I really love outlaw rogue - there is onle one thing i would change...

[Sephiroso]

You seem really tense/judgmental. I'm glad I don't know you IRL or have to deal with you on VOIP.

I certainly don't think everyone who wants the very-lame-feeling of re-rolling the same buff is bad and needs to L2P.

Don't wanna roll? SnD is always there waiting for you. Assassination/Sub are looking pretty good right now too.

[Tyrarolls]

Don't wanna roll? SnD is always there waiting for you. Assassination/Sub are looking pretty good right now too.

i think everyone has his own opinion but your statement is just to provoke/annoy people.
i don't feel like ppl in this thread cry about rng...however i wouldnt agree with rolling only 2/3 buffs and remove 1 and 6.
for me the current mechanics are fine and - as i said - me for example understood rtb quite well and im doing good rankings/dps left and right.... but still rolling a buff into the same buff seems like a small thing that could be change imo.

other rogues got other ideas how to make it more enjoyable/less frustrating but overall i think its stupid to say "deal with it or choose snd" ...nothing wrong with giving feedback/sharing thoughts about what could be done better

[Deleted]

Crying about completely changing RTB to always give 2 rolls is qq to me. RTB doesn't need to be changed. You still do acceptable dps even if you no-brained using RTB. You do competitive/top-tier when you actually know what you're doing. No, they shouldn't make it impossible to roll the same buff twice in a row. It's just fine the way it is.

You lower the reward when you lower the risk. No one who knows how to actually play an outlaw rogue wants that. The only ones that do are the ones who either A. should learn how to play or B. should play another spec.

Outlaw ain't some hard to play spec with alot of depth, most of it is just RNG, and the difference between good and bad rolls are way to high. No matter how skilled u are you will always be a bitch to the RNG, and can be out-damaged by a worse player who rolls "better". Both Assa and the old Combat had way more depth to it, Outlaw is just really stupid and unfun in Raids, It's pretty fun in Dungeons and PvP though.

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The qq is so real in this thread. Jesus christ. When will you people learn, if you wanna play Outlaw, LEARN HOW TO ROLL or play another spec. Stop blaming your dps on bad rolls because it isn't the rolls thats the problem. It's your rotation and or rolling that's holding you back.

"LEARN HOW TO ROLL", really dude. Most retarded statement in this thread. Outlaw has a very low skill cap when it comes to Raiding and the RNG factor is to high, RtB needs to be gone and replaced with a better system (like the old Combat red buff). Player skill becomes irrelevant when ur a bitch to this much RNG.

[Thagrynor]

The qq is so real in this thread. Jesus christ. When will you people learn, if you wanna play Outlaw, LEARN HOW TO ROLL or play another spec. Stop blaming your dps on bad rolls because it isn't the rolls thats the problem. It's your rotation and or rolling that's holding you back.

Aside from the fact that you are way more worked up about this than needs to be, I am confused. "Stop blaming your dps on bad rolls" followed immediately by "It's your rotation and/or rolling that's holding you back." ... So, rolling isn't what is causing low DPS, but it could be rolling that is causing bad DPS? ummmm ... what?

[Sephiroso]

Aside from the fact that you are way more worked up about this than needs to be, I am confused. "Stop blaming your dps on bad rolls" followed immediately by "It's your rotation and/or rolling that's holding you back." ... So, rolling isn't what is causing low DPS, but it could be rolling that is causing bad DPS? ummmm ... what?

So, it would have read better if i said "It's your rolling and/or your rotation that's holding you back" even though both mean the exact same thing?

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Outlaw ain't some hard to play spec with alot of depth, most of it is just RNG, and the difference between good and bad rolls are way to high. No matter how skilled u are you will always be a bitch to the RNG, and can be out-damaged by a worse player who rolls "better". Both Assa and the old Combat had way more depth to it, Outlaw is just really stupid and unfun in Raids, It's pretty fun in Dungeons and PvP though.

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"LEARN HOW TO ROLL", really dude. Most retarded statement in this thread. Outlaw has a very low skill cap when it comes to Raiding and the RNG factor is to high, RtB needs to be gone and replaced with a better system (like the old Combat red buff). Player skill becomes irrelevant when ur a bitch to this much RNG.

RtB is the definition of depth. Never said Outlaw was hard to play, but it is hard to master. Just look no further than the million and three posts about "hurrdurr my dps sucks FUCK OUTLAW FUCK RNG Ass here i come!!!"

