Restos: Tell me about Haste

[Weissrolf]

But Rejuv spamming is boring! :P Persistence is the one artifact trait that I am waiting for the most (went for the other two golden ones first).

[RestoSpirit]

But Rejuv spamming is boring! :P Persistence is the one artifact trait that I am waiting for the most (went for the other two golden ones first).

Well yeah it's kinda boring, but I assumed this post is about what's the most optimal way to play for progression raiding

[Alltat]

But Rejuv spamming is boring! :P

You're a druid. Rejuv spam has (almost) always been the main thing you do. There's no way around it, and any build that tries is going to be inferior.

[Weissrolf]

I disagree, Rejuv spamming was not the main thing I did in the past. I prefer AoE heals like Wild Growth and Efflorescence whenever possible and they often beat Rejuv for total healing in my logs.

[Alltat]

I disagree, Rejuv spamming was not the main thing I did in the past. I prefer AoE heals like Wild Growth and Efflorescence whenever possible and they often beat Rejuv for total healing in my logs.

Those have never been spamable, though. The majority of your active time during a boss fight has always been spent casting Rejuvenation. The only exception is early vanilla when Rejuv effects from different druids didn't stack.

[Irisel]

People, please use your words better. There is a difference between a HoT ticking "faster" and "more frequently."

[Weissrolf]

That is a difference of 45X / 20X = 2.25 times more healing.
So you get +50% haste, but you do 125% more healing. (1.50 * 1.50 = 2.25 ... this is the double dip, you benefit from haste TWICE)

50% Haste = 16.250 points / 583.33 = 27.86% Mastery

Increased Mastery healing per HoT at 27.86% Mastery:

1 HoT = 1.28
2 HoT = 1.63
3 HoT = 2.09
4 HoT = 2,67

Compared to the 2.25 multiplier you listed for 50% Haste you need 4 HoTs on a target to get the same out of Mastery. There is a big cave-at, though. The Haste multiplier is mostly about healing *different* people or healing the same person at different times. If you need all that healing on a single person at around the same time-frame (aka stacking HoTs + cast-time heals) then Mastery easily wins.

Of course this isn't exactly new to us, because everyone keeps saying to stack Mastery for 5 mans (aka tank healing) and Haste for raids. As someone who doesn't like Rejuv blanketing (as a play-style) I am still not convinced, though. I would still prefer to boost my AoE heals (Efflorescence, Wild Growth, Tranquility), which calls out for Crit and Mastery rather than Haste.

There is another small detail to keep in mind: Stonebark's 20% bonus applies to both HoTs *and* Tranquility + Efflorescence. So a Crit/Mastery boosted Tranq/mushroom gets another 20% boost with Stonebark. In a raid where you struggle to keep single people (out of a whole group/AoE) alive this can make a difference.

[Shiftyfish]

I disagree, Rejuv spamming was not the main thing I did in the past. I prefer AoE heals like Wild Growth and Efflorescence whenever possible and they often beat Rejuv for total healing in my logs.

so we seem to have a misunderstanding of what's being asked and what's being answered here in this thread.

your question, why is haste the best.

responses in thread are presenting you with the mathematical breakdown of how and why haste is a stronger throughput stat than mastery in raids. this is an objective truth, it's just how the math works.

your response is the quote above "well I prefer x" "I don't like rejuv spamming" these are subjective opinions. ones that don't do anything to refute the actual numbers to performance calculations that we have to work with in game for our stats.

basically I'm saying what you are saying is a preference or opinion. what others are saying is the actual math on how strong the stats are. and I mean, that's fine you can have a different preference in play styles etc. but saying "oh well I disagree" with what boils down to math and numbers is a bit silly lol. disagreeing that 2+2=4 doesn't make 2+2 not equal 4.

[Weissrolf]

What I am saying is that everyone assumes Rejuv spamming to be the best (if not even only) viable play-style for good raid numbers. Is there hard evidence for this assumption, especially in practice compared to simulations? Are there ways to boost AoE heals to a point where we can get away from Rejuv blanketing?

