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  1. #301
    I think you're a little late to the draw OP. WoW has been dumbed down for many years now. The game has already headed in that direction long ago. If you're trying to compare it to the vanilla/TBC or even wrath era, dont bother, its a completely different game now with a different objective and player base.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyphe View Post
    I think you are full of shit and making things up to support your personal feelings.

    I'm in a huge guild that has been around for a very long time. We've seen boom times during popular expansions like wrath ... slow times like the end of cata when everyone unsubbed ... a rekindling of activity for MoP ... early interest in the first two weeks of wod that tailed off very quickly ... and now legion. What I see in legion is more people playing, raiding, and coming back to the game than I've witnessed during any other expansion. And the number of active players remain incredibly high and growing - whereas the active players had already fallen off significantly by this time in Wod. And people are engaged. Nobody is complaining and nobody is bored.

    Of course, my guild is not a perfect proxy for Wow - but its big and diverse enough to be a decent gauge ... especially since our guild activity has very closely mirrored activity in the wider game over the years. And everything I see ... and everything blizz has said so far about the numbers ... says you are full of shit.

    If you don't like the game anymore, np and just move on. But don't feel like you need to try and ruin the party for everyone else that IS loving it.
    But can you understand that MAYBE other people like the old way of playing the game and they don't want to ruins nothing for nobody, just play again cause Blizzard give them the opportunity?

    Probably (i don't say that as a fact, just an opinion) like 90/95 % of the old school players that wan0t to play again the old game, don't want to change the retail versain to look like the old game.

    About the idea of the guy you quote...i am in the same guild for years now, and now is a bit more alive, but i can asure you that it was much more alive in MoP and WoD, at least at launch, like Legion now. Not too much more, but a bit more of people, and i was raiding more easy to find people in MoP and WoD than now on Legion. But, at the same time, i like more Legion than MoP and WoD at least for now.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Vineri View Post
    But Vanilla was fun. Challenging and fun. The new stuff can just be nerfed anyways with addons - this makes the Retail encounters more annoying than anything else. Vanilla was just you and whatever you brought to the table (mostly .. some addons did help with timing and such)

    Also managing 40 people was part of the game. If you were not a leader, a raid officer, or a class leader, then you may feel the game was easy because other people did the research for you, and simply told you what to do.

    I agree though that server community was a tremendous loss. I loved spotting players of opposite faction who did me wrong in the past, and stomping them. Nowadays I'd never find anyone I ever saw before
    It was fun at the time. In hindsight I doubt I'd find in nearly as enjoyable. When I first logged into wow (vanilla beta) I'd never played anything like it. The internet itself was much simpler so sources of information about the game were far fewer. So when I quested I made mistakes, did things badly, died and so on. The learning was a lot of fun as was running instances, during raids for the first time and listening to people scream in team-speak.

    All good.

    But a lot of the content wasn't actually that great. Stuff was broken, pvp was a zergfest in two areas that crashed the game and player advancement was massively gated behind very very slow drop rates. I'd argue that a lot of the accomplishment of wearing, say, full tier 2 wasn't skill (and I was a warlock leader for most of vanilla) but willingness to commit massive amounts of time to the thing. To raid week after week after week for the joy of a few visible set pieces. And it was fabulous when they dropped but frustrating when you had to replace them soon after the next patch hit.

    Modern wow has brought a whole host of things I love: Questing is better, the world story is INFINITELY better (rather than a medium ranked couple of dragons and an old fire elemental/god we're now finding out tons of world lore, taking on the burning legion etc), cut scenes have improved and the game offers a host of niceties such as the transmog tab and the ability to find dungeons and world groups easily (and before anyone asks - yes I don't really like lfr - but I'm in a great guild so don't need it). The artwork is fabulous, the level designs are full of little areas to explore and everything feels more alive. There's even a return to focusing on one or two characters - rather than grinding 12 alts in your garrison.

    For me? They've done a great job with everything bar class balance. Time will tell if they keep content coming out to keep peoples interests up however.