The mastering of Outlaw essentially comes in learning how to roll. Look at Ursoc Heroic, number 2 rogue only used RtB 10 times in the fight, did he get 6 buffs consecutively? Nope. Look at his buffs. And he was still number 2. It comes in knowing WHEN to reroll depending on the situation and when to just keep hold of what you have. Also rotational stuff matters too, just not as much as rolls because people just loooove to follow the "+2 buff rule" without thinking.

[Deleted]

If you get the extra CP buff even if it is single you still roll like a truck and hit hard same with energy so if you get certain buffs you still can generate really good numbers.

[Maelstrom51]

http://m.imgur.com/ham53aX?r

Notice that this is not a simple bar graph. It's a box plot. Also notice that the box for Outlaw rogue is the largest of any spec or class. Know why that is? RtB RNG.

Even with perfect play RtB RNG makes a massive difference. This isn't really something to argue about.

You can argue whether it's good or bad or fun or not to have the crazy RNG that Outlaw has, but it's undeniable that the spec is massively influenced by RNG.

[Deleted]

So, it would have read better if i said "It's your rolling and/or your rotation that's holding you back" even though both mean the exact same thing?

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RtB is the definition of depth. Never said Outlaw was hard to play, but it is hard to master. Just look no further than the million and three posts about "hurrdurr my dps sucks FUCK OUTLAW FUCK RNG Ass here i come!!!"

The mastering of Outlaw essentially comes in learning how to roll. Look at Ursoc Heroic, number 2 rogue only used RtB 10 times in the fight, did he get 6 buffs consecutively? Nope. Look at his buffs. And he was still number 2. It comes in knowing WHEN to reroll depending on the situation and when to just keep hold of what you have. Also rotational stuff matters too, just not as much as rolls because people just loooove to follow the "+2 buff rule" without thinking.

Let me clarify, Yes there is some skillcap to rolling, Yes the rotation matters, it's really simple but people can still mess it up. The problem with Outlaw is that no matter how you spin it, you can never escape the fact that you are a slave to RNG when it comes to RtB. No matter how good you are at knowing what buffs to keep and what to reroll on, there's still buffs that are way better then other buffs, and when you don't get them you do way less damage then you could. Now if u look at the simcraft results you will see that the bad and good RNG does even out eventually, but the difference between good RtB RNG and bad RtB RNG is way to high. This becomes frustrating for progression and going for big logs because you will need the luck to be on your side if you want good results, way more so then other classes/specs. You can learn to deal with the RNG, but you can never control it.

[Sephiroso]

Let me clarify, Yes there is some skillcap to rolling, Yes the rotation matters, it's really simple but people can still mess it up. The problem with Outlaw is that no matter how you spin it, you can never escape the fact that you are a slave to RNG when it comes to RtB. No matter how good you are at knowing what buffs to keep and what to reroll on, there's still buffs that are way better then other buffs, and when you don't get them you do way less damage then you could. Now if u look at the simcraft results you will see that the bad and good RNG does even out eventually, but the difference between good RtB RNG and bad RtB RNG is way to high. This becomes frustrating for progression and going for big logs because you will need the luck to be on your side if you want good results, way more so then other classes/specs. You can learn to deal with the RNG, but you can never control it.

Rng will be Rng but a good Outlaw player will never do bottom tier dps. This is where the disconnect is between us. You seem to think even a good or great player with Outlaw can still get fucked by rng and do shit dps. That just is not the case.

[Maelstrom51]

Rng will be Rng but a good Outlaw player will never do bottom tier dps. This is where the disconnect is between us. You seem to think even a good or great player with Outlaw can still get fucked by rng and do shit dps. That just is not the case.

My main complaint is that Outlaw has very little depth and is too reliant on RNG, even with perfect play. Its a very easy spec so between multiple Outlaw rogues the main deciding factor will be RtB RNG. The delta between a reasonable level of good or bad RNG (upper quartile, or about half fall into this range) is about 10%, with extremes going as far as 30%.

See here: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html

Note that in this specific example the best RNG sim is 60% ahead of the worst RNG sim, but that difference would be rarely ever seen, so I'm being more conservative.

[Deleted]

Rng will be Rng but a good Outlaw player will never do bottom tier dps. This is where the disconnect is between us. You seem to think even a good or great player with Outlaw can still get fucked by rng and do shit dps. That just is not the case.

