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  1. #1

    Trouble with Relics ( Vendetta CD vs. Rupture damage )

    So, I have a hard time acknowledging/understanding why 3x relics that increase Rupture damage are actually superior than the ones that reduces Vendetta cooldown by 10s each

    Can anyone help out and do some clarifications on this?

  2. #2
    Mechagnome Vulryth's Avatar
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    rupture is your top damage source if your playing with the exsanguinate talent, which most people are
    weeee!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulryth View Post
    rupture is your top damage source if your playing with the exsanguinate talent, which most people are
    Yes, I get that, even with BotA ( Blood of the Assassinated ) and all that shit

    Still, I was looking for a lil' better approach, a math one, even a situational one, something like that

    - - - Updated - - -

    To me, that sounds like the same thing people say when they are asked why they use Hemo instead of EP

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skindown View Post
    Yes, I get that, even with BotA ( Blood of the Assassinated ) and all that shit

    Still, I was looking for a lil' better approach, a math one, even a situational one, something like that

    - - - Updated - - -

    To me, that sounds like the same thing people say when they are asked why they use Hemo instead of EP
    The math has been done its better the only time I see getting ven CD x3 being better is when we get into nighthold and have the trinket that reduces its CD to try and line it up with every EX cast
    Last edited by Firatha; 2016-10-08 at 07:24 AM.
    My rogue RIP 2004-2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    The math has been done its better
    Where? I am yet to see this

    I'm asking this because on a recent google drive document I saw, one that "lists" every trait's relative "ILVL power", the one that reduces Vendetta CD is said to be ZERO, while this one that increases the Rupture damage was 30 or 34, dunno exactly

    I mean, how does one even get there? Shouldn't one see the "overall damage gain" through the whole fight to see, in theory, which rewards the best performance?

  6. #6
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skindown View Post
    Where? I am yet to see this

    I'm asking this because on a recent google drive document I saw, one that "lists" every trait's relative "ILVL power", the one that reduces Vendetta CD is said to be ZERO, while this one that increases the Rupture damage was 30 or 34, dunno exactly

    I mean, how does one even get there? Shouldn't one see the "overall damage gain" through the whole fight to see, in theory, which rewards the best performance?
    Its right here in the overview https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...xQKvU/preview#

    Ranking in regard of traits damage performance.
    1 Rupture damage increase.
    2 Rupture crit increase.
    3 Poison damage increase.
    4 Envenom crit increase.
    5 Vendetta CD reduction.
    6 Fan of Knives damage increase.
    7 Sprint CD / Cloak CD reduction.
    My rogue RIP 2004-2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    Its right here in the overview https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...xQKvU/preview#

    Ranking in regard of traits damage performance.
    1 Rupture damage increase.
    2 Rupture crit increase.
    3 Poison damage increase.
    4 Envenom crit increase.
    5 Vendetta CD reduction.
    6 Fan of Knives damage increase.
    7 Sprint CD / Cloak CD reduction.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...lview?sle=true

    This one, why is Master Assassin put as ZERO?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I can get Fade into Shadows, I can get Shadow Walker

    Damn, even the "useless" Poison Knives has a value, why only Master Assassin doesn't?

  8. #8
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skindown View Post
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...lview?sle=true

    This one, why is Master Assassin put as ZERO?
    Not a clue but that has nothing to do with which traits are just better they either couldnt or did not want to do the ilvl VS trait math for the CDR trait
    My rogue RIP 2004-2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  9. #9
    I can get why it is better for overall AoE damage, since Rupture spreading is a big chunk of our damage

    But as far as single target goes, if Rupture is ~40% of your damage, you will get ~4% overall damage increase with the 3 relics

    On the other hand, the Vendetta with 1.5min CD has a ~22% uptime, with a 30% bonus damage increase, that's average ~6.7% overall damage increase

    If it has 1min CD, its uptime goes up to ~33%, so the overall damage bonus goes from ~6.7% to ~10%

    ~4% against ~3.3%

    Except that there is also From the Shadows trait, and the energy that is returned, that can increase the EP uptime even further by being kinda like a "checkpoint" ( can easily chunk ~15s of EP with the energy returned )

    The math doesn't check

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, note that I'm being really, really thoughtful of Rupture being 40% of your whole damage

  10. #10
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skindown View Post
    I can get why it is better for overall AoE damage, since Rupture spreading is a big chunk of our damage

    But as far as single target goes, if Rupture is ~40% of your damage, you will get ~4% overall damage increase with the 3 relics

    On the other hand, the Vendetta with 1.5min CD has a ~22% uptime, with a 30% bonus damage increase, that's average ~6.7% overall damage increase

    If it has 1min CD, its uptime goes up to ~33%, so the overall damage bonus goes from ~6.7% to ~10%

    ~4% against ~3.3%

    Except that there is also From the Shadows trait, and the energy that is returned, that can increase the EP uptime even further by being kinda like a "checkpoint" ( can easily chunk ~15s of EP with the energy returned )

