Talent choices for Emerald Nightmare (unholy)

[friedmudkipz]

Had to find the password for my ancient-ass account just so I could jump in here and dispel some of these delusions.

First of all castigator is way ahead of anything else in its tier. It by far scales the best with gear even. In fact, it scales so well, that once you approach about 32% crit, bursting soars overtakes all will serve on single target.

In the second row of talents, pestulent pustules is the only competitor. Done.

Infected claw is easily the best in tier 90. Not only is it the best of single target, but it props from your pet's DT claw replacement. This gives you wounds on multiple targets to pop with d&d + ss spam. I'm currently roflstomping everyone else on any sort of burst aoe. Easy 7 digits of dps.

For Tier 100, take soul reaper if you aren't smart enough to plan ahead for dark arbiter. A good example of a good time to take dark arbiter ills for ilgynoth, when you blow your load on the heart. I honestly think there isn't really any other place to use DA in EN.

Posted from my phone, so apologies for any awkward autocorrects.

I was sitting at 37-39% crit for EN this week and AWS outperformed BS consistently on single target. Same deal for other dk in my run (swapping BS -> AWS netted him a ST dps increase). Math comparing the two is pretty easy and unambiguous too.

[Deleted]

Hello everyone,

We just finished HC EN and I've been messing around with every single talent combination so far, but I'm not really satisfied overall. So far, I found PP just so so so good since it prevents rune starvation so I've been very torn about taking Epidemic. Tbh I'm not sure wtf to think about Epidemic... it bloats numbers so much, but I don't find it that good... for eye and dragon fight (healing spirits) it did massive damage, otherwise it's just crap (for mythic+ I can't even tell if it's worth it or not) since PP is just so good at keeping runes flowing.

AWS vs BS is another thing. I'm more inclined to think that BS outperforms AWS, but some people say that it's better on ST... I'm pretty sure that depends on the % crit you have. I'd love to think that BS competes with AWS since then I can finally say bye to Epidemic and just keep BS for both ST and AOE... since AWS + PP is pretty bad for any cleave/aoe fights.

Lastly, SI vs necrosis vs IC... frankly I believe IC should work better with BS/PP, but the amount of FW that the pet applies is pretty weak compared to a near 100% uptime on DT with SI. I haven't tried necrosis at all, but everyone is stating that it is the supreme ST talent.... however, the uptime on DT seems too legit to pass.

Since I have no legendaries (if you get bracers -> go UF right?)... should I simply stick to BS PP SI SR for both AOE and ST? I usually tend to stick to one talent choice and optimize my play style to that particular choice.

Thanks,

[raionyx]

AWS is great for pure ST damage. That means on neth and ursoc. For The rest of the fights in EN, bursting sores is the way to go. Haven't used infected claws as much but I do believe that shadow infusion is the superior talent for both ST and aoe. Il'lynoth is actually more of a ST fight since it is mostly about add single target priority and the ST eye burn phases. Taking ebon Fever simply wouldn't be worth it. I take bursting sores and epidemic for the blob cleave. This is the only fight in the entire raid where I take epidemic. Damn I wish pestilent pustules was baseline... I have way more downtime when specc'd into Epi instead of pp.

Theoretically, yeah, sure, AWS sounds better on paper. Bursting Sores comes out on top though, even at low levels of Mastery, and even on Single targets. I consistently do more damage with BS as opposed to AWS even on stock single target like Nythendra and Ursoc, and consistently outdamage every single Unholy DK I see using AWS.

Check your Logs. The damage you gain from AWS will never outweigh the 50% bonus to EVERY wound proc, plus the 30k+ extra damage on your target from each proc., especially hitting an average of 27k per attack. How many Wounds are you bursting during a fight? I bet it's a lot less if you're running Shadow Infusion. The gameplay just isn't there. Your pet's damage doesn't warrant Shadow Infusion anymore. Wounds are where it's at, and pigeonholing yourself into burning runes on extra Festering Strike to generate wounds limits your ability to chain Scourge Strikes, constrains optimal use of Scourge of Worlds, and stilts your ability to cast 8-stack Apocalypse at the pull, unless you're fairly lucky.

I swap Bursting Sores for Ebon Fever on Il'gynoth to control my cleave. That way I'm not just passive-cleaving the Nightmare Ichor while I do my normal rotation, and causing Ichor to explode away from the Eye, delaying Heart phase, and forcing more add phases. Padding meters with Epidemic damage looks cool... and does nothing to really help you with the really important part of the boss; murdering the Heart. Epidemic is useless for this key section of the fight, compared to PP.

So, sure; if one wants to be a meter padding scrub, one could grab Epidemic. Just know I'm laughing in Heart phase while I wreck overall damage done.

