1. #1

    [Prot] Question about Pawn Values / Stat Priority

    I found a stat-priority pawn string here,

    Stamina [12.07] > Versatility [9.07] > Haste [7.57] > Mastery [6.07] > Crit [4.57] > Strength [3.07]


    what I'm missing though is the armor value. Why isn't it mentioned in the suggestion? What would be the appropriate value for it? An item with an higher armor value / higher item-level makes a huge difference for other tanks like the guardian druid, I heard. Isn't this the same for Prot Paladins?

  2. #2
    Deleted
    Good question. The string simply shows that the box for armor was not checked when doing the simulations. I would guess that it's a decent stat, but I haven't tested it myself. Along with the stamina, armor is one of the main reasons why better secondary values on lower level items hardly matter in our gear selection.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    I found a stat-priority pawn string here,

    Stamina [12.07] > Versatility [9.07] > Haste [7.57] > Mastery [6.07] > Crit [4.57] > Strength [3.07]


    what I'm missing though is the armor value. Why isn't it mentioned in the suggestion? What would be the appropriate value for it? An item with an higher armor value / higher item-level makes a huge difference for other tanks like the guardian druid, I heard. Isn't this the same for Prot Paladins?
    because it's noxxic and you don't use noxxic unless you're toxic

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    because it's noxxic and you don't use noxxic unless you're toxic
    How accurate are those numbers though? I haven't used Pawn in years but if accurate numbers are available I might pick it up

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    because it's noxxic and you don't use noxxic unless you're toxic
    well I know only one alternative, but this one doesn't offer any Pawn-values (and does not consider armor either). Do you know anything "better"?

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    Do you know anything "better"?
    From one of Celinamuna's posts in the [Prot]WoD/Legion Alpha thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Celinamuna
    ( Pawn: v1: "Comb_Pre_raid": Strength=7.4, Stamina=7.94, CritRating=6.9915, HasteRating=8.144, MasteryRating=7.566, Versatility=8.2235, Armor=19.608, Dps=1.7905)
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post42222982

    The thread is rather long but worth browsing, not least for Celinamuna's posts. He wrote the wowhead Prot paladin guide which is a more condensed source of advice.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Such detailed ratings are overrated. Those values vary depending on your talents, playstyle, gear, boss, movement, ...

    For example, here's what I got a few days ago simming my char, just varying the first talent row:

    ( Pawn: v1: "Baeldin1": Strength=0.31, Stamina=2.09, CritRating=0.48, HasteRating=0.60, MasteryRating=0.79, Versatility=0.79 ) Holy Shield
    ( Pawn: v1: "Baeldin2": Strength=0.27, Stamina=2.24, CritRating=0.47, HasteRating=-0.32, MasteryRating=0.61, Versatility=0.95 ) Blessed Hammer
    ( Pawn: v1: "Baeldin3": Strength=0.31, Stamina=2.23, CritRating=0.19, HasteRating=0.93, MasteryRating=0.69, Versatility=0.97 ) Consecrated Hammer

    Yes, that's a minus for haste rating. This should give you a little bit of a hint of how good a pawn string is without proper interpretation. Basically, you need at least 5-10 of these plus scaling plots and at least half a page of additional information to interpret the values. Posting a pawn string as part of a guide with five lines of ambiguous information is almost completely useless.

    Explaining haste alone took Theck several pages back in WoD, and a similar effort will have to be made to fully understand our Legion stat priority. Seeing this, I lean toward haste being at least as good as versatility in most cases, at least in the hands of a skilled player, maybe even better. We can use more frequent SotR and selfheals in a much smarter way than any simulation. The simulation just mechanically execute their rotation and since they keep doing the same thing over and over, with certain random variations, tons of little haste breakpoints (that are irrelevant in real life) start to show up. While they have an absolutely minor effect, they can locally strongly change the way how haste scales. Imagine a graph that has a bit of noise overlaid and the slope of the noise exceeds that of the actual graph. Basically, your sim could tell you that haste is at 0.97. Then you change a piece of gear and suddenly haste is at 0.32. Then 0.1, then 0.8 and then -0.3. That's the short version.

    TL;DR: Poorly commented pawn strings with lots of decimal places in guides are not a sign of a good guide and high precision, they're a sign of a lazy author.
    Last edited by mmoc4148e87d80; 2016-09-22 at 12:37 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Baeldin View Post
    TL;DR: Poorly commented pawn strings with lots of decimal places in guides are not a sign of a good guide and high precision, they're a sign of a lazy author.
    If i did round(X,2) would those pawns be more accurate ?
    And the reason why they have that "precision" is because they're composite around 4+ metrics, and i'm too lazy to round it.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    It was more about leaving them uncommented. It's not that the precision itself is the problem, rather that no other character will have the same values. Specifically, on noxxic they throw out the values up to two decimals and don't bother exaplaining that this can even slightly change. Hell, they don't even mention for what they scaled. I'd guess it's TMI but who knows? There's about one and a half lines of information per stat, it's missing crucial details like diminishing returns. Don't get me wrong, the absolute basics are there, but why bother to even post stat weights up to two decimals, if they can't be arsed to explain a stat in more than one sentence?

    Sorry, if I sounded harsh but as someone who regularly works with simulations I get irritated quite easily when I see people make the same mistakes for the thousanth time.

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    If i did round(X,2) would those pawns be more accurate ?
    And the reason why they have that "precision" is because they're composite around 4+ metrics, and i'm too lazy to round it.
    Of course not. It's perfectly fine giving the full precision when context is provided. There is no way we could compare, say, two items, if we did not have that precision. But if they just throw it out, then yes, rounding them would have been at least more honest because at least that way they wouldn't pretend to know exact values. Simcraft makes such a nice plot, including error bars. Even just putting up that graphic would have been better. It simply the mix on noxxic that I found... disturbing, not a problem with sims in general.

    //edit: By the way, today is the second time that I run large simulations over night that take far over an hour just to find Windows bragging about how smart it is and that it upgraded itself for me, automatically rebooting in the process. I really have to check if I can deactivate this "feature". :[
    At least I have replaced my broken graphics card and today I will finally hand in my thesis, so I might have some time to start working on my sims.

    //edit: I just found out that these pawn strings are actually for an addon... I guess you never stop learning LOL
    Last edited by mmoc4148e87d80; 2016-09-22 at 08:22 AM.

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