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  1. #1

    Question Castigator or Clawing Shadows? Asking for an explanation.

    I'm about to make Unholy DK as my alt, but I'm sorta worried of this talent choice and stat priorities that come with it.

    I like Castigator, in combination with Pestilent Pustules it allows more fluent gameplay, which also lowers the priority of haste.
    But from what I've expirienced on my DH(we've finished 7/7 N and 1/7 H), currently, in Emerald Nightmare, only Ursoc and Nythendra favor ST damage, while others require lots of movement and add killing and Epidemic+Clawing Shadows seem to be more handy in that matter.

    Icy Veins suggest Crit >= Haste in castigator build and Haste > Mastery with Clawing Shadows, from what I understand: I should prioritise my stats for ST, thus going with Castigator stat priority, because AoE is good as it is? Will I get *punished* for having Crit as main secondary stat in this situation?

    Also minorquestions:
    1) Clawing Shadows dealing 130% shadow damage, while Scourge Strike 125% physical + 65% Shadow. Is Scourge Strike actually more powerful or boss armor values make it less powerful than CS?
    2) Huge aspect of CS is 30 yrd range. As I mentioned 5 out of 7 fights in Emerald Nightmare favor movement and cleave damage: is it worthy to use Clawing Shadows from afar on targets that don't have any Festring Wounds on? Is that *actually* the main point of CS in that matter?
    3) CS is equally good for ST aswell as Castigator?
    Last edited by Kossad; 2016-09-23 at 08:46 AM.

  2. #2
    I have experienced the raid yesterday on normal (heroic on Sunday), I don't feel like you need to have a CS for the fights, maybe for the Spider boss, when you have to run out of range for prolonged time. I would suggest taking All will Serve for Nythedra, Ursoc, Dragons and Spider boss to boost your ST and uptime. Rest depends on how much AoE needs your raid group. My group has 3 hunters and 2 mages, 2 DHs. That is so much free cleave that I don't feel the need for epidemic or to boost AoE by going CS, DD+SH + BS should cover your needs. This can change in heroic and later mythic of course.

    1)If you have higher mastery, CS will do more damage due to full shadow damage (no armor mitigation). But that also means that you are producing less Wounds and also popping less of them due to no Castigator. In the end it is a DPS loss in most fights.

    2)I think you should put some wounds up before DD+CS spam, definitely if you have BS talent.

    3)CS is dps loss at the moment pretty much at any point. It can make your pulls also very miserable with 3-4 Festerings needed for Apocalypse. Same for SR needing 3 runes and 3 GCDs. With crit at 35% atm I can have 3 SR stacks quite easily with 1 SS.
    Last edited by Hunaxor; 2016-09-23 at 10:01 AM.

  3. #3
    Just went thru EN with castigator. You do not need cs or epidemic for these fights. Epidemic is good for evil tree and spider fight but I doubt it makes a difference. Pestilent pustules all the way. Aws for neth, ursoc and dragons and you will find yourself doing more dps than some specs. Really middle/lower of the pack when everyone is = geared as you though.

  4. #4
    Does anyone know with which Mastery value CS would be better than castigator?

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Piz813's Avatar
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    Simple explanation:

    Don't take clawing shadows. Ever.
    Why?
    Because we said so.

    There is NO mastery level high enough to make it worth while. The math has been done by Banter. Just don't. If there is a fight where ranged spells are needed more, a ranged dps will be brought in over a DK

    Don't go against the grain here. Castigator all day everyday. Unless you get the bracers, then take unholy frenzy. Period.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Piz813 View Post
    Don't go against the grain here. Castigator all day everyday. Unless you get the bracers, then take unholy frenzy. Period.
    This is an interesting bit that I've noticed from those who have the bracers. I really want to try this out (if bracers drop). Seems to bring melee damage to quite a respectable level.
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  7. #7
    Thanks.
    Was just curious because I´ve just no luck with Crit+Haste gear and sitting around with so much mastery.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Filri View Post
    Thanks.
    Was just curious because I´ve just no luck with Crit+Haste gear and sitting around with so much mastery.
    I feel ya. ~32% crit with ~14% haste but have ~41% mastery.
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  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Piz813's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valermos View Post
    I feel ya. ~32% crit with ~14% haste but have ~41% mastery.
    You are kinda spot on. Just a tad bit haste and you'll be set! SR adds a bunch with three stacks. 32% crit is real good. Try for a haste proc trinket like nightmare eggshell or chrono shard. Even a world quest str/haste trinket will do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Valermos View Post
    This is an interesting bit that I've noticed from those who have the bracers. I really want to try this out (if bracers drop). Seems to bring melee damage to quite a respectable level.
    For shits and giggles try UF on a dummy and pop SR. You'll be a blender with auto attacks! Like 1.2 attack speed! Faster then full icy talons frost
    Percocetz Aeirie Peak Alliance- because im a F'n WEREWOLF!
    Filthy Casual