  4. #304
    Dreadlord Bethrezen's Avatar
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    From a Vanilla Player: Your reasoning is fogged by nostalgia. The game is fine (If you play everything like me from pvp/arena/RBGs/WPVP to mythic+/mythic raiding).

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmbringe View Post
    snip
    I too had Rhok'Delar. On my alt. Yes, before TBC. The questline to obtain it was cool, but it wasn't quite the rare and unique item you make it out to be unless you're talking about very early in the game.

    My main was decked out in epics, I have like 6/9 T3, I still have it, was probably one of the better geared Priests on the server. That said, I didn't sit on the mailbox all day to gather a "crowd of admirers" , christ. I just went to the raids and otherwise I wasn't in the game probably - so I didn't flaunt all of my gear to the hopefuls and the have-nots. The gear was nothing but improvement to my character so I could do better in more difficult content. Everything else is purely about ego stroking and does nothing but breed an elitist attitude that you see even today.

    I was not "amazed" by our MT's Thunderfury. It was yet another tool, a very good one I might add, that improved our MT and thus our raid, but that was all, it was just a weapon. Perhaps this is a problem with me, I don't, especially not now but not even too much back then, look at this kind of multiplayer game with amazement or a sense of wonder.

    I care more about encounter design, playing well, doing my best, that kind of stuff. I couldn't care less about being a "special snowflake" to random people - I only care about the people I actually spend time with, they know me and they know what I can do. I would urge people, both in game and in real life, to give less of a shit what random people think about you.

    And you're right, I was much younger then, and I remember with much embarrassment that I thought I was way, waaaaaay better than most people. Fortunately, I had the decency to not voice my feelings too much and be an elitist asshole, but I certainly felt superior, deep down.

    The truth is, I had a lot of free time, I had a passable understanding of the game, I had enough patience, and I happened to be in the right place at the right time and ask the right people the right questions to get into a guild that was doing such high end content.

    That is it. That was all it took. The bar was pretty low, most of the encounters were pretty rudimentary even in Naxx. For every Four Horsemen or Kel'Thuzad you had several bosses like Patchwerk, Gluth or Grobbulus with like 1 or 2 mechanics and that was it. Nowadays you easily have a single boss incorporate the mechanics of several Naxx ones. Encounter design has improved dramatically. It's not even funny.


    As for talents - yes, you're right, most people had no clue. How does this change anything ? Those people were playing the game wrong. Like, factually wrong. If you were playing properly, and trying to maximize your performance, there were very few ways to go.

    The bad specs were "viable" in the sense that you could bring them along and win anyway. This was a design flaw and it goes to show again that the game really wasn't as super hard as people made it out to be. If you get right down to the min maxing, why would you take a Vanilla Ret Paladin or Feral Druid when you could take something better ? We also had a Feral Druid and a Ret Paladin. It was fine, of course - because raid sizes were so ridiculously bloated and encounter design was so simple, it didn't matter.

    This also goes back to what you said about what you'd have to do to play your Hunter optimally. Yeah, you could do things to play optimally, but guess what, people still bound their rotation to their mouse wheel, because it didn't matter, you'd win anyway. When things don't matter, it means your design is fucked. When you can achieve the same result with 1/10th of the effort, why go for 100% min max efficiency ? You could, if it makes you feel good - but I would rather have a game where you HAVE to do it in order to be successful. So you can't have it both ways, either you can bring anyone because lol whatever, or you have these complex mechanics that everyone needs to understand.

    Finally about Hunters, let's get this straight: Kiting was not hard. You turn quickly, you use your slows, you run. It's the sort of mechanic that I'd be interested in seeing again and has been underused in many years, but it wasn't an amazing feat. If you could deal with the Rhok'Delar quest, you understood kiting.

    I won't even get into the whole communism comment because it clearly shows you have no clue about Legion content and how they've layered difficulty.