    The math doesn't check

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, note that I'm being really, really thoughtful of Rupture being 40% of your whole damage
    I think I found out why the math was never done because there is not a relic from EN that has evenom CDR VS the rup dmg has 3 from EN one for each relic type so the whole point is moot but like I said the CDR trinket from nighthold and nighthold having 2 relics with CDR will change things.
    Last edited by Firatha; 2016-10-08 at 07:56 AM.
    My rogue RIP 2004-2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Firatha View Post
    I think I found out why the math was never done because there is not a relic from EN that has evenom CDR VS the rup dmg has 3 from EN so the whole point is moot but like I said the CDR trinket from nighthold and nighthold having relics with CDR will change things.
    I think there's only two, the blood one you still have to get from the damn Arcway, I've done it about ~30 times ( among normal Mythics and Mythics+ ), still have to see ONE drop, be it for me or any of the party members

    But you do understand why I get skeptical with that "relic ILVL table", don't you? It's not like the weapon ILVL will affect our damage more than the effect of the relic, we're not like sub that have a magnificent* weapon scaling damage

  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skindown View Post
    I think there's only two, the blood one you still have to get from the damn Arcway, I've done it about ~30 times ( among normal Mythics and Mythics+ ), still have to see ONE drop, be it for me or any of the party members

    But you do understand why I get skeptical with that "relic ILVL table", don't you? It's not like the weapon ILVL will affect our damage more than the effect of the relic, we're not like sub that have a magnificent* weapon scaling damage
    Looking at that table it looks like those numbers were ran useing the preraid setup which dose not even have a fully filled out artifact(its missing from the shadows) so its hard to think that table is even useable at this point
    My rogue RIP 2004-2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  13. #13
    That's why I'd like to bring it to the table, so people can talk about that shit, I spent quite a few time thinking about it, and everyone that I asked "why?" just answered me "because I saw on that spreadsheet thing" or "someone told me so", so it seems no one really knew shit why

    That's what I wanna find out

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Firatha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skindown View Post
    That's why I'd like to bring it to the table, so people can talk about that shit, I spent quite a few time thinking about it, and everyone that I asked "why?" just answered me "because I saw on that spreadsheet thing" or "someone told me so", so it seems no one really knew shit why

    That's what I wanna find out
    I 100% think it was just totally skipped over because theres no way to get 3 880+ Ven CDR relics and thats the only point it would pass the 3x880 Rup Crit or Dmg right now so people were like why bother simming it.

    EDIT I do think it would end up being better.
    Last edited by Firatha; 2016-10-08 at 08:12 AM.
    My rogue RIP 2004-2019
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    No they don’t learn and evidence suggests that. Behavior also doesn’t change and if there is any hope of learning behavior has to change.

    Not meaningless declarations easy to say after he regrets offering up evidence he’s a racist.

  15. #15
    I was curious about the vendetta relics earlier this week as those spreadsheets that claim the vendetta trait as 0 are clearly wrong, so I simmed myself in askmrrobot. AMR seems to give numbers and respond to things in ways that correlate to what I see in game, so I'm finding it very useful at the moment since I just swapped to assassination from outlaw a week ago.

    Currently I'm just an 849 ilvl poison build (under 100% mastery still), and in AMR I simmed keeping ilvls the same just swapping out all 3 traits at a time, to see what the relic ilvl equivalencies are for me right now and came up with this list:

    1. Master Assassin +27.2
    2. Gushing Wound +20.1
    3. Serrated Edge +14.6
    4. Balanced Blades +10.9
    5. Toxic Blades +8.2
    6. Master Alchemist +4.5
    and the others don't count towards DPS at all.

    So the vendetta relics are clearly stronger than the rupture ones even with my setup. The other traits are pretty similar in relative strengths to the pre-existing spreadsheet's list.

    The numbers change around depending on your build and gear and stuff, so it's always good to test your own setup out.

  16. #16
    Vendetta is the BEST relic for sin.

    ignore anyone that says it isn't

    1m vendetta gives you more uptime for 30% dmg + energy fill + from the shadows dmg.

    not even taking in account when you get the legendary boots that reduces even more vendetta cd.

    stop with this " rupture is our big dmg" its max a 30% of all your dmg.

    Envenom + Poison Bomb deals +- 25% of our dmg too.

    and vendetta buff ALL your dmg not only 1 skill

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulryth View Post
    rupture is your top damage source if your playing with the exsanguinate talent, which most people are
    Rupture is Sin main DPS source also if u play poison build.............not only for exanguinate

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dryzz View Post
    Rupture is Sin main DPS source also if u play poison build.............not only for exanguinate
    There's that too

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    Bump ( dunno if that's against the rules or not )

  19. #19
    Vendetta Cooldown relics are by far the best especially when you get the trait from the shadows.... they sim about 4k better then rupture damage for me now (for each relic).

  20. #20
    This constant bis relic trait swapping is getting old fast

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