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  1. #41
    Herald of the Titans Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyButt View Post
    Would it be worth it to replace my Sinew?
    Sim it.

    How accurate is Simulation Craft these days? According to SC I should be doing 275,000 DPS in my current armor with Bone Chilling. I then was curious about how I would sim with Ray of Frost. According to SC I should be doing 269,000 with Ray of Frost. (Assuming I played the spec perfectly) So obviously if I was to follow SC, I would pick Bone Chilling. However, in actual practice I am seeing a MASSIVE difference between the two talents. Bone Chilling over 5 minute test on dummy is giving me an ending DPS of about 215,000. Doing the same test with Ray of Frost, it's giving me an ending DPS of about 265,000 DPS. Maybe I just don't fully understand how Simulation Craft works.

    (Bursting in the 900,000 with hero/icy veins/Ray of Frost is fun. =D)
    BC/TV is hard to play in general, but I have a hunch something's inflating the value on the sim. I just haven't found it. That said, I haven't seen anything quite THAT extreme, it's very likely you're not playing it correctly or you just got procs at the wrong time. Remember that the sim runs multiple thousands of times and spits out an average, compared to your handful of dummy tests. You're going to see a difference.

    Agreeing with Ray though, dat opening burst is pretty fun to see. I've been running it for raid since the theoretical difference is pretty low.

    Guessing Blizz is agreeing with Frost being lowish though with the buffs in 7.1.
    Last edited by Kuni Zyrekai; 2016-10-12 at 05:51 AM.

  2. #42
    what about using ray with chorno shard trinket and shoulder/helm 2pc with haste proc, wouldn't those two items with their huge haste procs make ray worth it finally?

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Sim it.



    BC/TV is hard to play in general, but I have a hunch something's inflating the value on the sim. I just haven't found it. That said, I haven't seen anything quite THAT extreme, it's very likely you're not playing it correctly or you just got procs at the wrong time. Remember that the sim runs multiple thousands of times and spits out an average, compared to your handful of dummy tests. You're going to see a difference.

    Agreeing with Ray though, dat opening burst is pretty fun to see. I've been running it for raid since the theoretical difference is pretty low.

    Guessing Blizz is agreeing with Frost being lowish though with the buffs in 7.1.
    I saw the Brain Freeze buff that increases damage of your next Flurry by 30%. Is that the only buff they gave? Or is there more that I can't find?

  4. #44
    Herald of the Titans Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noimawizard View Post
    what about using ray with chorno shard trinket and shoulder/helm 2pc with haste proc, wouldn't those two items with their huge haste procs make ray worth it finally?
    You can't be sure they'll be up when you need them to be up.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrostyButt View Post
    I saw the Brain Freeze buff that increases damage of your next Flurry by 30%. Is that the only buff they gave? Or is there more that I can't find?
    Waterbolt increased by 20%, Water Jet by 100%.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    You can't be sure they'll be up when you need them to be up.



    Waterbolt increased by 20%, Water Jet by 100%.
    Oh cool. I'll have to download the PTR and try them out. But for shits and giggles. Napkin math, what kind of DPS boost overall do you think that will give Frost Mage?

  6. #46
    Herald of the Titans Kuni Zyrekai's Avatar
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    ~5% for me. At least it's added to the sustained bits, which is where Frost hurts the most.

  7. #47
    Hey thanks a lot for the guide. Frost has been my favourite spec since Vanilla and I'm still enjoying the playstyle. However I've been having a bit of difficulty with certain talent setups.

    When we take RoF, it feels like it almost counters TV. Are we not supposed to be pairing those two talents together? I assume you want to cast RoF during IV uptime but by doing so, you are foregoing casting any icelances, therefore wasting the TV talent. Similarly, in dungeons I assume grabbing Splitting Ice & Frost Bomb works well, as both talents allow for Ice Lance cleaving, but again this causes issues with TV from what I can tell. Without Frozen Touch, you are losing out on 2 or more guaranteed FoF charges which would extend your IV duration. It seems with TV, you are pretty much locked into taking BC and Frozen Touch, unless I'm wrong here. I just started trying out the rotation recently and these two mixups are causing me to second guess my priority system while practicing the rotation.

    Edit: Also, during raid encounters, would it be better to pre-cast blizzard instead of FB to stack up BC faster?

  8. #48
    Hey kuni. What exactly should we be going for Stat wise in raids? I know haste is best stat but it also falls off a cliff in any boss fight with adds in it. So would it be better to stack crit until shatter cap *34%* and then go for haste, or even versatility. Theres 2 fights only in EN that is 100% purely Single target and one of those fights gains adds in mythic.


    Also, does blizzard ever get phase out of our rotation on ST, when we rank up our frostbolt damage in ebonchill?
    Last edited by noimawizard; 2016-10-13 at 02:54 PM.

  9. #49
    Old God Swizzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    ~5% for me. At least it's added to the sustained bits, which is where Frost hurts the most.
    Don't forget the most recent buff to Lonely Winter. God I wish that would be enough to make Glacial Spike worth it.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuni Zyrekai View Post
    Waterbolt increased by 20%, Water Jet by 100%.
    I saw the brain freeze buff and water jet buff, but not waterbolt? Looked through the ptr builds, know where it stated this?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ponkster View Post
    Good as a very basic guide but extremely limited information. More of an overview.

    No stat weights

    No artifact power progression path

    No traits for relics

    Nothing to say which talents might be better with different stat weights.

