[Ret] My damage is severely lacking.

[clearlylol]

Your issue isn't rotation, since you are doing it correctly. It's really just your stat weight. Mastery is lacking in most cases, where as haste/crit/vers are all pretty close together. That is, until you get around the cap we want for haste(20-22%). You need to try and bring your mastery down and getting more crit/vers instead.

You need better trinkets, as they are huge for CD usage burst, and you should be using Greater Judgement over The Fires of Justice as it not only spreads judgement to other targets, but makes judgement auto crit when health levels are above 50%.

You did semi fuck yourself by going the way you did with your AP, missing pretty big damage boosts on TV/judgement but it would be a big hit to respec now.

If you are using JV in your opener you are really nerfing your damage, as JV is never worth using... you are giving up four holy power total for very small damage boosts on holy power generators (due to quicker crusade stacks). The only time JV should be used honestly is if you know you need a heal or you'll die or if you can stun a target.

As others have said, never use anything but might... the other two blessings provide far less than what might achieves. Make sure you are using it on the three highest damage dealers (typically mages). Obviously you should be using any and all consumables possible.

[Deleted]

and you should be using Greater Judgement over The Fires of Justice as it not only spreads judgement to other targets, but makes judgement auto crit when health levels are above 50%.

Wat. You only use Greater Judgement for +3 Target cleave fights and even then Zeal is better. Fires of Justice is best for single-target boss fights. In EN i never use anything other than TFoJ.

[Coldfrostzero]

If you are using JV in your opener you are really nerfing your damage, as JV is never worth using... you are giving up four holy power total for very small damage boosts on holy power generators (due to quicker crusade stacks). The only time JV should be used honestly is if you know you need a heal or you'll die or if you can stun a target.

I disagree here, if you use JV to build your stacks up for the first 2 uses and then TV for the 3rd and 4th to cap off, they will not only hit harder but you'll get a couple of TV's at full strength instead of capping at your 5th TV.

Too low to link but my Paladin is Hearthman-Eredar US.

[clearlylol]

Wat. You only use Greater Judgement for +3 Target cleave fights and even then Zeal is better. Fires of Justice is best for single-target boss fights. In EN i never use anything other than TFoJ.

There are very few fights that zeal should ever be used on, TfoJ is the best single target... but for mythic+ Great Judgement is used because it is the best choice for trash/boss over the other two options... since OP was referring to his mythic group, it's safe to assume this is what he is trying to get help with. It's the same thing with DP/Crusade for lower level mythics where DP should be used over crusade. Until you get to high levels of mythic... (7+ I'd say) to where you will run crusade to help with boss fights since they will take the most time to complete.

To touch on what you should use in EN, I agree TFoJ will be used throughout most of the fights. However, zeal is commonly used on Xavius over other talents due to cleave.

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I disagree here, if you use JV to build your stacks up for the first 2 uses and then TV for the 3rd and 4th to cap off, they will not only hit harder but you'll get a couple of TV's at full strength instead of capping at your 5th TV.

Too low to link but my Paladin is Hearthman-Eredar US.

The rotation you laid out, if you try to get 15 stacks before getting another 5 HP, would take the same amount of time to get if you did not use JV and would have a second of dead time due to cooldown on CS. I'll lay it out..


1. BoW (pre fight AT) = 3 HP
2. Crusader Strike = 4 HP
3. Crusader Strike = 5 HP
4. Judgement/Crusade (Crusade isn't on GCD)
5. Justicar's Vengeance = 5 stack Crusade
6. Wake of Ashes = 5 AP
7. Justicar's Vengeance = 10 stack Crusade
8. Crusader Strike = 1 HP
9. BoW = 3 HP
10. Crusader Strike = 4 HP
11 Crusader Strike = 5 HP
12. Templar's Verdict = 13 stack Crusade
13. Judgement
14. Crusader Strike = 1 HP
15. BoW = 3 HP
16. Templar's Verdict = 15 stack Crusade

Takes ~13 seconds to get full stacks, mind you at this point you would also have another second before CS was back up.. and no other HP gain for ~3 seconds after.. in which BoW and CS would be coming back. So you would be using your first HP spender with full stacks ~17 seconds into Crusade.


