Mangaza's Madness - Legendary Belt Questions

[Kaesebrezen]

belt I think AS may be better despite what people are saying.

As i've written above, SI is signficantly worse for late StM for various reasons. SI is target capped at one late into StM, while AS single-target is already 3-4 times more Insanity than what SI provides, scaling with targets.

If you want to get the most out of StM, you have to pick AS (this just doesn't mean it will be the highest Encounter DPS, just the highest StM DPS)

[Yvaelle]

MM+SI is however fantastic outside of S2M, and working from my assumption that we will likely lose S2M in 7.1, I would be very excited about getting Mangaza's Madness

[Mazui]

Do you think the gain outside of s2m is worth taking SI or is prolonging s2m just too strong that you have to take AS?

[Alexieel]

Do you think the gain outside of s2m is worth taking SI or is prolonging s2m just too strong that you have to take AS?

It really depends.
If your guild is having Problems within the last 30% (eg. Ursoc) and you dont fail the dps check, you can easily go AS so you do more dps in the hard part of the fight. If you fight for that enrage timer, the Overall damage from si would be better.

[Yvaelle]

Do you think the gain outside of s2m is worth taking SI or is prolonging s2m just too strong that you have to take AS?

Right now, we only have one talent choice - called S2M - everything else that we take is only taken because it enhances S2M. AS is better at enhancing S2M than SI is, even with MM - therefore AS is virtually our only talent for current raid progression bosses.

[Deleted]

Right now, we only have one talent choice - called S2M - everything else that we take is only taken because it enhances S2M. AS is better at enhancing S2M than SI is, even with MM - therefore AS is virtually our only talent for current raid progression bosses.

Don't know who to trust any more :P
I have the belt and switching to SI increased my DPS at least. But could also be that i got better at SP since i'm realatively new... Maybe i should try with AS during our next HC clear and compare the logs.

[Yozu]

MM+SI is however fantastic outside of S2M, and working from my assumption that we will likely lose S2M in 7.1, I would be very excited about getting Mangaza's Madness

Cats thinking we're going to loose S2M... Don't thing so buddy, it ties too much into the Spriest lure of this content and the current struggle to keep insanity. People really need to stop complaining about the talent.. it's getting quite old now, if you don't like the class re roll. I for one love it

[Isentropy]

MM+SI is however fantastic outside of S2M, and working from my assumption that we will likely lose S2M in 7.1, I would be very excited about getting Mangaza's Madness

Define 'fantastic'. SI really isn't a whole lot better than AS outside of StM when you have the belt, they are about equal with SI being ever so slightly ahead most of the time on single target. More than one target and there simply isn't any reason to take SI if you ask me - the argument I hear a lot is that SI will allow you to funnel damage into your priority target better (similarly to how shadow played in WoD with AS). However, this will just not cause any meaningful increase in priority target damage most of the time. Your Voidform uptimes will be noticeably lower with SI, so ultimately it comes down to raw damage from SI vs superior Insanity gen from AS. Of course, more Voidform uptime generally also means more priority target DPS, which you could argue offsets any gain SI could give you in that department (it goes without saying that this depends on the specific situation and timing as well).

SI is just a mechanically problematic talent once there's more than one target available. AS is completely passive, and you almost never waste any of its procs. That is so, so valuable during StM, but also outside of it. Very often you feel overwhelmed by SI procs when you have SW: P up on multiple targets, and even with the belt you lose a ton of procs, quite often.

To sum it up: SI isn't strong enough outside of StM to warrant taking it over AS if you ask me, even on single target. If you like playing with SI, by all means, the belt does make it a competitive choice most of the time, but if you're all about min maxing you don't have to take SI just because you got the belt.

[Rumstein]

Cats thinking we're going to loose S2M... Don't thing so buddy, it ties too much into the Spriest lure of this content and the current struggle to keep insanity. People really need to stop complaining about the talent.. it's getting quite old now, if you don't like the class re roll. I for one love it

Blizz have confirmed it's getting the chop. If S2M remains, it will be vastly different to what it is now (too strong + death penalty is bad), otherwise it will be replaced - possibly as soon as 7.1.

[Yvaelle]

Define 'fantastic'.

Most of your response stems from our different definitions of fantastic. I'm not looking at it from a purely numeric perspective, SI+MM is fun to play - it feels powerful because we get to spam instant Mind Blasts - we get to move often which alleviates pressure on all our other cast time spells. It is active, we can actually feel the talent proccing (unlike AS which is unnoticeable).

SI is just a mechanically problematic talent once there's more than one target available. AS is completely passive, and you almost never waste any of its procs. That is so, so valuable during StM, but also outside of it.

I would never take SI outside of either PvP (because instant procs are that important, because casting is not a thing), or with Mangaza's Madness. SI+MM is awesome, SI alone is - as you said - mechanically problematic to the point of being useless in PvE. Without MM, SI feels horrible. With MM, SI is a different animal entirely.

From a numbers perspective though, SI+MM is inferior to AS during S2M - simply because S2M is already too hectic to insert more Mind Blast procs, and AS at high haste levels provides some sorely needed consistency to Insanity generation. Once S2M is gone though, when I have MM, I am going SI and never looking back. Instant mind blasts for life

Very often you feel overwhelmed by SI procs when you have SW: P up on multiple targets, and even with the belt you lose a ton of procs, quite often.

This is really an S2M problem, because if you have replaced Mind Flay entirely with Mind Blast procs outside of S2M - I call that a win - and if you're getting so many procs that you are still losing procs - that's still a win. Really though I don't think that happens unless you're S2M - and I'm pretty confident S2M is gone in either 7.1 or 7.2.

To sum it up: SI isn't strong enough outside of StM to warrant taking it over AS if you ask me, even on single target. If you like playing with SI, by all means, the belt does make it a competitive choice most of the time, but if you're all about min maxing you don't have to take SI just because you got the belt.

I'm never all about min/maxing, I'm all about fun maxing. The difference is rarely more than like, 30k dps at worse for any talent choice (exempting S2M) in any scenario - so really if you're doing good damage already, play what you enjoy, play what gets you out of fire faster (instant casts), play what is easier to manage (Mind Blast procs are always worthwhile GCDs, versus clipping or delaying Mind Flay ticks for Void Bolt/Blast coming off cooldown.

AS is a fine talent, it is well designed, it does its job, I'm very happy with it. SI would be a fun talent if it didn't fuck up the Mind Blast GCD. Mangaza's Madness is a bug fix that we wear as a belt, it makes Shadowy Insight not feel like we're losing procs/cooldowns to uncontollable randomness.

[Deleted]

SI for quicker dungeons and Raids ST bosses. Auspicious Spirits should still pull ahead in higher mythic+ dungeons when you can multidot packs and AS is still default for multi-boss fights.

If you plan on playing SI a lot, you might not want Unleash trait relics as much anymore.

[Slybean]

I was fortunate enough to get Mangaza's Madness early on and was running SI. It just didn't feel as smooth as with AS especially if you get to higher levels of STM stacks.

Big thing though is that you cant really mess up at all when higher stacks of STM. Void Torrent usually gives me like a "OMG I can breath again with AS" moment while running SI you really hope you get that proc to help you keep the insanity up.

[Deleted]

So I just got the Belt and few quick questions - do I blow two charges right off in Voidform and then blow as soon as one pops up (same way as I do with SWD)?!
AS or SI? I primarily dungeon and raid night once a week.