If you talk about dps compared to other classes then I completely agree with you. Outlaw Rogues will be competetive no matter what you roll. The problem for me is when competing against other Outlaw Rogues. The deciding factor on the higher percentiles will most likely be more luck then skill. Which is always the case to some extent, but with Outlaw it's much more Rng then skill or clever play. RtB also makes the gameplay pretty boring in longer fights since your APM will fluctuate way to much, and it can become hard to get a nice flow in your rotation since some rolls slow you way down.

[Deleted]

The qq is so real in this thread. Jesus christ. When will you people learn, if you wanna play Outlaw, LEARN HOW TO ROLL or play another spec. Stop blaming your dps on bad rolls because it isn't the rolls thats the problem. It's your rotation and or rolling that's holding you back.

If you dont want to roll, play Assa. Assa is extremely strong on single target and outlaw isnt as overpowered as others claimed.

I think that roling for buffs is fun. In fact it is the only exciting part of the spec. Especially single target is stupid.

Id reconsider nerfing the duration of ROTB. Make it last only max 25 sec so that procs dont matter THAT much and tune around it. To offset the nerf give it some bad luck protection to make sure you get 2+ buffs if you rolled only 1 buff several times in a row.

Tha would require a lot of rebalancig and cant be hotfixed.

[Haaizor]

But rolling the same buff time and time again is fun!

[Phurox]

When I read the title, I just knew it was about RtB.

RtB is by far the worse mechanic that has ever been in World of Warcraft, period. There's no competition.

Rolling 5 times in a row only to get trash buffs are no fun. I admit, it gets fun when I roll and get all five buffs every 5th day or so, but thats about it.

Wish SnD was more reliable.

[RobertMugabe]

I would like it they buff to RTB that it gives other buffs a higher Chance to occur on the next roll.

Otherwise Outlaw is anyways the strongest rogue spec (and generally one of the strongest specs in-game) in PVE, especially on AOE/cleave-fights.

[Deleted]

RtB could use some tweaks, maybe the "not reroll the same buff twice in a row" would be enough though.
It's okay as it is.
Sure you can have problems with it's RNG but skill is still a huge involvement.
Every roll forces to make you a decision, when it's not a 3 or 6.

[arjc]

No what they should do is this

"Double or nothing" (sticks with fantasy)
Your first RtB cost no CP (still requires you to have CP)
And if you RtB again you lose your points. Nothing changes
Other than you get a second roll.

This way the DPS feels more fair, we're choosing to face RNG again or Run through, but the RNG factor is still a big play. And instead of wasting 12 CP for two, one rolls. It's only 6.

The way i would like it to work is that when out of combat, you have a free use of roll the bones, that resets in a similar fashion to Marked for Death.

[Thagrynor]

So, it would have read better if i said "It's your rolling and/or your rotation that's holding you back" even though both mean the exact same thing?

You do realize that my point is that the second statement directly contradicts your yelling at the poster in the first statement, right? You yell at them to stop bitching that the rolls are holding them back and then immediately tell them that the rolls are one of the things that could be holding them back. It would be like I told you to stop bitching that the sky is blue and then immediately said that the sky is blue or yellow. If you say "rotation and/or rolling holding you back", that implies you believe it is possible that it is SOLELY the rolling holding them back, but you just said to stop blaming their DPS on it. So which is it? Either the rolling isn't holding them back or it is possible it is. You don't get to have it both ways.

[Sephiroso]

You do realize that my point is that the second statement directly contradicts your yelling at the poster in the first statement, right? You yell at them to stop bitching that the rolls are holding them back and then immediately tell them that the rolls are one of the things that could be holding them back. It would be like I told you to stop bitching that the sky is blue and then immediately said that the sky is blue or yellow. If you say "rotation and/or rolling holding you back", that implies you believe it is possible that it is SOLELY the rolling holding them back, but you just said to stop blaming their DPS on it. So which is it? Either the rolling isn't holding them back or it is possible it is. You don't get to have it both ways.

So your posts were entirely pointless then? Got it.

[Thagrynor]

So your posts were entirely pointless then? Got it.

No, my posts were an attempt to understand wtf you are even saying. One cannot understand YOUR argument when you contradict yourself in the span of a whooping 2 sentences. Unless you are just talking out of your ass and trying to seem all internet badass by attempting to make someone else feel small for something that they simply don't care for. I mean, if that's the case, then at least just be up front about it, dude. That way people can more conveniently ignore you and your posts.