Proper rotation...

1. BoW = 2 HP
2. Crusader Strike = 3 HP
3. Judgement/Crusade
4. Templar's Verdict = 3 stack Crusade
5. Wake of Ashes = 5 HP
6. Templar's Verdict = 6 stack Crusade
7. Crusader Strike = 3 HP
8. Templar's Verdict = 9 stack Crusade
9. BoW = 2 HP
10. Crusader Strike = 3 HP
11. Judgement
12. Templar's Verdict = 12 stack Crusade
13. Crusader Strike = 1 HP
14. Crusader Strike = 2 HP
15. BoW = 4 HP
16. Templar's Verdict = 15 stack Crusade

From there you would then use CS twice into your first full stack TV. giving you your first full stack spender at... 15 seconds into Crusade.

With the first rotation you've done 2 FV and 2 TV before full stacks. The second you've done 5 TV's before full stacks. I hope this helps explain why no one should use FV.

[Coldfrostzero]

There are very few fights that zeal should ever be used on, TfoJ is the best single target... but for mythic+ Great Judgement is used because it is the best choice for trash/boss over the other two options... since OP was referring to his mythic group, it's safe to assume this is what he is trying to get help with. It's the same thing with DP/Crusade for lower level mythics where DP should be used over crusade. Until you get to high levels of mythic... (7+ I'd say) to where you will run crusade to help with boss fights since they will take the most time to complete.

To touch on what you should use in EN, I agree TFoJ will be used throughout most of the fights. However, zeal is commonly used on Xavius over other talents due to cleave.

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The rotation you laid out, if you try to get 15 stacks before getting another 5 HP, would take the same amount of time to get if you did not use JV and would have a second of dead time due to cooldown on CS. I'll lay it out..


1. BoW (pre fight AT) = 3 HP
2. Crusader Strike = 4 HP
3. Crusader Strike = 5 HP
4. Judgement/Crusade (Crusade isn't on GCD)
5. Justicar's Vengeance = 5 stack Crusade
6. Wake of Ashes = 5 AP
7. Justicar's Vengeance = 10 stack Crusade
8. Crusader Strike = 1 HP
9. BoW = 3 HP
10. Crusader Strike = 4 HP
11 Crusader Strike = 5 HP
12. Templar's Verdict = 13 stack Crusade
13. Judgement
14. Crusader Strike = 1 HP
15. BoW = 3 HP
16. Templar's Verdict = 15 stack Crusade

Takes ~13 seconds to get full stacks, mind you at this point you would also have another second before CS was back up.. and no other HP gain for ~3 seconds after.. in which BoW and CS would be coming back. So you would be using your first HP spender with full stacks ~17 seconds into Crusade.


Proper rotation...

1. BoW = 2 HP
2. Crusader Strike = 3 HP
3. Judgement/Crusade
4. Templar's Verdict = 3 stack Crusade
5. Wake of Ashes = 5 HP
6. Templar's Verdict = 6 stack Crusade
7. Crusader Strike = 3 HP
8. Templar's Verdict = 9 stack Crusade
9. BoW = 2 HP
10. Crusader Strike = 3 HP
11. Judgement
12. Templar's Verdict = 12 stack Crusade
13. Crusader Strike = 1 HP
14. Crusader Strike = 2 HP
15. BoW = 4 HP
16. Templar's Verdict = 15 stack Crusade

From there you would then use CS twice into your first full stack TV. giving you your first full stack spender at... 15 seconds into Crusade.

With the first rotation you've done 2 FV and 2 TV before full stacks. The second you've done 5 TV's before full stacks. I hope this helps explain why no one should use FV.

You ignore FotJ and haste which greatly effect the time between attacks and during lust you can't press CS fast enough. (EDIT)Also, I note that my crusade stacks go 6, 11, 14, 15. So in 4 spenders I do what takes others 5 spenders.

