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  1. #1
    Deleted

    Dear Blizzard - A few comments on your PvE balance pass, Warrior PoV

    Dear Blizzard,

    At this point I can't justify bringing a Warrior (myself) to our Top20 Mythic Progression anymore. Our niche dps (single target) was rightfully brought down, but by far too much and at the cost of already shaky gameplay (tactitian resets). We're lackluster in pratical appliance on most encounters in Emerald Nightmare Mythic, and are quickly outmatched once AoE/burst cleave is introduced on an encounter - or by one of many melee punishing mechanics leading to minor/massive downtime.
    The nerf did not compensate in these areas, nor did it take into account that there are no true Single Target fights in Mythic (even Ursoc demands cleave/AoE). Somehow though, Single Target SIMs (performed by a robot in near uptimum conditions) seems to be the determining factor at play in your tuning pass (Arms PoV), and not the grand total in diverse encounters, mechanics and class requirements.

    Ultimately, I'd bring myself only because of my capacity as a raid leader and tactician. My class is no longer desired (nor is my Havoc, Enhance and Unholy - who I've also prepared based on beta test raids/gameplay) and I find myself too demotivated to compete as a guild, without the ability to compete as an individual.
    On a personal level (to top it all of) trinkets, legendaries and gear have all eluded me, despite insane levels of preparation, loot funneling split raids and enormous time spend ingame. I guess that is what the element of RNG does to the unfortunate bell-curve outliers.

    It's not too late to realise that the change in the PvE pass was excessive, given the grand scheme of things, and revert/half-way revert/alternate changes, so that you're not left with loyal and enthusiastic, yet discouraged and demotivated players.

    Sincerely yours,

    Falken

    Warrior and Raid Leader
    Ðanish Terrace, EU, Sylvanas.

    This post have been shared here too: http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613472310
    Last edited by mmoc578f81469a; 2016-09-25 at 04:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Well said and most unfortunate. I feel your pain as a raider and as an Arms Warrior for the past 10 years.

  3. #3
    Well as someone in a somewhat similar situation I appreciate the attempt despite the futility especially on the eu forums and with the legions of retards claiming arms is still good.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2016-09-25 at 04:25 PM.

  4. #4
    I'm honestly distressed. I don't even see how I'll be in for progression even in my mediocre top 50 US guild. It's pathetic the gameplay choices they've made for Warriors in legion.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    I've been waiting for someone like Falken to post this and I support this initiative at 100%.

    Thank you mate.

    It would be nice if all the discouraged and demotivated warriors (or else) could "up" this thread. It's a good initiative, far away from all the emotional reactions we've been reading in the couple of days. Maybe it gets noticed, maybe not. but at least we are doing a little something to counter this very "weird" hotfixe.

  6. #6
    Best post I've seen on it. The biggest issue is that the EM fights are poor for arms and we are only being propped up by our high single target damage. Without that we're awful. Can we get it on US forums and push it like warlocks do?

  7. #7
    I can agree with the sentiment, but not everything included therein. Arms Single Target was too high and needed to be brought down. The Exploit change was necessary because that trait was far too powerful in relation to the others, though the resulting loss in gameplay was a negative that wasn't needed. The better option would have been to tune down FR further (say 20-25%), tune down Exploit as they did, and then buff the base chance of Tactician slightly to make up for the average loss from Exploit, thereby accomplishing the goals of the nerf, but retaining the gameplay.

    Now concerning Arms balance specifically, I'll reiterate: it's single target was inordinately too high, and extraordinary single target is not an excuse for low multi-target. I'll also point out that Arms does have multi-target potential, albeit on a long cooldown, and some of the best 2-target cleave in the game.

    Here's the thing people seem to forget (or like to ignore): Single Target is always useful, Multi-target is not. Even in a heavy cleave fight, there's almost always a single target boss that needs to die, and total DPS isn't always a good measurement of actual performance. A simple example of this would be Immerseus - lots of AoE, and AoE classes might look considerably more powerful than a single target class, but the adds don't really need to die. Killing them (talking about the AoE pack, not the split phase adds) doesn't do anything to hasten the end of the fight other than take minor pressure off tanks. Thus their inflated DPS isn't really important. Just like pure single-target may be a bad measurement for overall balance, DPS isn't always a good measurement of contribution to success.

