[Enhancement Feedback] Doom Vortex and Aoe talents

[Deleted]

Snip

You know, he's just gonna come in here and tell you that they stacked versatility and because that up's their utility by 1%, that means the raid leader's hand was forced to put them in the main raid.

[Imnick]

You know, he's just gonna come in here and tell you that they stacked versatility and because that up's their utility by 1%, that means the raid leader's hand was forced to put them in the main raid.

I know what he's going to say, it's not important.
As I've said before, the only meaningful thing to do here is to make sure it's absolutely clear that the nonsense he is typing has no bearing on reality so that nobody actually tries to imitate his advice.
I think he's doing a pretty good job of that without any help, but it's good to be certain.

He isn't going to stop. I don't know what his actual motive is, but whether he's just a troll or if he is sincere in his bizarre beliefs, he's still not going to bother listening to reason.
Just make sure that other people are protected from for one second actually believing what he's saying might be worth listening to.

[Hothgor]

We're waiting for any dissenting commenter to actually provide anything of consequence. Trying to distract the issue with "logs and sims" is only reinforcing my point.

Here is the REVISED takedown of FAILstorm to give it a "best case scenario" review:

Hailstorm does not buff the initial damage of FB which is the bulk of the damage being attributed to FB+HS.

To calculate the true DPS of hailstorm, you are going to have to factor in the total number of WEAPON ATTACKS that occur over a period of time.

Base Weapon Damage: 6,500 (artifact at 850 ilvl, no attack power)
Avg Weapon Damage: 22,000 (21,000 attack power)

Let's say 200 weapon attacks occur over 300 sec (aka 5 mins), Hailstorm provided damage is only this:

(22,000 * 0.35) = (7,700 * 200) = 1,540,000 total (5,133 DPS)

1.5M damage is about 5 non-crit stormstrikes or 2 crit stormstrikes.

Let's say you double the total weapon attacks to 400 for that same 5 min period:

3M dmg (10,266 DPS)

Even if we scale those up with 70% mastery:

200 hits = 5,133 * 1.7 = 8,726 DPS
400 hits = 10,266 * 1.7 = 17,452 DPS

Even with 400 weapon attacks in 300 sec and 70% mastery, hailstorm would be ONLY 6% of your DPS, yet a +10% buff to haste is almost a 1:1 DPS correlation, that would yield nearly 10% more DPS. By choosing hailstorm you are giving up as much as 8% or more of your DPS for a more complicated and clunky rotation.

Additionally, the damage from hailstorm does not contribute to maelstrom generation or stormbringer procs, while additional haste does, and +10% haste increases the frequency of all attacks, so that even a static proc rate will result in more procs as more attacks occur in the same period of time. The real DPS loss from choosing haste over failstorm that some claim to see is more likely than not players who are slow rather than a sub-optimal character configuration.

If your average DPS is 250K, hailstorm would need to provide 25K DPS on its own to BREAK EVEN. Read that twice - because breaking even is NOT an improvement! And if you dumped most of your secondary stats into mastery and chose hailstorm, your weapon speeds are going to be 2.4-2.6 per sec instead of 2 sec or lower because you'll be woefully low on haste.

People who claim that one has to rely on "sims" or logs to see this are simply in denial, or are willfully pushing BAD information.

This really is the end of the thread...but I'm for beating that horse....

Any log you look at on Warcraftlogs will show Hailstorm doing ~15% damage, not ~6% damage.

[Deleted]

Any log you look at on Warcraftlogs will show Hailstorm doing ~15% damage, not ~6% damage.

Correct, he seems to think the majority of the damage from HS is from the attack itself which is funny, since most of the damage is in the buff itself because it synergies with pretty much all of our attacks.

[Devious009]

Guys stop feeding the troll seriously and let's talk about the actual topic? We can come up with ideas to improve enhancement's AoE instead of wasting time and energy on thus guy.

Doom vortex needs a radius increase

Give enhancement the earthquake spell from our elemental brothers, to me that is the best and easiest change they can do since the spell is readily available and shouldn't be too difficult to make it available to enhance.

Thoughts?

[Deleted]

Same guy that was saying that Elemental Blast was Enhancement top talent from the 90 row in WoD endgame.

[Mindcloud]

Hoenstly, no trolling you guys are insane. Enhance AOE is good, not amazing or great, but it's more then fine for anything and we are in such a good spot right now for you dudes to complain is brain breaking.

[Egor2765]

Hoenstly, no trolling you guys are insane. Enhance AOE is good, not amazing or great, but it's more then fine for anything and we are in such a good spot right now for you dudes to complain is brain breaking.