I don't know where you parse but I'm parsing in the upper 70s to 80s pre-legendary ring and afterwards I'm in the high 80s to 90s using this rotation. Sadly, the fight I struggle on is Elerethe as I never get to grab a feather and on our last H Kill (last night) I died from being dumb.

Can't post log but I gained 15 stacks of Crusade at 13.76 sec into the fight which would give me 13.74 seconds of Crusade at full stacks (half of crusade left).

[akaTheDude]

New ret here, so don't use Judgement then BoW and CS?

So if I understand, Judgement is really only import for Templar's Verdict and not so much for BoW and Crusader Strike. This a true statement?

[clearlylol]

You ignore FotJ and haste which greatly effect the time between attacks and during lust you can't press CS fast enough. I don't know where you parse but I'm parsing in the upper 70s to 80s pre-legendary ring and afterwards I'm in the high 80s to 90s using this rotation. Sadly, the fight I struggle on is Elerethe as I never get to grab a feather and on our last H Kill (last night) I died from being dumb.

Can't post log but I gained 15 stacks of Crusade at 13.76 sec into the fight which would give me 13.74 seconds of Crusade at full stacks (half of crusade left).

Correct, I am ignoring FotJ and haste... since both of these would be present in both rotations. The timing listed is a base line that both rotations can be put on. Adding in haste would only speed said rotations up.. it's not going to make one slower and one faster. FotJ is a random proc, which I'm not going to go and sim for you.

For heroic fights, the last I checked, I am in the 90% or higher throughout every fight. This isn't really doesn't factor into the "which rotation is right" though... the layout shown does that for you on a base level scale. Again, scaling with your current haste.. and haste gained from Crusade will net both rotations the roughly the same speed. In which the second rotation is still going to be the correct one to use.

Getting to >= 15 stacks of crusade the fastest way possible without burning HP uselessly is the goal when running Crusade, not getting to <= 14 stacks faster... as the slight damage/haste buff will not outweigh the more time with 15 stacks.

You can go to logs for top ranked paladins on fights and break down their opener... you won't see FV being used as it is not efficient.

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New ret here, so don't use Judgement then BoW and CS?

So if I understand, Judgement is really only import for Templar's Verdict and not so much for BoW and Crusader Strike. This a true statement?

Correct, judgement should really only be used when you are going to use holy power spenders as the effect only applies to those. This is a big reason why we do not aim for a 30% haste rating anymore. It is not necessary to have the buff up 100% of the time since we cannot use HP spenders 100% of the time.

- - - Updated - - -

New ret here, so don't use Judgement then BoW and CS?

So if I understand, Judgement is really only import for Templar's Verdict and not so much for BoW and Crusader Strike. This a true statement?

Correct, judgement should really only be used when you are going to use holy power spenders as the effect only applies to those. This is a big reason why we do not aim for a 30% haste rating anymore. It is not necessary to have the buff up 100% of the time since we cannot use HP spenders 100% of the time.

EDIT: Correct... you use 4 spenders when the second takes 5... but you burn 16 HP to do so... when the second burns 15 HP. You are not gaining a spender once fully stacked.. you are actually always going to be one spender behind doing the rotation you are doing. I also... do not have the ring or cloak for my legendary.

[Coldfrostzero]

EDIT: Correct... you use 4 spenders when the second takes 5... but you burn 16 HP to do so... when the second burns 15 HP. You are not gaining a spender once fully stacked.. you are actually always going to be one spender behind doing the rotation you are doing. I also... do not have the ring or cloak for my legendary.

