Resto: Ignore Haste Entirely?

[Chiquihuite]

It feels like with this expansion a lot of factors have come together to make Haste a LOT less attractive than it has been in the past. I've started to move away from it more and more on gear (down to 7% Haste now) and I really haven't noticed any big drawback to doing so. I don't have hard data to back it up, but I'm at a point now where I feel like I could just ignore Haste on gear entirely and go straight Crit/Mastery.

-Queen Ascendant and Tidal Chains both devalue Haste severely, and at the same time make Crit much more attractive.
-Large HP pools and smoother incoming damage make it easier to abuse our Mastery. This in turn synergizes much better with Crit than Haste.

The only thing that gives me pause here is the interaction between Haste and HoT effects. Does anyone have rough numbers on just how much Haste affects these? (Riptide, HST, etc)

[Deleted]

Haste is the worst stat for resto, avoid it if you can

[Larynx]

Haste is the worst stat for resto, avoid it if you can

Versatility says sup.

Does anyone have rough numbers on just how much Haste affects these? (Riptide, HST, etc)

Intuitively. 10% haste is a 10% healing increase to any periodic effect, in addition to reducing the GCD/Cast time, so haste double dips into these. It's still not enough healing to make haste outweigh the throughput and HPM benefits of crit though. Haste is only ever more HPS than crit if you're global locked for a fight, and, well, a lot of fights you're not going to be global locked or you'll be forced to conserve mana through more efficient spell selection. Crit is ideal here. When we get more crit and don't care about mana as much, haste will be much better.

for the claim about haste and being global locked, in a 10 second period you can cast 2 riptides and 3 HWs with 1 second of dead time. Unless you can fill that dead time and cast another HW, haste is having zero HPS benefit for your total healing done outside whatever benefit you're getting from the HoT portion of Riptide. Haste only increases HPS if you don't have enough time to cast all the spells your mana allows for.

Queen Ascendant and Tidal Chains both devalue Haste severely

These two passives do not scale with haste in any way.

Cast time is determined by the formula: Base/(1+Haste). QA and TW are independent of this, and simply change the base cast time. It's simply Base(1-Mod) = New Base used for the haste formula.

eg. 25% haste and a 30% mod being used for HW.

2.5(1-0.3) = 1.75

1.75/(1+0.25) = 1.4 cast time. 25% reduction.

Or,

2.5/(1+0.25) = 2.0 cast time. Also a 25% reduction.

QA actually devalues crit in some ways, not haste. If QA reduces the cast time of a spell below your GCD, then the effective cast time is still your GCD. This happens specifically for Healing Surge, since it's a 1.5s base cast time. I was actually incorrect when I said that haste doesn't scale with QA/TW. It actually does, and it's only positive, but only for this very very minor situation. HS with 15% QA is 1.28s cast time, which is around 17% haste, after which QA no longer benefits from haste.

edit: The same applies for HW actually, if QA and TW stack. Depending on how they interact, that's either 1.15s or 1.29s cast time. A 1.15s base cast time spell would require 30% haste before the GCD matched the cast time and you'd get the full value out of QA+TW.

[Chiquihuite]

Oh interesting. I hadn't considered the interaction of QA with HS and reducing the cast time below the GCD (as QA isn't technically Haste). I'll keep that in mind.

Thanks for the detailed answer!

[Deleted]

I dont agree. i think haste is more valuable than crit, we already have crit from talents and artifact. Resurgence is kinda weak. mastery/haste is better. scales with HR, Riptide, HST. We sit at 5% base Crit, and have a lot of additive bonuses to Crit which makes it less valuable to begin.

[nomorepriest]

Versatility says sup.



Intuitively. 10% haste is a 10% healing increase to any periodic effect, in addition to reducing the GCD/Cast time, so haste double dips into these. It's still not enough healing to make haste outweigh the throughput and HPM benefits of crit though. Haste is only ever more HPS than crit if you're global locked for a fight, and, well, a lot of fights you're not going to be global locked or you'll be forced to conserve mana through more efficient spell selection. Crit is ideal here. When we get more crit and don't care about mana as much, haste will be much better.

for the claim about haste and being global locked, in a 10 second period you can cast 2 riptides and 3 HWs with 1 second of dead time. Unless you can fill that dead time and cast another HW, haste is having zero HPS benefit for your total healing done outside whatever benefit you're getting from the HoT portion of Riptide. Haste only increases HPS if you don't have enough time to cast all the spells your mana allows for.



These two passives do not scale with haste in any way.

Cast time is determined by the formula: Base/(1+Haste). QA and TW are independent of this, and simply change the base cast time. It's simply Base(1-Mod) = New Base used for the haste formula.

eg. 25% haste and a 30% mod being used for HW.

2.5(1-0.3) = 1.75

1.75/(1+0.25) = 1.4 cast time. 25% reduction.

Or,

2.5/(1+0.25) = 2.0 cast time. Also a 25% reduction.

QA actually devalues crit in some ways, not haste. If QA reduces the cast time of a spell below your GCD, then the effective cast time is still your GCD. This happens specifically for Healing Surge, since it's a 1.5s base cast time. I was actually incorrect when I said that haste doesn't scale with QA/TW. It actually does, and it's only positive, but only for this very very minor situation. HS with 15% QA is 1.28s cast time, which is around 17% haste, after which QA no longer benefits from haste.

edit: The same applies for HW actually, if QA and TW stack. Depending on how they interact, that's either 1.15s or 1.29s cast time. A 1.15s base cast time spell would require 30% haste before the GCD matched the cast time and you'd get the full value out of QA+TW.

So what would you recommend for critical and haste soft.caps?

I'm currently like
95.5 mast
21.3% critical
And 7.4% haste

I have not fully gemmed or enchanted.
I am actually still using a 840 ring over a 865 ring because it has critical and vers on it(865) vs my criteria mast on my 840 ring

[Larynx]

So what would you recommend for critical and haste soft.caps?

I'm currently like
95.5 mast
21.3% critical
And 7.4% haste

I have not fully gemmed or enchanted.
I am actually still using a 840 ring over a 865 ring because it has critical and vers on it(865) vs my criteria mast on my 840 ring

I'd say any sort of haste breakpoint pursued based upon the synergy with QA or TW is just not really very worthwhile. Just stick with Mastery > Crit > Haste as a priority. In 5 mans, or with extensive usage of CW+HS in raids, would haste ever really start to matter over Crit imo. As you get more crit, haste becomes more valuable, so this might not hold true once everyone has more gear.

[Deleted]

Haste comes with the considerable downside of increasing expenditure for very little throughput gain in situations when it matters, it's not worth it for a serious progression raider