Call to topple Christopher Columbus statue from its Barcelona perch

[Shadowferal]

They certainly weren't in favor of a limited government

That's why they were called "neoconservative."

Bush and Co. were all signatories of the PNAC, a blueprint for the US to maintain world dominance, founded by right-wing shitflingers William Kristol and Robert Kagan. Their policy document "Rebuilding America's Defenses" was little more than a promotion for global military dominance.

Considering how much an inflated budget would have to be...they certainly weren't "conservative" by any means.

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people celebrate Mandela and mlk inspite of their flaws, Colombia should have been black so he could be an unjudgeable hero

Name such flaws that would equate to genocide and slavery.

I make no judgements as to the content of his character, but he was still an important historical figure, he did things which at least eventually resulted in some good, and it is indeed a nice statue. If that group wants to put up a monument to the slave trade, which I have no problem with, they've got plenty of places to put it that aren't on that statue's ruins. My two cents.

While I certainly don't argue over his historical significance, I would contend with your words "resulted in some good."

[Deletedaccount1]

In a way that's probably accurate. The Taino and the Caribs were almost all wiped out. And "opening the door" to exploitation led to the annihilation of over 90% of the population in North America, whole tribal regions were erased from existence in what followed. But I'm sure someone will argue that such was the natural process for what conquerors do...

It's not something we should cheer about however.

I agree with that but on a personal level, Columbus was not worse than Hitler. It isn't the fault of him personally that everything after him happened the way it did. His personal actions were deplorable but not on the level of Hitler.

[satimy]

That's why they were called "neoconservative."

Bush and Co. were all signatories of the PNAC, a blueprint for the US to maintain world dominance, founded by right-wing shitflingers William Kristol and Robert Kagan. Their policy document "Rebuilding America's Defenses" was little more than a promotion for global military dominance.

Considering how much an inflated budget would have to be...they certainly weren't "conservative" by any means.

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Name such flaws that would equate to genocide and slavery.


While I certainly don't argue over his historical significance, I would contend with your words "resulted in some good."

slavery and genocide both still happen today..... looks like that makes you a bad person because it's happening on your watch

[Aeula]

He discovered a nation, doesn't matter if you agree with what he did or not he should still be remembered.

[Nurvus]

Statues don't just commemorate. They keep record.
The statue of a tyrant or slave trader isn't a bad statue. It's a statue.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

George Bush was a liberal?
Cheney was a liberal?


We're not talking about everyone. We're talking about one person and what he really was in history.
So stop trying to derail that point.
After all had it been anyone else we wouldn't be talking about him.

Sigh, the point is, if you refused to acknowledge the accomplishments of any historical figure that participated in conquest, plunder and slavery, you'd pretty much have to take down every statue that depicted anyone before 1833. Stop judging the man against modern value systems and recognize his significant contributions to world history. If that is impossible for you, at least apply equal hatred for all the black, brown and mongoloid peoples who did the exact same crimes at the exact same time. The most frustrating thing about your outrage, is how selective you are in applying it.

[Shadowferal]

slavery and genocide both still happen today..... looks like that makes you a bad person because it's happening on your watch

Why yes they do still happen today.
And 9/11 happened on Bush's watch. So I guess that makes neocons...and republicans bad people. Well, if not bad, then certainly stupid.

He discovered a nation, doesn't matter if you agree with what he did or not he should still be remembered.

No.
He revealed a land where people already lived and thrived.

If that is impossible for you, at least apply equal hatred for all the black, brown and mongoloid peoples who did the exact same crimes at the exact same time. The most frustrating thing about your outrage, is how selective you are in applying it.

I assure you I'm only being "selective" because that's where the topic is. (I give you Bartolomé de las Casas who witnessed first hand. He was a willing participant at first. And even promoted African slave labor.)

Wait until we hit "Thanksgiving" and all the silly myth-making that went into that.

[Aeula]

Why yes they do still happen today.
And 9/11 happened on Bush's watch. So I guess that makes neocons...and republicans bad people. Well, if not bad, then certainly stupid.


No.
He revealed a land where people already lived and thrived.


I assure you I'm only being "selective" because that's where the topic is. (I give you Bartolomé de las Casas who witnessed first hand. He was a willing participant at first. And even promoted African slave labor.)

Wait until we hit "Thanksgiving" and all the silly myth-making that went into that.

It was unknown to the western world. It's still important.

[nextormento]

No.
He revealed a land where people already lived and thrived.

That is discovering the land and the Arawak nation(s) that thrived on it.
It's one thing to delineate the context of it all; denying that it was a discovery is beyond silly.

[JohnBrown1917]

He discovered a nation, doesn't matter if you agree with what he did or not he should still be remembered.

That is not how it works, it was not a nation then, He discovered the Americas to the europeans. And some people from Catalonia do not consider him to be part of their culture, thats why they want it removed, its spanish culture(to them).

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I like how all of this is just discussing Columbus as a bloke, and nothing to do with him and his ties to Barcelona. Or why the statue is even there in the first place. Or whether it should be taken down or not.

Atleast some of us try, but MMO likes to focus on the unimporftant parts.

[Deleted]

Yes, lets start changing history to say that no one ever did anything bad.

[JohnBrown1917]

Oh I do not mind them having their independence.
I was just curious if the usual hypocrites would roast Catalan same way they do UK.

Not really sure how they relate though, the UK has always been independent.