I have the non-good legendary ring, I should clarify. And it appears in the logs that the stacks of Crusade get applied BEFORE the next spender is applied, and with Arcane Torrent and FotJ the two HoPo I "lost" is made up for. So if the damage is calculated after the stacks are applied I wouldn't actually be losing any damage. My 5th spender is at full stacks when the other rotation the 5th spender puts you AT 4 stacks, I still don't see how this is a loss. I'll have to test it on H Xavius tonight to see if my damage changes, but the other ret paladin in our raid who has the legendary belt and a better Chaos Talisman (He's got 845 and I've got 825 w/ 150 haste socketed) pulls less dps on average than me using that rotation. Granted, his skill level depends greatly on how under the influence he is or how much he cares on that particular try. Even on the tries where he competes with me, I'm usually ahead by a decent amount at the end.

[clearlylol]

I have the non-good legendary ring, I should clarify. And it appears in the logs that the stacks of Crusade get applied BEFORE the next spender is applied, and with Arcane Torrent and FotJ the two HoPo I "lost" is made up for. So if the damage is calculated after the stacks are applied I wouldn't actually be losing any damage. My 5th spender is at full stacks when the other rotation the 5th spender puts you AT 4 stacks, I still don't see how this is a loss. I'll have to test it on H Xavius tonight to see if my damage changes, but the other ret paladin in our raid who has the legendary belt and a better Chaos Talisman (He's got 845 and I've got 825 w/ 150 haste socketed) pulls less dps on average than me using that rotation. Granted, his skill level depends greatly on how under the influence he is or how much he cares on that particular try. Even on the tries where he competes with me, I'm usually ahead by a decent amount at the end.

Again.. it doesn't matter if the buff is applied before or after the spender is used... that means your first full stacks spender is your fourth use of a spender. Where as, in the same time frame, the other rotation happens on the fifth.

You seem to be getting confused between fourth and fifth spenders because of the numbering of them... but for you to do your four spenders (since you use FV twice) you could instead use five spenders. You are not gaining anything from doing this... rather.. you are losing out on a spender within the same time frame. How can you think using FVx2 and TVx2 will net you more damage than TVx5 within the same time period while giving you the same outcome?

I'm not sure how else to break it down for you in a way that would allow you to understand. In the time frame you do your four spenders to get your stacks.. you could do five spenders AND get your stacks. Your way costs more HP to do so... and your last spender to get fully stacked only applies one stack... meaning you are using 3 HP to fulfill a 1 HP requirement. The other two are lost due to them not being able to be applied any where since you have used them in a non-optimal manner.

EDIT: I also have the shit ring and the shit belt, I use the ring currently... since it's less haste heavy and I'm already running too much as is.

[Winterstrife]

1. I'm not currently potting because all of my energy has been going to flasks.
2. Our healers seem to think wisdom helps, so no might is going out.
3. Do you really think that the artifact path has a 100k difference?

1. Pots really help out a lot, even with the nerf to Old War, there is an entire world of difference if you pre-pot + pot during hero phase.
2. Wisdom is not worth using over Might, none of the other 2 buffs is. If they need evidence, a quick Google search would probably direct them to enough threads on why Might > every other greater blessings.
3. I took the short route to Wake of Ashes & never respec after. Personally, never felt shanked enough to have respec.

[Coldfrostzero]

Again.. it doesn't matter if the buff is applied before or after the spender is used... that means your first full stacks spender is your fourth use of a spender. Where as, in the same time frame, the other rotation happens on the fifth.

You seem to be getting confused between fourth and fifth spenders because of the numbering of them... but for you to do your four spenders (since you use FV twice) you could instead use five spenders. You are not gaining anything from doing this... rather.. you are losing out on a spender within the same time frame. How can you think using FVx2 and TVx2 will net you more damage than TVx5 within the same time period while giving you the same outcome?

I'm not sure how else to break it down for you in a way that would allow you to understand. In the time frame you do your four spenders to get your stacks.. you could do five spenders AND get your stacks. Your way costs more HP to do so... and your last spender to get fully stacked only applies one stack... meaning you are using 3 HP to fulfill a 1 HP requirement. The other two are lost due to them not being able to be applied any where since you have used them in a non-optimal manner.

EDIT: I also have the shit ring and the shit belt, I use the ring currently... since it's less haste heavy and I'm already running too much as is.

