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  1. #41
    Lutcikaur provided a detailed explanation of how he determined the weights used in my guide:


    How the weights were generated:

    By taking in four known values, and making specific assumptions, we can constrain the problem greatly and make simplifications in how we calculate the relative efficiency of each stat.

    Known Values: [how i will reference these values below...]
    % of healing done as atonement, before mastery [refered to a %a below]
    # of targets [targets]
    # duration of atonement [duration]
    bool , swich between plea+pwr or only pwr [style, slow or burst]

    Assumptions:
    We are maximizing for healing (not damage or damage+healing)

    When we take in %a as a known value, we can for the most part take rotation out of the equation. There is a nuance that crit will be so very slightly overrepresented in this model due to crit not scaling smite shield.
    Based on the number of targets, similarly with duration, we will value or devalue haste.
    For the most part, weights are generated with burst healing, which devalues haste.

    Code:
    Pieces of the effort function:
    Your haste
    Your crit
    Your vers
    Your mastery
    %a
    pltab {
        cast time of plea
        cast time of pwr
        haste
        targets
        style
    } (A function to determine the % time lost to atonement building. pltab tells you how long you're going to spend building atones, therefore not healing.)
     
    With these pieces known, we can do simple math:
     
    a = haste x crit x vers x mastery x %a
    b = haste x crit x vers x 1-%a
    e = pltab x (a+b)
    Thats the effort function. Thats it. The problem goes from incredibly difficult, to incredibly simple. This is allowed to be so simple compared to other healers/dps because we have no complex interactions. There are no "on crit, do a thing" effects for disc priests.

    Once we have the above conditions met and understood, we can assign a pool of secondary stats to allocate, and run our effort function over every permutation of those values. The result is a large system of equations which you can then solve to determine your weights. Everyone who said healers are difficult to sim is right. Thats why I used the method above. Letting WCL tell me the difficult things, like how you healed, let me make massive cuts in difficulty to the equation to make this simple. Were we to take out any of the variables or assumptions we make, the problem would have to resort back to sims and other methods to determine, which would involve static health and damage values, rotations, and other things.

  2. #42
    Does the Weak Aura for AOE Damage in Raid encounters have any dependencies. I have DBM but I cannot for the life of me get them to work ...

    Edit: NM. DBM just doesn't show some of the stuff. Switched to Big Wigs.
    Last edited by DevilsAdvocate; 2016-10-20 at 05:59 PM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
    Does the Weak Aura for AOE Damage in Raid encounters have any dependencies. I have DBM but I cannot for the life of me get them to work ...
    I need to do some more testing on timing but there are no dependencies. Should work as long as you have DBM or BigWigs. I will check around with some others and see if they are having the same issue. I plan on releasing a new version soon with updating timing and any other changes that are needed.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by MendUS View Post
    I need to do some more testing on timing but there are no dependencies. Should work as long as you have DBM or BigWigs. I will check around with some others and see if they are having the same issue. I plan on releasing a new version soon with updating timing and any other changes that are needed.
    I'm glad you're doing some updates on timing. I noted you were having the same issues I was on mythic Nythendra. It may just be me playing wrong but the timer seemed fairly off for the rot after she gets out of sleeping phase. Again, it could just be me but it felt like I only had about 5 seconds to apply atonement opposed to the full 10.

    Thanks again for the guide!

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Pearl1717 View Post
    At 2s it is a "training wheels" talent.

    PI leads to an extra 2-2.5 seconds because with the increased haste you can stack up to lets say 12-15 atonements faster, giving you an extra about 2 seconds of dps time on your first few applications of atonement. It gives you more time to heal those initial targets. And yes, this is an instance of applying it to the whole raid rather than a few targets because that is the purpose of PI.