I don't think it's about the numbers, but rather the mechanics and having those golden traits supposed to be something you look forward to, while in fact it's something that doesn't really do much.

[Devious009]

Who's complaining? Like egor above me said it's not about the numbers but rather the mechanic .. enhancement doesn't really have an AoE ability / spell in the true sense. That's why I suggested we borrow earthquake from elemental.

[Imnick]

I don't really want Earthquake, and Enhancement does already have an aoe button (Crash Lightning) that you can even dump maelstrom onto for aoe burst.
I think the real issue is that because CL is so good for our single target (and because sundering annoys the other melee) it is impossible to pick the two more aoe oriented talents, especially the one that is explicitly for sustained area damage.

Enhancement is really good right now, its biggest design issue is simply that the talents are quite rigid.


Doom Vortex is also complete shit but I don't really know if I want them to make it a full aoe ability, it's already weird that we use CL in single target, I don't want the other Maelstrom dump's role to be similarly murky.

[Devious009]

I consider CL to be more of a cleave ability than AoE although it does currently fill the AoE category for enhancement because we simply don't have anything else!!

Earthquake perfectly fills that role imo and if not then we can think of better suggestions to help enhancement's AoE dilemma.

I agree Doom Vortex is shit but it can be improved or changed to something else completely we just have to figure out what exactly without making it OP

[ruiisu]

Hoenstly, no trolling you guys are insane. Enhance AOE is good, not amazing or great, but it's more then fine for anything and we are in such a good spot right now for you dudes to complain is brain breaking.

It is good, if you have feral spirits up... Then I can agree with you, and only then. You cant have your aoe linked in a major dps cd.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't really want Earthquake, and Enhancement does already have an aoe button (Crash Lightning) that you can even dump maelstrom onto for aoe burst.
I think the real issue is that because CL is so good for our single target (and because sundering annoys the other melee) it is impossible to pick the two more aoe oriented talents, especially the one that is explicitly for sustained area damage.

Enhancement is really good right now, its biggest design issue is simply that the talents are quite rigid.


Doom Vortex is also complete shit but I don't really know if I want them to make it a full aoe ability, it's already weird that we use CL in single target, I don't want the other Maelstrom dump's role to be similarly murky.

Yeah, thats what im saying in the first post. I really dislike the goodness of clash lightning having to compete with the other 2 possible choices for our real good Aoe Skills but they need to change the doom vortex design, that skill cant just be buffed, maybe they run out of ideias for shaman

[Deleted]

Did anybody tell The Professor that Hailstorm procs off *EVERY* weapon attack, not just auto attacks? I just had a look at our latest Ursoc kill. I did 383 swings in a ~3:45 minute fight, and Frostbrand did 9,91m damage in total. 660k of this damage was from Frostband itself, the remaining 9,25 million damage was from the buff.

17,68% of my damage was because of talented FB - if you take that away, I would obviously not be casting FB anymore (because why would I?), but you can't tell me that the 10% haste will make up for the 9,91m damage Frostbrand did.

Haste will increase your auto attack speed, your GCD and your cooldown of your Stormstrike - and while faster attacks might generate more Maelstrom, my melee attacks did around 3,07 million damage - adding 10% more attacks would bump the melee attack damage up to 3,377, so an additional 300k damage over a 3:45 minute fight.

We would get a few more Windfury Procs too, because of more auto attacks. Let's be generous and say that we are increasing our WF damage by 10% as well, which brings it from 4,39m to 4,83 million - another gain of 440k damage over a 3:45 minute fight.

So far, we have been generous and added 10% extra damage to auto attacks and windfury damage. We're at 740k damage so far, meaning we are still trying to find the remaining 9170000 damage we have lost by not taking Hailstorm.

10% haste would decrease our GCD slightly - I don't know the exact relationship between haste and GCD, but hey, lets go crazy and just bloody increase the damage of my abilities by 10%:

Total damage: 56,08 million
Minus Hailstorm: 46,17 million
Total damage from Stormstrike, Boulderfist, Windfury Attack, Melee, Crash Lightning: 31,63 million
Plus 10% to these: 3,163 million
Total damage if we are being stupidly generous: 46,17 + 3,163 = 49,333 million damage.

We are still about 6,7 million damage short of what we did when we used Hailstorm, and taking AS will not give you a 10% damage increase across the board - I was being generous because I can't do the proper math, but there's no way AS is going to give you the almost 10 million damage it produced in this fight.

Logs for those who care - sorry for napkin math: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=13

[ruiisu]

Guys stop feeding the troll seriously and let's talk about the actual topic? We can come up with ideas to improve enhancement's AoE instead of wasting time and energy on thus guy.