    I also call MAJOR BULL on the last point you've made. I would seriously hope someone that is apparently twice my age if you were 31 in 2005 would understand what I said. So let me repeat it and elaborate with an example too: Something taking a long time to do does NOT. I repeat - NOT - make it difficult:
    - Farming the gold for your epic mount ? Long grind ? Yes. Difficult ? Nope.
    - Farming Bronze Dragonflight reputation for AQ opening - Long ? Yes. Difficult ? Obviously, no. And no, going to BWL and killing Broodlord doesn't count, we're talking about the grind.
    - Was decking out your entire raid in a set of Nature Resist gear for Princess Huhuran difficult ? NO. It was a CHORE. And GOD FORBID you think you can let people get their OWN gear. You think THAT will happen ? HA ! You are an officer, YOU are responsible, now go set up a spreadsheet and make sure you get everyone the gear, or you're not raiding tonight.
    - Was Thunderfury difficult to obtain ? NO. Sure, you had to kill Geddon and Garr or whatever the fuck, but once you had these easy bosses on farm, it was purely about luck and trying OVER and OVER. Farm, farm, farm.

    And we can move on to a modern example: Obtaining a Legion Legendary. Long ? It is random, maybe someone else got theirs from the first normal dungeon they did, I've played possibly over 300 hours of Legion so far though, and I've done dozens of Mythic+ dungeons this week. 4 characters, no legendary. Does this mean it is HARD to obtain one ? NO. It just needs a LOT of dice rolling on the RNG.

    This really isn't something I should have to explain. So one final time: Something that is difficult strains your ability and understanding of the game, your class and it's mechanics to the maximum. It can be a 5 minute encounter where you have to play really well, it can be a really unforgiving boss where one misstep means a wipe. This has NOTHING to do with length - repetitive, tedious tasks that you can do while listening to a podcast and watching TV are not difficult just because you have to do them 100 times. Makes sense ?

    The game is at it's hardest and most complex today, if you want it to be. If you only want to do Normals and Heroics, then yeah, it will seem "dumbed down" and really, really easy. This sort of design philosophy means Blizzard isn't spending thousands of man hours designing content that only <3% (hello Sunwell, yes, I did that too) of the population will see, while maintaining a good challenge for who want to partake in it.

    I don't know if you've played any Legion, if you haven't, get over your Vanilla elitism, get to 110, gear up a bit, and take a punt at Mythic+. Five man content, more difficult than any of the long, tedious bullshit from Vanilla. Dungeons where you have to use your entire kit and keep up a steady pace - where not stunning trash mobs at the right time means the incoming party damage will be impossible to keep up with. What's this ?! Encounters where the responsibility for success isn't soley on the tank and healer ? Oh say it ain't so ! Oh, and you only have one try, good luck. Best of all, if you work 8 hours a day, you're in luck ! These dungeons are on a timer, the longest timer is 45 minutes, the shortest is 25. Some of the hardest, most intense content I've done has been Mythic+6 and up, at least in current gear. Meanwhile in Vanilla 5 mans you can spend 2 hours in BRD painstakingly CCing on every pack and pretending it was difficult.

    This discussion is indeed a waste of time. People who played back then, most of them much younger and happier, with a LOT more free time, either no longer have the time or inclination to play the game at a high level now, they go to the Normals and Heroics and declare "Phah, this is all child's play now ! "

    God. I should go play instead of talking about this crap.
    Last edited by mmoc7feaf5ca98; 2016-09-28 at 12:40 AM.

  6. #306
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mhorrg View Post
    I've always put it down to cross realms.

    WoW was awesome when your server was a community and you only interacted with each other. As more and more cross realm elements were added we lost the community and community is what makes MMOs good.
    Some servers had a community. Some servers didn't (big ones). Any experience of community ppl had in early WoW had nothing to do with the game itself but with the amount of people you were able to interact with. As someone who always played on big servers I don't see any difference between now and Vanilla when it comes to "the community".

    One more thing, opinions are subjective.
    <- This Vanilla player loves WoW more and more with each expantion
    This is an opinion. People disliking current WoW is also an opinion regardless of the big words anyone tries to paint it with.
    Last edited by Lilija; 2016-09-28 at 12:29 AM.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Relnor View Post

    This discussion is indeed a waste of time. People who played back then, most of them much younger and happier, with a LOT more free time, either no longer have the time or inclination to play the game at a high level now, they go to the Normals and Heroics and declare "Phah, this is all child's play now ! "
    Stop using logic!!! Stop using facts!! You are derailing their thread!!