Yes, Haste wins if you go full out on Rejuv, but what about other play-styles? Wouldn't they compete well in combination with other stats priorities?

All of this doesn't even consider raid compositions. Our raid isn't some kind of simlation's dream, we are a mixed up bunch who are happy if we get enough people together. Looks like we will be having 2x druid + 1x priest as healer roster. Hopefully we can get a fourth healer with a different class, but it's not likely. So it looks like this druid here will have to keep an eye on his tanks, too (especially the DH). What does Haste do for me in this setup and won't other stats maybe help better?

I found Leaf's WA again. Will watch it for a while to see what stats I am using in practice once we start raiding (only non+ mythics yet).

[Keiyra]

What I am saying is that everyone assumes Rejuv spamming to be the best (if not even only) viable play-style for good raid numbers. Is there hard evidence for this assumption, especially in practice compared to simulations? Are there ways to boost AoE heals to a point where we can get away from Rejuv blanketing?.

I don't think you are understand what people mean when the speak of rejuv spamming. It is in reference to free GCDs, after we've already cast WG, Efflo, Lifebloom mainteance, and RG from OoC procs - its in those open GCD's that rejuv is "spammed". Even for the "aoe" heals WG and Efflo, haste is still more output per stat point than crit or mastery in a raid setting. There is also the small side benefit that more haste, means shorter cast times on WG and RG which allows to you complete casts more often when having to move out of void zones.

Crit is by no means a bad stat, it's quite good, since it benefits Tranq, but its lower conversion ratio hurts it. It's still very valuable though.

[Alltat]

What I am saying is that everyone assumes Rejuv spamming to be the best (if not even only) viable play-style for good raid numbers. Is there hard evidence for this assumption, especially in practice compared to simulations? Are there ways to boost AoE heals to a point where we can get away from Rejuv blanketing?

People don't mean actually spamming Rejuvenation all day. But the spells we have that are more effective/efficient, like Wild Growth/Swiftmend/Lifebloom/Efflorescence, all have cooldowns or other limitations. So you need to fill the time between casting those with something. For that you have three options: Regrowth (too expensive), Healing Touch (weak and roots you), and Rejuvenation (the clear winner).

[Weissrolf]

Does Haste affect Efflorescence?

[Deleted]

unless you are tank healing , mastery is completely useles in raids, aim for 0 mastery , even versatility is better

for dungeon healing aim for max ilevel, every stat is good somehow, and mastery is very very good

[Alltat]

Does Haste affect Efflorescence?

Unless it's bugged, yes. It used to.

[Weissrolf]

You realize that even disregarding the "cast-time bonus" (reduced GCD), haste increases the healing done by any of our hots the most of all secondary stats? (Unless you already have a crapton of haste of course.)

Could anyone explain this statement?

Haste makes HoT tick faster and adds an partial extra tick at the end. I would expect that 20% Haste corresponds to 20% more healing on a single HoT (aka the faster ticks + partial tick sum up to 20% more healing).

20% Mastery or 20% Crit (on average) would lead to the same increase for a single HoT then. So how does Haste increase "healing done by any of our hots the most of all secondary stats"? And I only mean single HoT, not cast-time and GCD effects.

[Keiyra]

Could anyone explain this statement?

Haste makes HoT tick faster and adds an partial extra tick at the end. I would expect that 20% Haste corresponds to 20% more healing on a single HoT (aka the faster ticks + partial tick sum up to 20% more healing).

20% Mastery or 20% Crit (on average) would lead to the same increase for a single HoT then. So how does Haste increase "healing done by any of our hots the most of all secondary stats"? And I only mean single HoT, not cast-time and GCD effects.

He means haste increases healing the most for a given amount of stat points. Since it only takes 325 rating for 1% haste gain and the others cost more.

IE if you have 400 of a stat, a hot will see the following increase:
1.23% haste
1.14% crit
1.0 % vers
0.69% mastery

[Deleted]

Peupel love the easy way, that's why they want to remain like the old disco shield, spamming one button all over the raid.