If the 15th stack is applied before my 4th finisher, wouldn't that be an increase in damage? Meaning my 4th finisher is counted as 15 stacks and so is my 5th finisher and so on until Crusade is done. I'll have to try the "proper" rotation myself I guess, but from the sounds of it a fully powered TV at 4th finisher would be stronger than having a 4th finisher at 12 stacks and then a 5th finisher at 15 stacks. The way it sounds to me is I am squeezing in an extra TV at full stacks, again I could be wrong.

[clearlylol]

If the 15th stack is applied before my 4th finisher, wouldn't that be an increase in damage? Meaning my 4th finisher is counted as 15 stacks and so is my 5th finisher and so on until Crusade is done. I'll have to try the "proper" rotation myself I guess, but from the sounds of it a fully powered TV at 4th finisher would be stronger than having a 4th finisher at 12 stacks and then a 5th finisher at 15 stacks. The way it sounds to me is I am squeezing in an extra TV at full stacks, again I could be wrong.

No, you are trying to compare your 4th spender with the 5th forgetting that your 4th would happen at/around the same time as my 5th. so it would not do more damage. Your first three would do more damage, due to having more stacks at the time... but this wouldn't be enough damage difference to make up a full spender... which you would not gain throughout the fight.

[Deleted]

Guys please stop overcomplicating things.
If you really want to know the "proper" opener just look at the top Ret parses on WarcraftLogs. The vast majority don't use JV at all (it's a minor DPS loss, even for building the Crusade faster). The real discussion lies in where you want to pop your WoA, and this in most cases depends on your Crusade length with relics. You might argue that opening with WoA -> J -> Crusade -> build it, might be better since you can squeeze in the 2nd WoA just before the Crusade runs out (will be a massive hit, especially since the dot is also affected). But in general the 1st WoA is better inside the Crusade.

On Topic;
I know that some have already pointed this but these are the MAJOR things you need for high DPS:
- Proper built Artifact (a.k.a. the "long way" along with echo.)
- Proper trinkets (Faulty countermeasure is really strong, then get a a high lvl statstick as 2nd trinket. Hunger of Pack is really solid, or do Withered Jim world boss and pray for the - Best in Slot - trinket, also use your seal here to up your chance)
- Proper consumables (atleast flask and Old War pots. Preferable Azshari salad and augments as well. Vantus Rune for the boss your raid is struggling with)
- Knowledge of fights (Don't be afraid to use your CD's, always time your Crusade with BL, use SoV on CD offensively if u can, maximize your uptime on target, and spam your keyboard until it breaks)
- Always buff the top 3 DPS with might. Everything else is a mistake.
- Priority for abilities (I have seen a lot of rets choosing incorrect spell to press, resulting in huge DPS loss. Atleast get a weak aura for WoA and/or Hekili)


In mythic + forget about big AoE damage. Rather get Zeal for semi-cleave and focus on doing good single target damage. Never ever choose Greater Judgment, it will gimp your damage on bosses big time. Rets are actually really good in high level mythics.

I hope this helps!

[Meiffert]

They recently changed the haste cap from 30% to 22%.

I wasn't aware of the 22% cap.

Wait - Haste cap is at 22%? Even tho all guides and posts talk about 30%?

There is no haste cap, at 22 or 30 %.
While proper itemization can give you a few thousand extra dps, it's not really that crucial for rets (all stats are reasonably close together, so higher ilvl piece is going to be better 99 % of the time).
If you want more details about the stats, you can read some here.

But does BoM actually count towards the ret dps while might is on other players?

Why does it matter? The raid has more dps overall because of you (since you are casting the might), not the target.
WarcraftLogs counts the BoM damage to a paladin, some addons might count it towards the target.
Whether you should use BoM or another buff is up to you raid leaders to decide, but the sims/other people's logs obviously use BoM, so it is part of the reason your dps is lacking, there is nothing you can do about it if you need other blessings.