    With contrition we'll see more frequent and consistent 12 person bursts, while maintaining higher numbers of atonements in our conserve phase due to the extra 3s (and also because of SD, which will likely be the go to in 7.1). Contrition+SD actually takes us further from being "burst" healers and more towards consistent throughput healers.
    How does contrition compare to PI with the 4pc once we get to Nighthold? Surely the 4pc makes PI more valuable, since you can get out more PWS in the rapture window? With 25-30% haste from gear, PI pushes you up to 50-55% haste, giving us a 1sec GCD when we use it. During rapture (lets assume 3/3 Doomsayer) this gives you 11 PWS, where as without it you'd only get 9? With the 4pc, those atonements would have a +6 sec duration, so PI lets you get 2 more atonements with a +6 sec duration. If you have 6/6 doomsayer with relics, you're looking at getting 14 PWS out with PI vs 11 without PI.
    PI still provides an extra 2-2.5 seconds on non rapture atonement blanketing, and give us 2-3 more PWS with +6 second atonements during rapture. So would that outweigh the contrition? I actually don't know

    And with shield discipline, the mana cost reduction of PI is even more valuable right? PWS costs 2%, during PI this is reduced to 1.6%, with Shield Discipline we regain 1% when it's consumed, so effectively this combination lets us get out 11-14 PWS at only 0.6% mana each?
    Disc Priests: Just 2 mana trinkets away from becoming Withered

  6. #46
    MendUS , "Mend's Ramp-up WeakAuras " , don't work , i need to do something extra , like to setup something or what , can you explain please ?

    Ty a lot ...

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by UnuMic View Post
    MendUS , "Mend's Ramp-up WeakAuras " , don't work , i need to do something extra , like to setup something or what , can you explain please ?
    Ty a lot ...
    What's not working? Do you have DBM or BigWigs installed? I use DBM, and I get a soundwarning, but nothing more. Not sure if that's intended or not.

  8. #48
    I have DBM , but no soundwarning or visual ... it's bugged on me something , or need setup something ? i just want to say another weakaura's from MendUS , work perfectly and help alot , only this one dont ...

    I just asking because maybe it's my fault and do something wrong !

    Ty

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Bareturtle View Post
    So you're selecting PI but not utilizing the portion of the spell that is a HPS gain?
    You are, you have a dot, and a pet that utilize it.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Noradin View Post
    You are, you have a dot, and a pet that utilize it.
    Except we likely won't be taking MB in 7.1, which was the subject of my post, and one of the main reasons PI won't be as effective.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by MendUS View Post
    Lutcikaur provided a detailed explanation of how he determined the weights used in my guide:
    It's impossible to say what he did without looking at the pltab function.

    However, his description doesn't inspire confidence. He appears to have simplified any accuracy out of his calculations.

    It looks like he forgot about the effect of static cooldowns on haste, so he dramatically overstated its effect. He also doesn't mention mana efficiency. His final math is simply strange. He's calculating a modifier factor without regard to the fact that they're modifying entirely different values (and, for some reason, he's multiplying normal healing by the inverse of Mastery).

    If you want to provide the actual pltab function, we can take a look at that and see what he's doing. But his explanation leads me to believe that you shouldn't be using those stat weights.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by VigilantRose View Post
    It's impossible to say what he did without looking at the pltab function.

    However, his description doesn't inspire confidence. He appears to have simplified any accuracy out of his calculations.

    It looks like he forgot about the effect of static cooldowns on haste, so he dramatically overstated its effect. He also doesn't mention mana efficiency. His final math is simply strange. He's calculating a modifier factor without regard to the fact that they're modifying entirely different values (and, for some reason, he's multiplying normal healing by the inverse of Mastery).

    If you want to provide the actual pltab function, we can take a look at that and see what he's doing. But his explanation leads me to believe that you shouldn't be using those stat weights.
    I never put 100% trust into stat weights for any healing class; they are just not accurate enough to do so, even Lutcikaurs weights. I simply have them listed as a guideline for gearing; they also happen to align with the top ranking Disc priests in the world and how they are choosing to gear as well. If there were better weights available, I'd use them in my guide, but for now, these are the best we have that align with in-game results.

    In either case, if you're weary of using these weights, don't use them.