[Deleted]

Check your Logs. The damage you gain from AWS will never outweigh the 50% bonus to EVERY wound proc, plus the 30k+ extra damage on your target from each proc., especially hitting an average of 27k per attack. How many Wounds are you bursting during a fight? I bet it's a lot less if you're running Shadow Infusion. The gameplay just isn't there. Your pet's damage doesn't warrant Shadow Infusion anymore. Wounds are where it's at, and pigeonholing yourself into burning runes on extra Festering Strike to generate wounds limits your ability to chain Scourge Strikes, constrains optimal use of Scourge of Worlds, and stilts your ability to cast 8-stack Apocalypse at the pull, unless you're fairly lucky.

So you're using IC instead of SI?

Also, is the belcher better than the ghoul for a dps POV.

[Piz813]

I been running with necrosis on everything last few days. Love it. Necrosis all day

Skulker does a ton of damage and scales with stats so he's pretty good on select fights

[0verdose]

Theoretically, yeah, sure, AWS sounds better on paper. Bursting Sores comes out on top though, even at low levels of Mastery, and even on Single targets. I consistently do more damage with BS as opposed to AWS even on stock single target like Nythendra and Ursoc, and consistently outdamage every single Unholy DK I see using AWS.

Check your Logs. The damage you gain from AWS will never outweigh the 50% bonus to EVERY wound proc, plus the 30k+ extra damage on your target from each proc., especially hitting an average of 27k per attack. How many Wounds are you bursting during a fight? I bet it's a lot less if you're running Shadow Infusion. The gameplay just isn't there. Your pet's damage doesn't warrant Shadow Infusion anymore. Wounds are where it's at, and pigeonholing yourself into burning runes on extra Festering Strike to generate wounds limits your ability to chain Scourge Strikes, constrains optimal use of Scourge of Worlds, and stilts your ability to cast 8-stack Apocalypse at the pull, unless you're fairly lucky.

I swap Bursting Sores for Ebon Fever on Il'gynoth to control my cleave. That way I'm not just passive-cleaving the Nightmare Ichor while I do my normal rotation, and causing Ichor to explode away from the Eye, delaying Heart phase, and forcing more add phases. Padding meters with Epidemic damage looks cool... and does nothing to really help you with the really important part of the boss; murdering the Heart. Epidemic is useless for this key section of the fight, compared to PP.

So, sure; if one wants to be a meter padding scrub, one could grab Epidemic. Just know I'm laughing in Heart phase while I wreck overall damage done.

I only use aws on two fights. Ursoc and neth but ill try out bursting sores and ic on those fights next reset. on I always knew the synergy was there but always thought that SI was way more worth it. Been taking pp more and more even in open world because it just makes our rotation so much smoother, will try pp for eye fight to see how everything goes

[CausalXXLinkXx]

AWS / Necrosis on Nethendra/Ursoc. SI/BS everything else. PP on everything. (May use epi on renferal mythic not sure)

[Coldvibes]

Urgh, necrosis is awful to play, how much of a loss is it if you go SI instead?

[Piz813]

Urgh, necrosis is awful to play, how much of a loss is it if you go SI instead?

I saw a gain. Was ahead of two others using SI. You don't DC before every SS

[raionyx]

I saw a gain. Was ahead of two others using SI. You don't DC before every SS

I could see Necrosis being a small gain over IC, especially with Double Doom trait, but I'm 7k AP away from that right now, so I haven't had a chance to give that a try yet. As is, I prefer Claws.

@angmaar The Belcher is a slight AOE DPS gain over the Ghoul/Skeleton for one (admittedly stupid on Blizzard's part) reason. The Ghoul, when transformed, deals AOE damage in a cone in front of it, which is not very wide, (~90-120 degrees), whereas the Abomination deals damage in a circle radius around itself, which, when combined with either Infected Claws (More wounds spread in a circle) or Shadow Infusion (More uptime) just generally results in more DPS either way.

I personally don't like the Shadow Infusion gameplay because it forces you to dump Death Coils in a weird way, and throws off the lineup of your burst. But with the increased Proc rate from Double Doom plus the additional charge, I can see how SI could potentially be very strong. Overall I feel like that entire tier is fairly well-balanced, but I will try out some alternative setups tonight once I activate the Double Doom trait.

Lastly... @Piz813 I'm curious how one should line up their Death Coils if using Necrosis, if not to DC before every SS? Before every second? Every third? Only when you've got 3-4 Runes on recharge? Only when RP capped? With Sudden Doom procs? The proper frequency to me would inform the next trait (Deadliest Coil for synergy with Double Doom, or Runic Tattoos for more Coils for the sake of Necrosis)

[Deleted]

I could see Necrosis being a small gain over IC, especially with Double Doom trait, but I'm 7k AP away from that right now, so I haven't had a chance to give that a try yet. As is, I prefer Claws.