A mastery builld for raid, needs a lot of micromanagement and priorities, based on abundance (5 stacks = 1 second HT), living seeds... even for a your aoe, you'll have to build solid to make the whole synergy, it's not easy, but it's not impossible.

Mana management is a lot easier.

I hate when someone is low life and stay low life, because spamming rejuv is the only effective crap I can do, even Swiftmend is weak with a haste build.


'' raid leader be like " : Can you heal pliz, the low life person ?
" build haste be like " : Sorry, spamming rejuv on one target, will nerf my hps you know. Hey I need a fourth innervate bro, recruit more druid pliz.

[Weissrolf]

He means haste increases healing the most for a given amount of stat points. Since it only takes 325 rating for 1% haste gain and the others cost more.

Well, then his is a good demonstration of how (deliberate?) imprecision of statemens just add confusion to the whole discussion, not to mention some broad assumptions that may be true or may be not. I don't see the hard evidence yet.

And those 20% mastery are equivalent to 33.3% crit (resp. ~36% haste). You won't break even with that on mastery prior to an average of 1.66 HoTs (resp. 1.8). That's not anywhere a typical amount of HoTs in a raid enviroment for anything but the tank.

I don't know about others raid enviroments, but we are a small raid, typically less than 15 members, closer to 10. We will run with 2 Druid healers + 1 Priest, unless we find another healer or I decide to switch to Paladin for the raid's sake.

A Spring Blossom empowered Efflorescence put a (6s) HoT on at least three people, preferably more. Even if they run out of the circle the HoT will keep ticking. A single Rejuv or Wild Growth on one of these people already increase the HoT count to 2, the tank will have at least a third one ticking. In fights like Ursol Cultivation seems like a viable option, which puts another HoT on everyone who really needs it, which does count for Mastery.

Every single one of these HoTs not only empowers the other HoTs, but also the already running Efflorescence, any Nature's Essence (instant heal) empowered Wild Growth, any Tranquility and likely to crit Regrowth. Over 600k (and up to over 700k) instant heal Regrowth in combination with SotF is well possible on a tank, even with lowish Mastery (10%, add 100k with 18%). And if you cast over an already running Regrowth you even get the Mastery bonus from the already ticking Regrowth HoT part. Yes, RG gives itself Mastery bonus once it's ticking.

I will give this a try as a substitute "Oh sh*t" solution for tanks. This is one reason why I prioritize Crit for the time being, at least until I know how we (as a raid) can handle single players dipping very low, especially tanks. I want that Regrowth to Crit for sure.

[Rivellana]

First: Ilv is much more important for resto druids, so you will almost never sacrifice a 10ilv upgrade for a piece of gear with haste on it.

Ok I am feeling really dumb now but I figured I'd better ask. I had to swap from holy priest to resto druid recently for the better of my guild's raid. When I went looking for information about stats all I really found was haste/crit for raids and mastery for mythic+ dungeons. So I've been attempting to stack haste, even taking some pieces of gear with lower ilevels than others I have because of haste.

Is the little bit of intellect really that much more important? This is honestly the first time I've seen someone say the ilevel is more important than the secondary stat.

Should I prioritize ilevel over secondary stat from now on?

[Keiyra]

Should I prioritize ilevel over secondary stat from now on?

If the item has intellect (rings/necks don't), and the ilvl difference is 10 or more, yes: ilvl>stats
If the item has intellect and the ilvl difference is 5...well thats a tougher call, use pawn or something similar with stat weights.

If the item has no intellect, the ilvl difference can be much larger, like 15-30 ilvls before it overtakes good stats. Check with pawn/stat weights. Especially say a haste/crit versus a mastery/vers item for raid healing - mastery is of course worth a lot more for mythic+

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I don't see the hard evidence yet.

Evidence of what specifically?
It's just math. For a single hot, stat point per stat point, haste yields the largest increase in output because it has the smallest rating conversion factor.

(Not talking bout which stat is better - that's far more complex)
In that specific scenario you mentioned:

And I only mean single HoT

he was correct. Haste is the largest bang for your buck