    The TLDR here is not not equate total DPS with performance. If another class is doing 100k higher DPS on Elerethe Renferal, but substantially less single target to the boss, there's still very much a place for the lower DPS - higher single target player, as the adds only need to die fast enough to adhere to mechanics, while the boss needs to die to end the encounter. To even more TLDR it: Good multi-target is sometimes useful, good single-target is always useful.

    The real problem in my opinion are the classes that do everything very well. Fire Mages, Windwalker Monks, and Outlaw Rogues are good examples of specs which flat out excel in every area, which is what causes the greatest disparity in balance.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I'll also point out that Arms does have multi-target potential, albeit on a long cooldown,
    I still don't get that part. You need four cooldowns to deal slightly more aoe damage than say a uh and that if the adds last pretty much exactly for the duration of bladestorm. Where is that potential ?

  9. #9
    Deleted
    But we are warriors, we are not suposed to top on anything, its too much that we were toping metters on Mannoroth with 1skill

  10. #10
    Is this the internet gaming idiot version of a wallstreet guy jumping out a window or what?

    Oh hey by the way this is mmo-champion not the battle.net forums. Wrong place to complain. Do you go to the hospital to protest the banking practices that put america in recession?

    Infracted
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2016-09-26 at 04:08 AM.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Your shooting yourself in the foot playing dps warrior as raid leader.
    Warriors has always been solid tanks trough most content released, the same cannot be said for dps.

  12. #12
    FalkenRaiding did post it on the Blizz forums. It helps to read the entire post…

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ehxy View Post
    Is this the internet gaming idiot version of a wallstreet guy jumping out a window or what?

    Oh hey by the way this is mmo-champion not the battle.net forums. Wrong place to complain. Do you go to the hospital to protest the banking practices that put america in recession?
    Not sure why you think that, given that this is a forum for the discussion of WoW, and in particular the Warrior class; but hey, thanks for your worthless contribution to the discussion!

  14. #14
    Our two target cleave comes at a significant cost though, to the point where you can barely justify using in on any of the current fights. Maybe in Mythic the situation will change, but atm I can't think of a fight in EN where SS is clearly superior to dauntless. Cenarius and Xavius are 50/50 as far as I can tell. If I'm wrong I'd be happy to hear it. But it means we're stuck with our single target.

  15. #15
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    Slightly frustrating seeing people avoid the spec's consistency issues when talking about its outlier ST DPS.

    Yes, focused rage ST DPS is very high - sometimes. That really isn't the spec's average performance though. You're rolling the dice on every pull. If you a) don't proc tactician consistently, b) don't proc tactician at the right time (e.g. to line up correctly with every single BC without having to delay BC), and c) have really shitty crit streaks outside of BC, then your DPS isn't likely to be anything worth talking about.

    Nerf FR damage, fine - but please normalize consistency in the process. Otherwise, the nerfs are going to bring down the outlier parses to something more "acceptable" with the side-effect of making the spec's average performance unnecessarily worse.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Not sure why you think that, given that this is a forum for the discussion of WoW, and in particular the Warrior class; but hey, thanks for your worthless contribution to the discussion!
    It's pretty simple support@blizzard.com is the email address.

    More dramatic than the combination of Stormwind and Barrens chat combined.

    /tears

  17. #17
    While I agree with OP, melee will absolutely never need to cleave or aoe on Ursoc.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    If someone told me how to play I'd show them a simulation dps graph made out of dick pics.

  18. #18
    I just don't see how these posts will accomplish anything sadly, I mean we've made them before to no avail. We've gone the way of classes with just straight QQ to no avail. What's left to do? The sad thing is both specs are in a bad place realistically, both with major gameplay and mechanical flaws, it's too bad there's too much infighting within our own class to come together to get it all fixed. This is the only class I play anymore, and I 100% feel as though I made the wrong choice, not only playing a warrior but allowing myself to be convinced they'd make the game better this time around.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ehxy View Post
    Is this the internet gaming idiot version of a wallstreet guy jumping out a window or what?

    Oh hey by the way this is mmo-champion not the battle.net forums. Wrong place to complain. Do you go to the hospital to protest the banking practices that put america in recession?
    Quote Originally Posted by FalkenRaiding View Post
    This post have been shared here too: http://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613472310
    I don't even need a cheeky observation.

  20. #20
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    Literally the only thing we can do as dps warriors is being a Rallying bot but that doesn't outweigh the lack of damage that comes with it. It's frustrating to be so useless. Even more so as Fury who trails behind nearly every single spec while taking bigger hits for playing optimally.

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