@angmaar The Belcher is a slight AOE DPS gain over the Ghoul/Skeleton for one (admittedly stupid on Blizzard's part) reason. The Ghoul, when transformed, deals AOE damage in a cone in front of it, which is not very wide, (~90-120 degrees), whereas the Abomination deals damage in a circle radius around itself, which, when combined with either Infected Claws (More wounds spread in a circle) or Shadow Infusion (More uptime) just generally results in more DPS either way.

I personally don't like the Shadow Infusion gameplay because it forces you to dump Death Coils in a weird way, and throws off the lineup of your burst. But with the increased Proc rate from Double Doom plus the additional charge, I can see how SI could potentially be very strong. Overall I feel like that entire tier is fairly well-balanced, but I will try out some alternative setups tonight once I activate the Double Doom trait.

Lastly... @Piz813 I'm curious how one should line up their Death Coils if using Necrosis, if not to DC before every SS? Before every second? Every third? Only when you've got 3-4 Runes on recharge? Only when RP capped? With Sudden Doom procs? The proper frequency to me would inform the next trait (Deadliest Coil for synergy with Double Doom, or Runic Tattoos for more Coils for the sake of Necrosis)

We did Cenarius last night HC and honestly this build: BS -> PP -> Castigator -> Asphyxiate -> LA -> IC -> SR did wonders for me... I don't have any legendaries , but holy shit I was around 250k+ dps (ilvl 850, 22% crit, 21% haste, 48% mastery) - sustained dps, usually 3rd or 4th place on meters. In burst around 450k... FWs are just endless with this combination, it simply destroys any epidemic build and combined with PP you drown in runes. With legendary bracers and UF I can see this as a top pick. I'll be sticking to this build frankly. Asphyxiate is a personal choice.... I simply like the ghoul more than the belcher. This build is also a almost perfect build for arenas (CS instead of castigator and Blighted rune weapon instead of PP). I really underestimated how many FWs can the pet apply in a raid.

[0verdose]

We did Cenarius last night HC and honestly this build: BS -> PP -> Castigator -> Asphyxiate -> LA -> IC -> SR did wonders for me... I don't have any legendaries , but holy shit I was around 250k+ dps (ilvl 850, 22% crit, 21% haste, 48% mastery) - sustained dps, usually 3rd or 4th place on meters. In burst around 450k... FWs are just endless with this combination, it simply destroys any epidemic build and combined with PP you drown in runes. With legendary bracers and UF I can see this as a top pick. I'll be sticking to this build frankly. Asphyxiate is a personal choice.... I simply like the ghoul more than the belcher. This build is also a almost perfect build for arenas (CS instead of castigator and Blighted rune weapon instead of PP). I really underestimated how many FWs can the pet apply in a raid.

Yeah I love infected claws, especially when I hit DT and my ghouls applies fw to all of the adds for huge ass aoe burst in dnd. It's the most satisfying talent when it comes to doing that. For ST though, I've tested and decided that SI is the go to for me. I just simply do more dps when specc'd into SI. I may start playing with necrosis but for now I love the uptime on DT thru shadow infusion. Maybe it's because I sometimes get lazy and have a bad habit of pooling my rp so it works out perfectly for me. It's not even a pain to manage it because I have a timer any ways showing when DT falls off.

[Deleted]

Yeah I love infected claws, especially when I hit DT and my ghouls applies fw to all of the adds for huge ass aoe burst in dnd. It's the most satisfying talent when it comes to doing that. For ST though, I've tested and decided that SI is the go to for me. I just simply do more dps when specc'd into SI. I may start playing with necrosis but for now I love the uptime on DT thru shadow infusion. Maybe it's because I sometimes get lazy and have a bad habit of pooling my rp so it works out perfectly for me. It's not even a pain to manage it because I have a timer any ways showing when DT falls off.

I couldn't find necrosis fitting for me, I have a bad habbit of OCDing when I can't get a close to 100% sync on DC->SS and since we have so many priorities sometimes(especially on BL/SR) I find myself with sudden doom procs and RP capped , use 1 DC and scourge of worlds proccing so I prefer to just spam SS to pop all wounds and profit from the 30% dmg increase... not sure, but I believe it it does way more damage than weaving DCs into that, might need to git gud and work on my muscle memory... it's annoying that we're either slow and rune starved(1.5 GCD) or simply GCD capped as too many things need to happen NOW! like 8 wounds, scourge of worlds etc.

SI is incredible I agree, but with BS -> PP -> Castigator -> Asphyxiate -> LA -> IC -> SR i feel like IC fits too well with PP and BS. SI fits well in the sense that after you unloaded everything on the boss and the haste buff is gone, you're back to crawling with 1.5 GCD and rune starvation and you can unload 3-5 DCs back to back just as DT finishes... it comes close to a near 100% uptime. Epidemic... tbh, that's a trap talent... it bloats meters like a mofo, but doesn't do enough and then you're 100% rune starved to even start a DnD SS spam :/