  13. #53
    So i know that Darkmoon Deck: Promise is supposed to be BiS and as such i bought it form the Auction house.
    However, is there any way to track how much mana is actually saved? Preferable ingame but logs are allowed as well.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Aelrine View Post
    So i know that Darkmoon Deck: Promise is supposed to be BiS and as such i bought it form the Auction house.
    However, is there any way to track how much mana is actually saved? Preferable ingame but logs are allowed as well.
    Each card shows up as a buff (in WarcraftLogs), and you can see how many times that buff was active per encounter and calculate the mana saved that way.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by MendUS View Post
    Each card shows up as a buff (in WarcraftLogs), and you can see how many times that buff was active per encounter and calculate the mana saved that way.
    Also note that the buff only shows up in combat.
    Guide for setting up VuhDo to track shields/absorbs

    Quote Originally Posted by Haekke View Post
    LFR is not really easy. I would say it's a lot harder thant Mythic Dungeons
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  16. #56
    Mechagnome Pearl1717's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelrine View Post
    So i know that Darkmoon Deck: Promise is supposed to be BiS and as such i bought it form the Auction house.
    However, is there any way to track how much mana is actually saved? Preferable ingame but logs are allowed as well.
    You could go into WCL and highly each buff you get, count how many casts you had during that buff, multiply by that specific buffs mana savings, and do this for a whole fight.

    Or you could just multiply your casts over a fight by 1086 and you'll get to like +/- 10k mana savings.
    Arthas Logs] | Azgalor Logs | Twitch | Pearl91#1607
    "I am a chemical engineer. To save time, lets just assume that I am never wrong."

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Bareturtle View Post
    Except we likely won't be taking MB in 7.1, which was the subject of my post, and one of the main reasons PI won't be as effective.
    That still leaves you with a pet, just not as often.

    (And the dot, of course)

  18. #58
    Updated for Patch 7.1

  19. #59
    I thought the standar was to spread attonement through pwr only but now you use a combination of plea and pwr? does this mean you never use pwr on a dungeon? Also the cooldown phase you mention is how you heal during nonincoming aoe periods? is there a scientific reason why 5 attonements is the best number to stop spreading attonement? so the argument between discs is about how to heal during these *cooldown* phases? i mean some use shadowmend while others use the method you mentioned into your post?
    Last edited by Aizen244; 2016-10-25 at 11:31 AM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Aizen244 View Post
    I thought the standar was to spread attonement through pwr only but now you use a combination of plea and pwr? does this mean you never use pwr on a dungeon? Also the cooldown phase you mention is how you heal during nonincoming aoe periods? is there a scientific reason why 5 attonements is the best number to stop spreading attonement? so the argument between discs is about how to heal during these *cooldown* phases? i mean some use shadowmend while others use the method you mentioned into your post?
    I developed the guide after observing the top ranking Disc Priests during progression clearing Mythic EN and turned it into a guide for everyone to follow. The method shown in this guide has been the standard. I also have had it posted for weeks on H2P and the Official Priest Forums (both stickied), so this is not new.

    The guide answers all of your questions, I'd recommend you read it. You should Plea to 5 since your first 5 Plea's, and PW:S to 6 are more mana efficient than casting PWR 3 times (you can do the math). Also, hovering around 5-6 Atonements means your ramp up time required is cut down by two PWR casts. Maintaining somewhere between 3-6 Atonements during "downtime" or the "cool-down phase" allows for you to contribute healing for relatively low mana cost. When major AoE is about to come out, we ramp up Atonement to 15+. Also, in the guide, it says "Don't be afraid to cast PW:R to apply Atonements quickly in a dungeon".

    I could repeat everything I said in the guide, but you should probably just read it again.

    In regards to Shadow Mending, I'll quote myself:

    The Shadow Mending playstyle has a place in raiding, but it's limited. I think it's best to look at the two playstyles as optimal in certain circumstances, not that one can supplant the other 100% of the time. Shadow Mending on Ursoc, for example, is clearly not optimal when compared to burst healing. However, on a fight like H Il'gynoth, there is nothing to burst heal. Another example would be Mythic Elerenthe Renferal, where I used the Shadow Mend playstyle to relative success because of the run across the platform, as well as my raid comp being able to handle the burst afterward.

    I think it's smart for people to understand their entire toolkit, the fight mechanics, and their raids healing comp and adjust accordingly. If you're arguing one is better than the other, it really depends which fight you're talking about. However, 90% of the time, burst healing is the best method.
    Last edited by MendUS; 2016-10-25 at 12:59 PM.

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