot better than any raw Agility+Versatility trinket. Six-Feathered is the best trinket no doubt. Would you please elaborate?

[Deleted]

Are the WQ stat trinkets on the simulator. I at least only noticed devilsaurs bite, but not the agi and random stat trinkets. The BRH trinket (Ember of Nullification) is pretty high on the list, but can't see the agi/vers wq ones which at ilvl 835+ has more agi and versa. Just wondering as AMR tells me to switch my 835 agi/versa wq trinket to serpentrix egg.

[Zoopercat]

@umppa yeah they are all there, I just didn't select them all. IF you look at the gear ranking lists, everything will be there.

[Mysta]

Why is it "not a good" trinket? From my experience it's a very good trinket with good dmg share. I would say it's a lot better than any raw Agility+Versatility trinket. Six-Feathered is the best trinket no doubt. Would you please elaborate?

Heard it scales with the stats we don't prioritize(and some hunter pet stuff). I dropped it for agi/vers trinket and my dps went up a pretty large amount.

[vndl]

I'm not too sure about this Best in Bags thing, man. I know Outlaw's ideal stat-weight is Vers->Crit, but obviously stat weights are always custom/different for everyone. Too much Vers = bad.

I have a ton of crafted Dreadleather waiting to be upgraded and I'm trying to find the perfect combination (Aurora/Feverflare/Adaptable/Quickblade/etc). Ran it through Best in Bags and it's telling me to straight up stack Versatility.

When I sim, it's unsurprisingly much lower than the gear set I had in mind (with more balanced secondary stat itemization) by a good 15-20k DPS.

[Sephiroso]

I'm not too sure about this Best in Bags thing, man. I know Outlaw's ideal stat-weight is Vers->Crit, but obviously stat weights are always custom/different for everyone. Too much Vers = bad.

I have a ton of crafted Dreadleather waiting to be upgraded and I'm trying to find the perfect combination (Aurora/Feverflare/Adaptable/Quickblade/etc). Ran it through Best in Bags and it's telling me to straight up stack Versatility.

When I sim, it's unsurprisingly much lower than the gear set I had in mind (with more balanced secondary stat itemization) by a good 15-20k DPS.

Because you don't know how to input custom stat weights into amr so it works for you and not against you?

[Zoopercat]

@vndl - you can edit the weights. To do that, click the green 'view/edit' button just above the gearing strategy section, which is about in the middle of the character menu bar

You can also run custom weights for your character which will also simulate all trinkets, legendaries, relics and anything else with a proc. To do that, go to the simulator and load your character: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/run

Then change the 'sim type' on the right from 'single run' to 'gearing strategy.' Click the' simulate button and when it's done, you'll have new weights and trinket rankings, just for you. Click the 'save and use' button on the report and it will automatically import into your character page to use for gear ranked lists, BiS, BiB, the upgrade finder, and so on.

[vndl]

Update: Ended up chasing Zooper on the AMR Discord and she walked me through the process. Once I finally got it to work.. holy crap! Basically I still simmed my stat weights on SimC, took those figures and plugged it into the Gear Strategy, and clicked Best in Bags. Then I double-checked SimC for some insurance and the numbers were much higher than expected.

Used the gear and parsed a top 10 ranking. I think it's worth subscribing to for $1/mo for the simple fact of not having to spend hours swapping gear in and out. Basically takes the guess work out.

But in order for this to work AMR theorycrafters have to be on point - so PLEASE keep the accuracy/quality up (at least for rogues hehe).

[Axaion]

it still seems to disagree with simcraft, with simcraft running 250k iterations

both left at default so not sure whats going on there still