Looking at my Ursoc kill, BoM did about 35k dps, potions did about 26k dps. Just these two things count for majority of your "missing" 100k. Artifact traits and practice with your rotation and positioning (higher uptime) on bosses should do the rest.

[urw]

Hi Guys,

I will start that I had a break since beginning of Pandaria, came back for Legion and rerolled to Paladin ( previously was my 1st alt but played most holy or prot ).

Yesterday I did a run with my guild on some bosses on heroic EN. I was very happy as on Ursoc I did first on dps, but then I checked the warcraft logs on how other rets did I was not that happy anymore...

Can you guys check if I can improve somehow? I have been reading the forums for quite long now, not posted tho so far.
I use standard single target talents and rotation with CS and BoJ. BOM on DPS, can't afford on pots yet as herbs so expensive atm and changed my professions only few days ago.
I use the WoA during crusade. My opening was I get to Ursoc mounted, CS, BJ, CS CS, at 5 i pop Crusade, 1st cast of TV, then I use macro for Arcane Torrent and trinket use, 2nd TV, WoA, TV, CS, TV then pretty much I have 12 stacks and get to 3-5 stacs and dump my HP asap when target debuffed.

Also if possible please can some1 post my stat values? I feel pretty ok with ~22% haste, not lacking abilities and waiting for them to come off CD. I have in plan to change my neck and belt to crafted so I dump some mastery as it's weakest from what I know, then probably get sth with crit/vers but need to verify...

warcraftlogs com/reports/tNc7gVTzP43bDrFw#type=damage-done&source=18
eu battle net/wow/en/character/blades-edge/Urwena/simple

Obviously on raids I use TFoJ and VB yesterday just logged out after trying mythic 5man.
Thank you in advance.

[Fatali]

Wouldn't it be a better opener to:
CS -> BoW-> CS -> CS -> CRUSADE + JUDGEMENT -> TV -> CS (or TV if fires of justice procs) -> TV (if there was no proc) -> WoA -> rotation from here on...

That's atleast what i'm running with if the probability is high enough, that i'll be able to spend the first 35 seconds on the boss.
But i'm hardly an authority on perfect DPS, so correct me if i'm wrong.

Simcraft doesn't open that way, and I'm inclined to believe Simcraft has it right.
It goes WoA first, and then another WoA just before your Crusade stacks fall out. WoA with 15 stacks is better than the alternative, I would imagine.

Here's how Simcraft does the first 30 seconds: (note that I'm a Blood Elf, hence the Arcane Torrent)