  10. #10
    I have been outperformed by our other DK mainly because he has better itemized gear. We run the same talents, and same gear level essentially but he is beating my by a few million damage each fight. Looking through logs, he is just popping more wounds than me. When I look at his gear, he is at around 38% crit, while I am at 29% crit. I have double his mastery and we have the same haste.

    I will be working to up my crit over the weekend for sure. I have been wondering about the skulker though, I think he scales with haste but not crit but I will have to test because google is not being easy on that information.

    The clawing shadow, I find it is a big dps loss but not because of the scaling of the actual strike but the mechanics of bursting wounds. SS can burst from 1-4 wounds and CS will always burst just one. Essentially when you get high enough crit CS can just never keep up with the wound damage that SS can put out.

    The other thing that I think people are not doing is double wounding cleave adds. For example, on cenarius when you are cleaving adds you stack wounds on both targets, wait for your runes to recharge then drop DnD and spam SS. The cleaving SS because of DnD will pop wounds on both targets and it ramps super fast. This will only work on things that are up for a while, but it is a big boost to cleave damage and is a good way you can bump yourself up. I think it is also a good idea to get infected claws for fights like this as the cleave from your belcher can keep this going artificially and that is more damage than a transformed belcher.

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Piz813's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    I have been outperformed by our other DK mainly because he has better itemized gear. We run the same talents, and same gear level essentially but he is beating my by a few million damage each fight. Looking through logs, he is just popping more wounds than me. When I look at his gear, he is at around 38% crit, while I am at 29% crit. I have double his mastery and we have the same haste.

    I will be working to up my crit over the weekend for sure. I have been wondering about the skulker though, I think he scales with haste but not crit but I will have to test because google is not being easy on that information.

    The clawing shadow, I find it is a big dps loss but not because of the scaling of the actual strike but the mechanics of bursting wounds. SS can burst from 1-4 wounds and CS will always burst just one. Essentially when you get high enough crit CS can just never keep up with the wound damage that SS can put out.

    The other thing that I think people are not doing is double wounding cleave adds. For example, on cenarius when you are cleaving adds you stack wounds on both targets, wait for your runes to recharge then drop DnD and spam SS. The cleaving SS because of DnD will pop wounds on both targets and it ramps super fast. This will only work on things that are up for a while, but it is a big boost to cleave damage and is a good way you can bump yourself up. I think it is also a good idea to get infected claws for fights like this as the cleave from your belcher can keep this going artificially and that is more damage than a transformed belcher.

    skulker scales with crit and versatility. we use it on pure single targets like Ursoc and Zombie D. (FF1 reference) Even on Nightmare Dragons use it!

    - - - Updated - - -

    the spread wounds with out Infected Claws then DnD and SS takes too long IMO. Epidemic is faster
    Percocetz Aeirie Peak Alliance- because im a F'n WEREWOLF!
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Piz813 View Post
    skulker scales with crit and versatility. we use it on pure single targets like Ursoc and Zombie D. (FF1 reference) Even on Nightmare Dragons use it!

    - - - Updated - - -

    the spread wounds with out Infected Claws then DnD and SS takes too long IMO. Epidemic is faster
    So looking through my logs I see that his crit matches mine, so that is good to know. I would like to know where you got that information though, as it seems odd that it would not scale from haste. I will look for more info on this.

