Subtlety rogue DPS help

[Quality]

Hello fellow rogues,

my first question is, is Subtlety rogue viable in PVE enviroment? I encountered almost zero Subtlety rogues since launch (maybe 2 or 3 that counts as zero ), but I have been enjoying it. The problem that I have that I think that my DPS should be much higher than actually is. Yesterday in Emerald Nightmare normal on certain bosses I ended up on (in my opinion) pretty low dps around 230k. I must add that I have forgotten agi flask, mastery food and didn't want to waist pre-pots on first pull, in which ended up killing the boss. But I still think that on ilvl of 855 I should be doing much more, so if are any sub rogues there, can you help me?

I normally open with SoD on 3 - 4 sec before pull (still have crit of first SS but starts on full energy) and pre-pot on 1 sec before pull. Then SS 3 times and get up Nightblade, pop up Shadow Blades and Dance and proceed with rotation - two SS Evi, two SS Evi - Nightblade when there are 7 or less second remaining. Not using Goremaw bite early on because I think that energy regen and three free CP can help to get back SD charges really fast. And on the start of the fight I have problem with overflowing with energy (trinket proc + heroism/tw/bl).

S my question is, is this right? Is this how should I open?

These are my talents - Master of Subtlety, Subterfuge, Vigor, Cheat Death, Prey on the Weak, Premeditation, Master of Shadows

Items are on wowhead profile - Qira, Burning Blade EU

(can't post links yet)


Looking forward to your responses

[DanielWard]

I'm no expert, but i'l give my opinion. I'm item level 856 pulling 270-280k dps on the dummy sustained ( way after blowing first 3 charges of dance ) and bursting just over 400k for the first 15 or so seconds.

Switch out vigor for deeper strategem.

Opener:

SoD
Shadow Blades
SS-->SS-->Nightblade-->Goremaw's Bite ( I use it early simply to get it back faster )-->Backstab if needed to 5-6 CP-->Evisc--> Dance at 70 SSx2-->Evisc etc etc.

This is working out nicely for me, after trying many difference openings. I'm at 33% crit, 9% haste, 75% Mastery and 5% vers. ( stacking M and C )

[Quality]

I just cant get over with using Goremaw's Bite before Dances, I know you want it to get up ASAP but It's just lovely to get 3 CP freely with energy regen on non-dancing phase, but I will look into it thanks. And what about talents? What are you personaly using?

I am curently at crit 27%, mastery 97%, haste 9%, versa 6%.

[DanielWard]

Yeah I hear you, but play around some more and see. I'm running the same talents as you, but I run deeper stratagem which you should be using! The extra damage to eviscerate and nightblade is too good to pass up.

That's some really nice mastery for sub, your eviscerates must hit hard!

Iv'e considered trying assass but I actually enjoy sub more and my gear is better suited for it. Sub is also going to scale better going forward I think.

[Quality]

Okey I will try using DS. Thanks man and rotation you use is pretty neat, just tried it in some dungeons and it is much better (of course mythic without 15%+ dmg buff form lfg). Thanks a lot

[SkyOctopus]

I've been using Vigor since I picked up my Rogue again. I didn't even realize DS buffed your finisher damage. I thought it only gave you a max of 6 combo points. I'll also have to try it, although losing that 10% energy regen will probably hurt. I wonder what the DPS difference is between the two talents.

[dpsnedd]

I've been using Vigor since I picked up my Rogue again. I didn't even realize DS buffed your finisher damage. I thought it only gave you a max of 6 combo points. I'll also have to try it, although losing that 10% energy regen will probably hurt. I wonder what the DPS difference is between the two talents.

They're really close, one lends itself better to mastery (Deeper Strategem) and the other better to Versatility (Vigor). Of the rogue talents that are more evenly matched it will tend to shift your playstyle/rotation/gearing. Find what works for you.

[Deleted]

I just cant get over with using Goremaw's Bite before Dances, I know you want it to get up ASAP but It's just lovely to get 3 CP freely with energy regen on non-dancing phase, but I will look into it thanks. And what about talents? What are you personaly using?

I am curently at crit 27%, mastery 97%, haste 9%, versa 6%.

you have 97% mastery?

Holy crap....

Could you link your armory? :P

I'm just getting started with Sub.

Got 19 points in the weapons(just got finality) and i have a few questions. Is there a spreadsheet for relics just like there is for outlaw? How much are ilvls on relics worth for Sub? Does it make a difference if you use Nightbane with Master of sub up(does it snapshot). Should i evisc at around 3-4 points outside of Shadow dance if i have shadow dance ready and 70 energy. Or should i Shadow dance -> shadow strike -> evisc.

Said in another way is it important enough to enter shadow dance with 0 CP's that you would rather use a subpar evisc first.

Also if Nightblade is about to run out, is it better to quickly reapply with 3-5 cp's or wait for 6?

[Deleted]

Relic comparison table for all specs, compliments of Skasch in the Rogue Discord channel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1314953135
@Nupomaniac
To answer your questions:

- Near ~100% mastery or above is fairly easy reachable once you start having mastery on almost all your gear (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Kynigao/simple my amoury if it interests anyone).

- Nightblade does not snapshot as far as I'm aware, neither with SoD or MoS. On a secondary note, after some discussion in the rogue discord, the general consensus is that Weaponmaster is actually better than MoS but this is not accurately portrayed in sims though.

- Having a few combo points when going into Shadow Dance is actually beneficial as it greatly helps with fitting in 4x SS and a Finisher due to the energy regen from using a Finisher. It's not really possible to play around the fact that you might overcap CP due to Shadow Technique or Weaponmaster procs and neither should you really play around that. Deeper Stratagem helps alleviate that a little bit by adding the extra CP cap but if you overcap due to Weaponmaster (Shadow Strike during Shadow Blades gives a total of 6 CP during a WM proc f.x) or Shadow Techniques then that's just something you gotta deal with.

- Never reapply nightblade with less than 5 CP, ideally 6 if you have the Finality buff. Finality scales off the amount of CP you've spent on the previous finisher (4% per CP I believe) so using a lower CP finisher is gonna bite you in the rear for your next finisher. Also I believe I heard something about that you should let a 6 CP Finality buffed Nightblade expire before reapplying it (or at least reapply with ~1 second left) as the damage from the Finality buffed Nightblade does not carry over if you reapply at the pandemic threshold (~5 second) so you're effectively wasting the last two ticks of a very powerful Nightblade.

[Jaronicity]

I've been using Vigor since I picked up my Rogue again. I didn't even realize DS buffed your finisher damage. I thought it only gave you a max of 6 combo points. I'll also have to try it, although losing that 10% energy regen will probably hurt. I wonder what the DPS difference is between the two talents.

Don't forget it also adds extra damage to every other Nightblade/Eviscerate via Finality Gold Trait. 6 CP NB gives your Finality:Nightblade 24% extra damage instead of the max 20% if you only used 5 CPs.

Open World I run:
Gloomblade
Subterfuge
Deeper Stratagem
Soothing Darkness
Premed
MfD

For raids/dungeons:
Weaponmaster
Subterfuge
Deeper Stratagem
Depending how I feel (learning I might go Cheat Death, but usually feint)
Premed
MoS for raids, but MfD for dungeons for quick add swapping to help with NB spreading

[Deleted]

SNIP

Thx a lot of the detailed answer. Helps me out a lot