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Yes, lets start changing history to say that no one ever did anything bad.

Missing the point by a mile.

[Belize]

No.
He revealed a land where people already lived and thrived.

"Lived and thrived"

Well, I mean, some of them lived. The other half had their heart ripped out...

[Deleted]

Sigh, the point is, if you refused to acknowledge the accomplishments of any historical figure that participated in conquest, plunder and slavery, you'd pretty much have to take down every statue that depicted anyone before 1833.

What's the problem with that?

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If that is impossible for you, at least apply equal hatred for all the black, brown and mongoloid peoples who did the exact same crimes at the exact same time. The most frustrating thing about your outrage, is how selective you are in applying it.

I agree we should take down all those statues of Mugabe and African warlords that don't exist.

[Belize]

Might as well rip down the pyramids guys. They were build on the backs of slave forced labor.

[nextormento]

its spanish culture(to them).

This has not been shown to be the case.
These people don't seem interested in that strategy at all. In fact, they don't even invoke nationalism as their ideology, but independentism, unlike the other nationalist parties in Catalonia.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

What's the problem with that?

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I agree we should take down all those statues of Mugabe and African warlords that don't exist.

Good, and while we're at it let's tear down all statues of the Kings of the Upper and Lower Nile that do exist.

[Shadowferal]

It was unknown to the western world. It's still important.

You might want to expand your perspective. Because I assure that the people in the "western world" (y'know...the first Americans) likely felt pretty comfortable where they were.

That is discovering the land and the Arawak nation(s) that thrived on it.
It's one thing to delineate the context of it all; denying that it was a discovery is beyond silly.

You can't "discover" something that people already know exist.
Just because you don't want to believe that the Native Americans were people, and thus that don't count, doesn't make your argument any less silly.

Might as well rip down the pyramids guys. They were build on the backs of slave forced labor.

That's actually false.

Slaves didn't build pyramids

Latest find proves that ancient pyramid workers were paid laborers.
Egypt displayed on Monday newly discovered tombs more than 4,000 years old and said they belonged to people who worked on the Great Pyramids of Giza, presenting the discovery as more evidence that slaves did not build the ancient monuments.

The ancient Greek historian Herodotus once described the pyramid builders as slaves, creating what Egyptologists say is a myth later propagated by Hollywood films.

Graves of the pyramid builders were first discovered in the area in 1990 when a tourist on horseback stumbled over a wall that later proved to be a tomb. Egypt's archaeology chief Zahi Hawass said that discovery and the latest finds last week show that the workers were paid laborers, rather than the slaves of popular imagination.
Hawass told reporters at the site that the find, first announced on Sunday, sheds more light on the lifestyle and origins of the pyramid builders. Most importantly, he said the workers were not recruited from slaves commonly found across Egypt during pharaonic times.

Dieter Wildung, a former director of Berlin's Egyptian Museum, said it is "common knowledge in serious Egyptology" that the pyramid builders were not slaves and that the construction of the pyramids and the story of the Israelites in Egypt were separated by hundreds of years.

"The myth of the slaves building pyramids is only the stuff of tabloids and Hollywood," Wildung told The Associated Press by telephone. "The world simply could not believe the pyramids were build without oppression and forced labor, but out of loyalty to the pharaohs."

Hawass said the builders came from poor Egyptian families from the north and the south, and were respected for their work — so much so that those who died during construction were bestowed the honor of being buried in the tombs near the sacred pyramids of their pharaohs.
Their proximity to the pyramids and the manner of burial in preparation for the afterlife backs this theory, Hawass said.
"No way would they have been buried so honorably if they were slaves," he said.

[nextormento]

You can't "discover" something that people already know exist.
Just because you don't want to believe that the Native Americans were people, and thus that don't count, doesn't make your argument any less silly.

Not only we can, we do it all the time. I remember when I discovered neoplasticism; what a joyous day.
"Discovering" has context, and a target it applies to. Colon discovered the Americas to the crown of Spain, and thus to the western world who were unaware of it, and set in motion massive changes that rippled through history.
Just because you obtusely disguise your argument as pedantry doesn't prevent the vast majority of people to understand what's being said. Your injection remains being incredibly silly.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

He discovered a nation, doesn't matter if you agree with what he did or not he should still be remembered.

Greeks and Arabs knew about north america from the dawn of their civilization, including crude maps of the coastline.

Scandinavians had traveled to canada 1000 years before Europa was even a thing.

They even traded milk with the natives, which made them sick and ruined negotiations.

__________________

Christopher Columbus on the other hand massacred Millions of natives, and those who lived but would not submit to bondage had their hands cut off.

He cut off their hands.

Even Hitler let the jews keep their hands.

___________

You don't have to forget him, but you shouldn't honor him. There's no Hitler statues in Poland and Russia.

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It was unknown to the western world. It's still important.

You're an idiot. The western World knew about it, that's the whole reason they chartered Columbus, to stake a claim in a land that they already knew was there.

You wouldn't spend the equivalent of millions of dollars just in the hope that something is there.

What a huge piece of shit you've turned out to be.

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He was bad but in no way was he as bad as Hitler.

Because they weren't white?

Because it wasn't linked to a World war where white European soldiers died?

This was a native american holocaust.

Which Holocaust is worse? Answer carefully because you will have to live with that answer the rest of your life.

infracted - minor flaming