    About the cleave, I find epidemic is good for when you have 3-4+ targets that are bunched up, but if you are talking just two targets I find that the wound/SS/DnD spam is far better. It might even be better to just SS/DnD spam depending on what you are doing. I would be interested to see some numbers comparing the different options for two target cleave. (hmm, maybe I will math it out at work today if it is slow)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Piz813 View Post
    You are kinda spot on. Just a tad bit haste and you'll be set! SR adds a bunch with three stacks. 32% crit is real good. Try for a haste proc trinket like nightmare eggshell or chrono shard. Even a world quest str/haste trinket will do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    For shits and giggles try UF on a dummy and pop SR. You'll be a blender with auto attacks! Like 1.2 attack speed! Faster then full icy talons frost
    I'll give this a whirl thanks. I have an 840 nightmare eggshell that I tossed in the bank and haven't used because sims say it isn't worthwhile but I am learning that sims aren't the end all be all atm.
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  14. #14
    The thing with castigator is that it actually affects your resource generation, while clawing shadows can never do that regardless of how much mastery you have.

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral Piz813's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valermos View Post
    I'll give this a whirl thanks. I have an 840 nightmare eggshell that I tossed in the bank and haven't used because sims say it isn't worthwhile but I am learning that sims aren't the end all be all atm.
    Dude on at the point where I'm saying Fuck Sims. People need to stop asking about it and living by it.
    Sims is amazing at. Figuring out witch off piece to use with tier, which no one has or will have till 2017. And that's different this xpac cause cloaks count towards the set, so two pieces of off gear need to be figured out which they did already.
    We need crit for castigate and haste for rune regent. Plain and simple. Mythic + gear changes everything ever time you get a piece. So do 100 Sims I'm 840, 845, 850, etc of the same piece or just use a simple formula and gear accordingly with what's in your bags right now
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  16. #16
    So I did a short excel sheet and I am thinking epidemic is a trap talent. I did not put in crit, but I guess I should to see how it maths out with crit but I compared four scenarios over 10 second windows in a two target cleave. I had 44% mastery, 9k avg Weapon Damage and 23k AP.

    1.) DnD/Epidemic, which is a DnD cast at the start of the 10 second window and 3 epidemic casts.
    2.) DnD/SS Spam, which is a DnD cast at the start of the 10 second window and 6 SS casts. (assuming one rune recharges in time)
    3.) DnD/SS/Wound Spam, which is assuming you have 6 stacks of wound up on two targets. This one is harder because it takes longer than the 10 second window to actually set this up assuming FS grants 3 wounds and SS pops 2 wounds. I halved the damage this does to account for the setup time.
    4.) DnD/SS/Wound Single, which is DnD first GCD, 2 FS, then 2 SS which is all you can fit into a single 10 second frame. This assumes you get 6 wounds up and pop 4 wounds.

    1.) 456k Damage (46k dps)
    2.) 589K Damage (59K dps)
    3.) 1.5Mil Damage (which was the result of cutting it in half) 159K dps
    4.) 1.1 mil damage (115k dps)

    The numbers look super low so I must have missed something. (or perhaps it just needs the pet, plague, etc added in) I will compare the numbers to in game when I get home.

    It looks to me that epidemic is really for large clumps or when you can't SS cleave. I mean, just dropping DnD and cleaving SS with no wounds beats dropping DnD and spamming epidemic. It also looks like because of the ramp up time to cleaving wound stacks with DnD that you are better stacking wound on a single target and spamming SS in DnD. I would image in this scenario that the belcher wound stacks on cleave would boost this greatly.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Kossad View Post
    I'm about to make Unholy DK as my alt, but I'm sorta worried of this talent choice and stat priorities that come with it.

    I like Castigator, in combination with Pestilent Pustules it allows more fluent gameplay, which also lowers the priority of haste.
    But from what I've expirienced on my DH(we've finished 7/7 N and 1/7 H), currently, in Emerald Nightmare, only Ursoc and Nythendra favor ST damage, while others require lots of movement and add killing and Epidemic+Clawing Shadows seem to be more handy in that matter.

    Icy Veins suggest Crit >= Haste in castigator build and Haste > Mastery with Clawing Shadows, from what I understand: I should prioritise my stats for ST, thus going with Castigator stat priority, because AoE is good as it is? Will I get *punished* for having Crit as main secondary stat in this situation?