Pre	potion	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 5.0/5: 100% holy_power	potion_of_the_old_war
0:00.000	auto_attack	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 0.0/5: 0% holy_power	potion_of_the_old_war
0:00.000	shield_of_vengeance	Jaghut	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 0.0/5: 0% holy_power	potion_of_the_old_war
0:00.000	wake_of_ashes	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 0.0/5: 0% holy_power	shield_of_vengeance, potion_of_the_old_war
0:01.120	crusade	Jaghut	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 5.0/5: 100% holy_power	bloodlust, shield_of_vengeance, potion_of_the_old_war
0:01.120	judgment	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 5.0/5: 100% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade, shield_of_vengeance, potion_of_the_old_war
0:01.980	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 5.0/5: 100% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade, shield_of_vengeance, potion_of_the_old_war
0:02.841	arcane_torrent	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 2.0/5: 40% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(4), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy, potion_of_the_old_war
0:02.841	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(4), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy, potion_of_the_old_war
0:03.625	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 4.0/5: 80% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(4), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy, potion_of_the_old_war
0:04.407	blade_of_justice	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 1.0/5: 20% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(7), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(2), potion_of_the_old_war
0:05.160	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(7), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(2), potion_of_the_old_war
0:05.914	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 4.0/5: 80% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(7), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(2), potion_of_the_old_war
0:06.669	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 1.0/5: 20% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(10), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(3), potion_of_the_old_war
0:07.425	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 2.0/5: 40% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(10), the_fires_of_justice, shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(3), potion_of_the_old_war
0:08.180	judgment	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 0.0/5: 0% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(13), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(4), potion_of_the_old_war
0:08.936	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 0.0/5: 0% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(13), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(4), potion_of_the_old_war
0:09.690	blade_of_justice	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 1.0/5: 20% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(13), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(5), potion_of_the_old_war
0:10.445	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(13), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(6), potion_of_the_old_war
0:11.201	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 4.0/5: 80% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(13), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(6), potion_of_the_old_war
0:11.957	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 1.0/5: 20% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(7), potion_of_the_old_war
0:12.712	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 2.0/5: 40% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(7), potion_of_the_old_war
0:13.467	judgment	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(8), potion_of_the_old_war
0:14.223	blade_of_justice	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(8), potion_of_the_old_war
0:14.977	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 5.0/5: 100% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), shield_of_vengeance, chaotic_energy(9), potion_of_the_old_war
0:15.732	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 2.0/5: 40% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(9), potion_of_the_old_war
0:16.487	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(10), potion_of_the_old_war
0:17.240	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 4.0/5: 80% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), the_fires_of_justice, chaotic_energy(10), potion_of_the_old_war
0:17.998	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 2.0/5: 40% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(11), potion_of_the_old_war
0:18.751	blade_of_justice	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), the_fires_of_justice, chaotic_energy(11), potion_of_the_old_war
0:19.507	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 5.0/5: 100% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), the_fires_of_justice, chaotic_energy(12), potion_of_the_old_war
0:20.262	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(13), potion_of_the_old_war
0:21.016	judgment	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 4.0/5: 80% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(13), potion_of_the_old_war
0:21.770	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 4.0/5: 80% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(14), mark_of_the_claw, potion_of_the_old_war
0:22.523	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 5.0/5: 100% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(14), mark_of_the_claw, potion_of_the_old_war
0:23.279	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 2.0/5: 40% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(15), mark_of_the_claw
0:24.033	blade_of_justice	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(15), mark_of_the_claw
0:24.787	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 5.0/5: 100% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(16), mark_of_the_claw
0:25.543	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 2.0/5: 40% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(16), mark_of_the_claw
0:26.299	judgment	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(17), mark_of_the_claw
0:27.053	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 3.0/5: 60% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(17), mark_of_the_claw
0:27.808	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 4.0/5: 80% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(18)
0:28.563	crusader_strike	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 1.0/5: 20% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(19)
0:29.318	blade_of_justice	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 2.0/5: 40% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(19)
0:30.071	templars_verdict	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 4.0/5: 80% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(20)
0:30.825	wake_of_ashes	Fluffy_Pillow	220000.0/220000: 100% mana | 1.0/5: 20% holy_power	bloodlust, crusade(15), chaotic_energy(20)

[Meiffert]

Can you guys check if I can improve somehow?

You forgot to use your Faulty Countermeasure trinket with your 2nd Crusade. You also only used Wake of Ashes 7 times. With the fight length, you should have used it 10 times.
Try to improve your UI, so that you have a better idea of your cooldowns and use them as often as possible, they are a big source of your damage.

Also if possible please can some1 post my stat values? I feel pretty ok with ~22% haste, not lacking abilities and waiting for them to come off CD.

For most typical gear sets, it's haste >= vers = crit > mastery, but don't worry too much about stats at this point, they are all close enough to not be a major concern.
Also, potions make for a decent dps increase, that doesn't mean that you have to use them, but don't be surprised to be outdpsed by other paladins on WarcraftLogs.

Finally, haste doesn't really give you more abilities as you mention, because while your spells have shorter cooldown with haste, the global cooldown is also shortened by the same ratio. There is an interaction with The Fires of Justice, because it lowers the Crusader Strike's recharge timer by a fixed amount rather than a percentage. This actually makes haste "fill" your rotation a little bit, but the effect is not huge by any means and only works with this talent selected.