    As i said before in this thread, most people in here have either:

    Never played Vanilla, or are never able to learn the game despite all these years.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by lyphe View Post
    I think you are full of shit and making things up to support your personal feelings.

    I'm in a huge guild that has been around for a very long time. We've seen boom times during popular expansions like wrath ... slow times like the end of cata when everyone unsubbed ... a rekindling of activity for MoP ... early interest in the first two weeks of wod that tailed off very quickly ... and now legion. What I see in legion is more people playing, raiding, and coming back to the game than I've witnessed during any other expansion. And the number of active players remain incredibly high and growing - whereas the active players had already fallen off significantly by this time in Wod. And people are engaged. Nobody is complaining and nobody is bored.
    Don't assume everything is the same tho everywhere why would I be lying? we had way many old people active in MoP and WoD than we have now tho. Also Im in a large guid that was funded in WoW beta(yes, before vanilla) and Im still here, never been in any other guild.
    Sure the lowest raiding activity was in cata probably, mainly because my realm died a bit as many good players moced away from it because it was too full and laggy by the end of wrath.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrenna View Post
    I can't imagine how the game can possibly be dumber now, when dps rotation was hitting 1 button that throws a missile, may it be frost bolt, fire bolt or shadow bolt.

    Sure you had lots of spells, most of which were utterly pointless because they dealt next to no damage in the wrong spec, or worse, took up a debuff slot on raid bosses, (back when you couldn't apply unlimited number of debuffs, which was SO MUCH FUN for sure btw).

    Talents offered an illusion of choice, with some talents mandatory while others were outright pointless and impossible to use in any build. Waiting 50+ levels to get your spec's signature move made the game slow and clunky.

    All WoW has lost is archaic game mechanics.
    You sound exactly like a Blizzard rep. I think you've been listening too much to blue posters and are simply parroting what you have been fed.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Stop using logic!!! Stop using facts!! You are derailing their thread!!

    As i said before in this thread, most people in here have either:

    Never played Vanilla, or are never able to learn the game despite all these years.
    I never played in Vanilla. I came to the game in TBC. When ammo and reagents were a thing, hunters lost a bag slot, and there was no such thing as heirloom gear. WoW truly started changing with CRZ, LFD, and LFR. When realms stopped being self sufficient, all of the trolls and jerks were able to slither from the woodwork, unchecked by their fellow players.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Alvorea View Post
    - Epics are too easily available and raiding is not as rewarding as it was anymore.
    Well there was Wrath, which was the pinnacle of 'Welfare Epics'.
    And slightly toned down in Cata. Maybe.
    And as far as I remember mostly non-existent in MoP until the later patches.

    As far as server communities are involved... I couldn't really know, I've always played on the two biggest RP servers and the communities there seem preeeetty tight.

    Quit playing for the foreseeable future.

  12. #312
    High Overlord CapybaraSlayer's Avatar
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    I never played during Vanilla, but I tried Nostalrius PvE a few months before it shutdown. There was a charm I saw in Vanilla, it felt more of a sandbox type of game. The world was bigger, I think this was due to the length of time you are bound to the ground and the lack of flight points, travel in general took more time. Mobs took longer to kill, they were more hard not in the sense of mechanics, they were stronger. You wouldn't want to pull more than two mobs, but as a Paladin I was able to handle myself. The world felt more dangerous, as I viewed dying as a lot more punishing due to the run back, and the difficulty killing mobs immediately after rezzing. I didn't make it far on the pally, as the class design was pretty stupid since I just used seal + autoattack to kill mobs which because tedious and was a flaw I saw with Vanilla. I rerolled a mage which was amazing to play with all the utility the class still holds today + more. After reaching 25ish, not as far as I made on my Paladin, the server shutdown. One other small thing I loved was looking in every crook and cranny for a quest since there was no indication where quest NPCs were, Blizzard really wanted you to experience the world.