    Also minorquestions:
    1) Clawing Shadows dealing 130% shadow damage, while Scourge Strike 125% physical + 65% Shadow. Is Scourge Strike actually more powerful or boss armor values make it less powerful than CS?
    2) Huge aspect of CS is 30 yrd range. As I mentioned 5 out of 7 fights in Emerald Nightmare favor movement and cleave damage: is it worthy to use Clawing Shadows from afar on targets that don't have any Festring Wounds on? Is that *actually* the main point of CS in that matter?
    3) CS is equally good for ST aswell as Castigator?
    You have to remember that Castigator is amazing in cleave fights with bursting sores. The synergy with the two talents is what makes it the better over all choice. So it can also be considered better for cleave and AoE.

    For the movement on fights, the time you are on the boss, Castigator is better. If you are moving or switching targets, the time it takes to use wraith walk/put a disease if it is a target switch/cast deathcoil (if you manage it properly you can have enough saved up for the movement) then the dps different wont be that giant unless you have to sit out in the boons for a large period of time.

    Due to CS getting multiple nerfs because it was to strong, it caused Castigator to shine on single target with the buff to Festering wounds. I want to say with more mastery it will be better but mastery also increases festering wounds.


    I now view CS as a PVP talent, Out of the three it is the second best until you get a certain legendary and then it becomes the worst out of the three.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Filri View Post
    Does anyone know with which Mastery value CS would be better than castigator?
    No because Mastery also increases festering wound damage. By that time we will also have more crit which just increases the value of castigator as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrean View Post
    So I did a short excel sheet and I am thinking epidemic is a trap talent. I did not put in crit, but I guess I should to see how it maths out with crit but I compared four scenarios over 10 second windows in a two target cleave. I had 44% mastery, 9k avg Weapon Damage and 23k AP.

    1.) DnD/Epidemic, which is a DnD cast at the start of the 10 second window and 3 epidemic casts.
    2.) DnD/SS Spam, which is a DnD cast at the start of the 10 second window and 6 SS casts. (assuming one rune recharges in time)
    3.) DnD/SS/Wound Spam, which is assuming you have 6 stacks of wound up on two targets. This one is harder because it takes longer than the 10 second window to actually set this up assuming FS grants 3 wounds and SS pops 2 wounds. I halved the damage this does to account for the setup time.
    4.) DnD/SS/Wound Single, which is DnD first GCD, 2 FS, then 2 SS which is all you can fit into a single 10 second frame. This assumes you get 6 wounds up and pop 4 wounds.

    1.) 456k Damage (46k dps)
    2.) 589K Damage (59K dps)
    3.) 1.5Mil Damage (which was the result of cutting it in half) 159K dps
    4.) 1.1 mil damage (115k dps)

    The numbers look super low so I must have missed something. (or perhaps it just needs the pet, plague, etc added in) I will compare the numbers to in game when I get home.

    It looks to me that epidemic is really for large clumps or when you can't SS cleave. I mean, just dropping DnD and cleaving SS with no wounds beats dropping DnD and spamming epidemic. It also looks like because of the ramp up time to cleaving wound stacks with DnD that you are better stacking wound on a single target and spamming SS in DnD. I would image in this scenario that the belcher wound stacks on cleave would boost this greatly.
    You forgot to add the fact that bursting sores get procced when a mob dies so if you aoe and the mob you have one single festering wound on dies it turns into a living bomb. People forget that when looking at everything and it has caused a few giant burst damage windows for me.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Piz813 View Post
    skulker scales with crit and versatility.
    it also scales with haste

  19. #19
    Sitting at like 30% crit 16% haste and 43% mastery... Way too much mastery, just got a new piece that dropped my haste by 4%. I think that magic number of haste to have is 20%

  20. #20
    Bloodsail Admiral Piz813's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0verdose View Post
    Sitting at like 30% crit 16% haste and 43% mastery... Way too much mastery, just got a new piece that dropped my haste by 4%. I think that magic number of haste to have is 20%
    Mastery=dreadblade. More shadow damage is always welcome. If you have it, it's fine just don't pass haste and crit for it
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