[Fatali]

Hi Guys,

<snip>

Can you guys check if I can improve somehow? <snip>

Meiffert mostly nailed it, although I have to point out that you didn't always hit your TV while Judgment's (de)buff was up.

For reference, your Judgment uptimes can be seen here:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...=18&source=130

Your TV casts can be seen here:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...256&target=130

The first instance of missed Judgment window hits the eye at 0:38 when you hit TV, but your Judgment buff had already dropped at 0:36, and the next Judgment didn't happen up until 0:42. There might be more, but I'll leave that for you to check. It's easy enough to see using the links above.

Someone smarter than me might know how to merge the two graphs into one to make it even easier, but I don't know how to do that.

[urw]

Hi Guys,

Thank you very much for replies and giving ideas.

Simcraft doesn't open that way, and I'm inclined to believe Simcraft has it right.
It goes WoA first, and then another WoA just before your Crusade stacks fall out. WoA with 15 stacks is better than the alternative, I would imagine.

Here's how Simcraft does the first 30 seconds: (note that I'm a Blood Elf, hence the Arcane Torrent)

I know this would be better to cast a 2nd WoA when have 15 stacks of crusade, but my Crusade is only 30s so not possible for me to cast 2x times WoA during crusade, so I'm spending it to generate HP faster and get the 15 stacks quicker. Will need to get a 2nd relic with 2,5s from mythics, but then isn't the ilvl on Artifact more important than the minor traits? I have 840 from Shade of Xavius that gives my +2,5s crusade with crappy 840 ilvl, then the 2x from Nytheria...

You forgot to use your Faulty Countermeasure trinket with your 2nd Crusade. You also only used Wake of Ashes 7 times. With the fight length, you should have used it 10 times.
Try to improve your UI, so that you have a better idea of your cooldowns and use them as often as possible, they are a big source of your damage.

Yes it seems that I would forgot to use it on 2nd CDs and I was wondering why Brittle did so little dmg this attempt. I have a rather clear UI and can see clearly my CDs with planning ahead, so as stated before WoA isn't a major dps increase for me atm ( due to only 30s Crusade ) so I prefer to line it for HP for Crusade stacks, that's why I loose 30secs every 2 mins on it.

Also I made a type with statement that my haste gives me more abilities, what I ment was that my rotation is smooth, I don't have to wait for CS or BoJ to come off CD while I stand still and autoatack.

Meiffert, Fatali, can you please post me my stat weight nevertheless so I know what gear buy on AH with secondary stats and then update them to 850ilvl...

[Meiffert]

I prefer to line it for HP for Crusade stacks, that's why I loose 30secs every 2 mins on it.

Lining up cooldowns together can make sense, but in this case you wait for 30 seconds on an ability that has 30 seconds cooldown. You could have just used it right away and it would be ready exactly when you needed it.

Also I made a type with statement that my haste gives me more abilities, what I ment was that my rotation is smooth, I don't have to wait for CS or BoJ to come off CD while I stand still and autoatack.

I undersood what you meant, but this is a common misconception. Let me make a simplified example to illustrate what I mean:
Let's say you have 0 haste and in 1 minute (60 seconds = 40 global cooldowns), you use 20 Crusader Strikes and 10 Blades, leaving you with 10 empty globals. You spend 10 global cooldowns, which is 25 % or 15 seconds, waiting.
Now you change a lot of gear, food, enchants etc. and you find yourself at 50 % haste.
In 1 minute, you use 50 % more abilities (because cooldowns are shorter), so you did 30 Crusader Strikes and 15 Blades. But since the global cooldown is also lowered, you actually had 60 of them available, leaving you with 15 empty. You still spend 15/60 = 25 % or 15 seconds waiting.
More haste makes you spam all the buttons faster and the waiting periods shorter, but they are also more frequent, so the total time waiting stays about the same.


@sTatweights, I don't have a simulationcraft on my work computer, sorry.
But if you are buying a crafted item, then haste as the only secondary stat is a safe bet. (I had also bought haste/vers or haste/crit when pure haste wasn't available or when I could get a lot better deal.)