Doom vortex needs a radius increase

Give enhancement the earthquake spell from our elemental brothers, to me that is the best and easiest change they can do since the spell is readily available and shouldn't be too difficult to make it available to enhance.

Thoughts?

Yeah I agree, I really like the fiery tornadoes ideia, but they need to do something in aoe lol... You can't have small tornadoes and spect them to do any damage, right? xD

[Deleted]

So anyways, back on track a bit:

I posted this in The Professor's other post, but I think this might be a better place to put it, since it might spark a more constructive conversation: I might have an idea on how to fix both Lava Lash and Doom Vortex:

Switch the MS cost of CL and LL. What this would do is that we would NOT be using Crash Lightning on single target (very often) but instead just use Lava Lash instead.

Here is the damage done by the different abilities:

Crash Lightning: 100% damage (per target hit) = 5% damage per Maelstrom Spent
CL talented: 100% + 14 * 6 = 184% damage (per target hit) = 9,2% damage per MS spent
Lava Lash: 505% damage per hit = 16,83 - ah, but it's offhand damage, so divide it by two = 8,42% damage per MS spent

This is why, when we have the Crashing Storm talent, we only cast LL to burn off excess MS if CL is on cooldown and we are about to cap our MS.

But what would happen if we swapped the cost around?

Crash Lightning (ST): 100% damage = 3,33% damage/MS
CL talented (ST): 100 + 14 * 6 = 184% damage = 6,13 damage/MS
Lava Lash (ST, obviously): 505% damage per hit = 25,25 damage/MS, divided by two = 12,63% damage per MS spent

What does this do to our rotation? Well, it means that CL is not worth casting in a single target rotation. Single target would be focusing on Stormstrikes, Lava Lashes and Flame/Hail. At 2+ targets, we could weave in the Crash Lightning as well to do cleave damage. Untalented, CL would still be a damage loss in terms of Maelstrom Spent, but we would get the cleave damage on top of it, making it worth it - and if talented, the damage is on par with Lava Lash's damage per maelstrom.

How would that effect Doom Vortex? Well, we would be using Lava Lash a whole lot more in Single Target, meaning we would see more of those 25% proc chances go off. In AOE situations, we would do crash lightning and then either have a bunch of Stormbringer procs (and use those) or spend our MS on Lava Lashes, which means vortexes as well.

I'll be honest, I haven't thought more about the above than what I posted here - it needs some math from people who are smarter than me, but perhaps it's a step in the right direction.

[Spikedude]

Well guys, it looks like Professor Versatility got hit with the ban hammer. Funs over, we can all go home now.

So anyways, back on track a bit:

I posted this in The Professor's other post, but I think this might be a better place to put it, since it might spark a more constructive conversation: I might have an idea on how to fix both Lava Lash and Doom Vortex:



I'll be honest, I haven't thought more about the above than what I posted here - it needs some math from people who are smarter than me, but perhaps it's a step in the right direction.

I actually like this idea. Swapping the priority of LL and CL for single target while maintaining CL's viability in Cleave/AoE is just the fix LL needs. Simple and elegant solutions are always the best.

[Deleted]

Especially considering how much value we ate currently getting from CL, even on Single Target. I'd rather that this was LL.

[Potsu]

My favourite part about the entertainment Professor Expert gave us was how he disregarded all the actual real-life data in favour of his assumed fabricated statistics which are fabricated in such a way to support his argument. Most notably "Let's say 200 weapon attacks occur over 300 sec (aka 5 mins),"

I also like how he completely disregards WF attacks and all our other abilities which apply FB dmg from hailstorm. It was a great read 5/7.

The only thing I'm worried about if our last gold trait gets updated is that no one has been working towards it and it will end up costing hundreds of thousands of AP to get or require a reset of our stats (does this also increase with traits acquired?)

[Imnick]

Even if Doom Vortex is updated you aren't likely to need to respec your artifact.
You will still want the very valuable first two traits, and as you can usually get a new trait every 3-4 days, it's not going to take that much longer (just a matter of weeks) for people to have started finishing their tree and putting points into the "paragon" traits.

[Nitwit]

So anyways, back on track a bit:

I posted this in The Professor's other post, but I think this might be a better place to put it, since it might spark a more constructive conversation: I might have an idea on how to fix both Lava Lash and Doom Vortex:



I'll be honest, I haven't thought more about the above than what I posted here - it needs some math from people who are smarter than me, but perhaps it's a step in the right direction.

This kills the Crashing Storm talent. Better solution would be to make Fury of Air and Sundering not horrible.