    From my experience there is no doubt I understand why people thought WoW lost its glory, it was a completely different game back then, and what they remember isn't just 100% nostalgia-fueled. They just want a game to be more like that iteration of WoW, and not like the current iteration which has many QoL changes that ruins the game for those players. I actually hope Blizzard goes through with the legacy realm, trying Vanilla WoW for the first time after experiencing current day WoW was a nice fresh breath of air from the current game and I could easily see it as a good alternative to play during content droughts which are going to be inevitable even if smaller this expansion. But I do think some of it's magic could be destroyed by people making addons around leveling removing the wonderful experience.
    Last edited by CapybaraSlayer; 2016-09-30 at 05:15 AM.

  13. #313
    As someone who also played since vanilla, my view is that WoW lost a lot of it's luster because it's something we've been doing for 12 years. Do most anything for 10-12 years that you love and it will never be like it was when it first started. You could have the hottest spouse on Earth, but after 12 years of sex it will never be as fun as it was when you first hooked up and there's nothing that will bring back that freshness of something being new. If they gave every class back all their old talents, gave us back the old talent calculators so that you're free to be any crappy build you want, got rid of lfr or whatever the whine of the week is...it'll still never be as fun and cool as it was a decade ago when you first started.

  14. #314
    WoW will never be as good as the first time I played it. That feeling can never be reignited in me by Blizzard or any other MMO developer.

    I don't think the MMO genre has lost anything, I think we've just seen all that it can offer.

    I can still find some fun it from time to time, others cannot. Nothing wrong with that.
    Last edited by Not A Cat; 2016-09-30 at 05:23 AM.
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  15. #315
    Scarab Lord Lilija's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion Fan View Post
    I never played in Vanilla. I came to the game in TBC. When ammo and reagents were a thing, hunters lost a bag slot, and there was no such thing as heirloom gear. WoW truly started changing with CRZ, LFD, and LFR. When realms stopped being self sufficient, all of the trolls and jerks were able to slither from the woodwork, unchecked by their fellow players.
    Trolls and jerks were always out. Noone had control over them even if you think you had. I wonder on how small servers people had to play to say that server community actually mattered before xrealm. I believe some smaller servers had a community but it wasn't a WoW thing - it was server size thing. The more people you have around you the less you are able to care for them. That's why guilds always have been and still are a thing - so you can play with people you can care about.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alvorea View Post
    That is the problem, it is about fun, and you can have fun by feeling the game more personal, even when not always winning. Everything is about competition nowdays, and all the fun are left behind.

  17. #317
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    I disagree with people who think its some nostalgia issue or player base thing. even current game can be done very enjoyable with very little needed fixes. There are really good ideas in game what are uncompleted or distorted, lacking just a little development. Other thing is that they trash working stuff and constantly create new problems. Game is not evolving (keeping and tuning good stuff, removing bad stuff and and adding little new features) but is redone in worst way (removing all the good stuff, implementing new bugs and questionable features, ignoring old crutial easily fixable problems - like sorting AH by item price not stack price).

  18. #318
    Having played Vanilla WOW and having played MUD games before Everquest, I can say the only thing I miss is the evolution of the genre and the WOW story.The main attraction of a MMO has always been the idea of a massive "open" world where players affected events through their actions with other players in real time. And the main attraction for Warcraft was the story going back to the original RTS games.

    The main thing that distinguishes vanilla wow from everything that came after, especially after Wrath is that Vanilla was a full world MMO which was new for everyone, backed by a rich story established by the previous RTS games. The main factor in WOWs favor was that the art style and combat mechanics were heads and shoulders above most others, especially Everquest. However, that main story line that was the most popular draw for WOW, which was the scourge and Arthas, came to an end with Wrath. And also, it was around the time of Wrath that most players most players were playing above the level cap of 60+. Prior to that WOW as a game was primarily about the leveling experience which was a massive grind and took a large amount of time invested to not only level but also to be into competitive raiding. Every since then the game has been moving away from the full MMO experience of vanilla and the original story line of the Warcraft RTS.