    If there is more to come put it at the bottom but this guide is disappointing.
    This guide is great. Dont act like a child he cleary said at bottom go learn SimC and figure some of this shit out on your own. If you cant do this yourself dont come flaming a guide that he didnt have to even write at all for us. People like you are terrible, just expect things to be handed to you with no work.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by dk3790 View Post
    I saw the brain freeze buff and water jet buff, but not waterbolt? Looked through the ptr builds, know where it stated this?
    It is at the very bottom of the updates list:
    Class Pets
    Abilities (3)

    Waterbolt Deals [(80%100% of Spell power) * 0.75] Frost damage to the target.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by catalyst018 View Post
    This guide is great. Dont act like a child he cleary said at bottom go learn SimC and figure some of this shit out on your own. If you cant do this yourself dont come flaming a guide that he didnt have to even write at all for us. People like you are terrible, just expect things to be handed to you with no work.
    Been posting and a top frost mage player for years. I've been following Kuni's guides every expansion. The write-up was weak and his missed some key things out that are important knowledge to the mage community.

    I already knew the stat weights, the optimal progression paths and what were the best traits; so please don't assume I'm lazy.

    Altered-time has all this information.

    Good try on the white-knighting though, keep it up.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Ponkster View Post
    Been posting and a top frost mage player for years. I've been following Kuni's guides every expansion. The write-up was weak and his missed some key things out that are important knowledge to the mage community.

    I already knew the stat weights, the optimal progression paths and what were the best traits; so please don't assume I'm lazy.

    Altered-time has all this information.

    Good try on the white-knighting though, keep it up.
    LEL. Simple math will tell you this doesn't mean shit. You're playing a sub-optimal spec, one that only a small percentage of the raiding population is specced into. Of course any decent player will be parsing high.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by TiltEV View Post
    LEL. Simple math will tell you this doesn't mean shit. You're playing a sub-optimal spec, one that only a small percentage of the raiding population is specced into. Of course any decent player will be parsing high.
    I have had top parses with all three specs.

    Simple math doesn't really say anything either. Yes there are more players playing fire (especially casuals) this means that (especially in mythic and early heroic kills) the dedicated frost mages are the only ones killing stuff, you're competing with the best ones raiding. If you place 50/100 frosts mages that's still gonna be a shit percentile.

    Ultimately frost is TERRIBLE right now and I'm arcane which still isn't as good as fire but its competitive with other specs.

    I advise anyone to not pick up frost and keep it on the side till 7.1. It is behind fire ST and you can forget cleave.
    Last edited by Ponkster; 2016-10-14 at 03:01 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Ponkster View Post
    I have had top parses with all three specs.

    Simple math doesn't really say anything either. Yes there are more players playing fire (especially casuals) this means that (especially in mythic and early heroic kills) the dedicated frost mages are the only ones killing stuff, you're competing with the best ones raiding. If you place 50/100 frosts mages that's still gonna be a shit percentile.

    Ultimately frost is TERRIBLE right now and I'm arcane which still isn't as good as fire but its competitive with other specs.

    I advise anyone to not pick up frost and keep it on the side till 7.1. It is behind fire ST and you can forget cleave.
    LOL point still remains your crying about something this person didnt even have to write. The quality of it has no merit to that fact. your just a lazy kid who isn't intelligent enough to solve problems on his own. This fact alone tells me that even though im playing the least optimal spec Id still out DPS you on your arcane spec.

  17. #57
    Regarding this:

    "Flurry

    The Winter's Chill debuff applied by Flurry, the one that allows spells to consider target frozen for 1.6 seconds, can be gamed further than explained prior. Firstly, if you Frostbolt -> Flurry -> Ice Lance, the Frostbolt will gain the benefit of Shatter if you are further than 23 yards from the target due to travel speeds. "

    I can't reproduce this 100% - It is easy to check as it should give me a stack/an added stack of Chain Reaction - but i am not getting those. Testing on dummy, being 25 yards away from the target (range addon). And i am doing Frosbolt, spamming flurry keybind and then ice lance.

    What could be the cause?

    P.S. Great guide Kuni

  18. #58
    I got Lady Vashj's Grasp, and I'm only half excited. I feel locked into the talent choice of Bone Chilling+Thermal Void, because the legendary's passive fits long Icy Veins uptime just too well to consider other talents. I'm even afraid to take Ray of Frost for fear of wasting FoFs. I'd love to just play without Thermal Void, but then LVG goes from 10+ free FoFs...to two. Seems kind of lame, and given today's discussion that the dev team is open to reworking legendaries, I can't help but wonder if LVG will be changed to be less talent-constricting.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ponkster View Post
    I have had top parses with all three specs.

    Simple math doesn't really say anything either. Yes there are more players playing fire (especially casuals) this means that (especially in mythic and early heroic kills) the dedicated frost mages are the only ones killing stuff, you're competing with the best ones raiding. If you place 50/100 frosts mages that's still gonna be a shit percentile.

    Ultimately frost is TERRIBLE right now and I'm arcane which still isn't as good as fire but its competitive with other specs.

    I advise anyone to not pick up frost and keep it on the side till 7.1. It is behind fire ST and you can forget cleave.

    Are you making false claims again? Top parses being what? top 5/10/100/200? You have any proof?

    You know what I've concluded from all this? BS, to put it mildly... You're ripping kuni's guide by stating 'his missed some key things out that are important knowledge to the mage community'. What key things are you referring to? According to you; since you're clearly the superior mage here, why not write a frost guide with your own theory-crafting?

    The fact that you've been following kuni's guides for years suggests you're full of yourself, mate. If you were as good as you claim to be, you wouldn't be following somebody else's guide and instead would've had one written by the time legion went live.
    Last edited by TheGOAT; 2016-10-15 at 12:27 AM.

  20. #60
    Apparently the blizzard team thinks frost is doing really well right now? They say it's because everyone is fire that it doesn't get noticed. I just don't see it at all tbh even if I were to dump ap into the frost artifact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

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