    These aren't problems mind you, but more choices that have affected the evolution of the game and the concept of a MMO overall. Back when Vanilla cam out MMOs were still new and the concept of "endgame" didn't really come into the picture. MMOs were still pretty much conceived as infinite sandboxes theoretically with many various potential plots and alternate plots based on user action. But as time has gone on, most MMOs have become more focused on endgame, which means that most players are now at the current level cap with a new expansion and playing in a much smaller world in terms of new zones released in an expansion. So that infinite story line and potential branches to the story never really comes to pass as in reality the story plays how the developers scripted it. Not to mention the fact that new content is mostly limited to the new zones means that the old zones feel like a travel back in time since they don't reflect current events. This negatively impacts the whole idea of a MMO as a massive open world which is constantly changing, which sounded good on paper way back when MMOs were new, but now just doesn't seem financially feasible. Not only would the effort at redoing every zone for every expansion and updating quest lines be a massive cost, but also it would disrupt questing for alts and make it a chore to do.

    The other thing that has suffered as MMOs have matured IMO is the story line. The case of the "your actions affect the world" concept that was touted early on in MMOs, really hasn't panned out. You get a group together and you kill mobs and guess what? They pop back up in a few minutes. That theme pretty much carries throughout all of the game. You get a group together and kill the big bad boss and guess what? He pops back up in a few hours or minutes and you can kill him again. This makes the progression of the story almost impossible in a real "open world" sense. If these things went according to some of the early promotional concepts behind MMOs, when a boss was killed or a town destroyed, it would stay destroyed. But then other players would be mad about not being able to participate in the story. Oddly enough this is exactly how many MUDs worked. If you found the golden magic unicorn and there was only one in the game then guess what? You were the only one that had it. Of course you can't expect that to truly apply to an MMO in the exact same way, but to some degree legion shows the problem when EVERYBODY has the special magical unicorn..... it really isn't so special anymore. And similarly, the same goes with epic plots in the story. If you think about it, most of what happened in the RTS story couldn't have happened if they were done as an MMO. Could you imagine Arthas going in and destroying Stratholme if that was part of the MMO? Not to mention how would the original destruction of Storm Wind happened? These kinds of things can't be done as dungeons or raids, meaning these are real in game towns getting destroyed. All these cataclysmic events could happen in an RTS because there were no "player champions" other than the main lore characters, so when things got killed they stayed killed and when things got destroyed they had an impact on the world. So now, with legion, instead of large parts of Azeroth actually being destroyed as you would expect, we just get new zones and of course our player champions will save the day as usual (even though in theory the legion should have wrecked half the planet). Nothing especially catastrophic can happen in this context which makes the current MMO formula of limited zones and "end game" content involving raids which don't affect the "real world".

    But then again, these aren't necessarily problems, more just an evolution of the MMO genre and WOW itself.

    Pretty good article on the state of MMOs:

    techraptor.net /content/seven-sins-mmorpgs-part-1
    Last edited by InfiniteCharger; 2016-10-03 at 02:56 AM.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrenna View Post
    I can't imagine how the game can possibly be dumber now, when dps rotation was hitting 1 button that throws a missile, may it be frost bolt, fire bolt or shadow bolt.

    Sure you had lots of spells, most of which were utterly pointless because they dealt next to no damage in the wrong spec, or worse, took up a debuff slot on raid bosses, (back when you couldn't apply unlimited number of debuffs, which was SO MUCH FUN for sure btw).

    Talents offered an illusion of choice, with some talents mandatory while others were outright pointless and impossible to use in any build. Waiting 50+ levels to get your spec's signature move made the game slow and clunky.

    All WoW has lost is archaic game mechanics.
    Classic was a single viable talent spec per class and 1-3 buttons, tops.

    I was Shadow Mastery/Ruin most of classic, you threw up a couple of dots and fell alseep on Shadowbolt.

    Classic nostalgia, as someone who bought the game a week after launch, has and always will be horseshit.

  20. #320
    Stood in the Fire Chloral's Avatar
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    If you guys hate what the game has become why don't you just LEAVE? Crazy, I know right.

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