[7.2] Mend's TLDR Disc Guide

[MendUS]

Write a dungeon guide too then gogo!

I want to but need to find time. Maybe after this week I'll throw something together in more detail and append it to this guide. That way we have a one-size-fits-all guide. I'd like a write up to cover affixes and mainly ones that effect disc play most, dungeon specific tips (3-5 major tips per dungeon), trinket choice, and talent choice per dungeon.

The hardest part is each dungeon is so diverse that it's hard to write a guide to generally cover all of them. I'm going to put focus on that later this week early next week I think. I am also going to remove some of the FAQ questions and put the "How to Analyze Logs" section on a Google Doc and just link it from the guide. That should shorten it up substantially and make room for dungeon info.

[anon5123]

Actually, they aren't. They are balanced for disc like this.
I just explained why.

They feel underwhelming, but if they were stronger then they would automatically outperform all other trinkets for us.

They don't just "feel" underwhelming, they ARE underwhelming. I also just explained why.

When an 835 stat stick trinket is outperforming an 855 damage trinket, that is not "balanced".

[MendUS]

They don't just "feel" underwhelming, they ARE underwhelming. I also just explained why.

When an 835 stat stick trinket is outperforming an 855 damage trinket, that is not "balanced".

The easy solution is just removing them from our loot table if we aren't intended to use them, which clearly seems to be the case.

[anon5123]

Yeah, that's what I've been saying. At the current time, DPS trinkets are highly useless for Disc, so either remove them from loot tables or buff them to a decent level.

[Vampiregenesis]

I tried to raid as disc today and it was fun , i really like the mass pwr/lw combo , i managed to do 1-2 on ursoc , i think disc is nice for dungeons too , im doing like 120k dps on a boss and i dont have all dmg traits yet and relics gems and enchants.... healing feels good too , anyway i got some questions:

1. Im really clueless what to do out of this ramp up phase , you say in your guide to use up to 5 attonements , i guess that if the damage is insignificant you use none? under what circumstances do you consider to use attonement on a target? i mean how much health% etc? do you ever use it at a top health target?


2. Can i simply use shadowmend to spot heal instead of this 5 attonement thing? a lower guild will not really buy into this theory , yes a top guild will understand your role and theory but a not so top guild will not even consider to think how you are supposed to play , they will expect from you to keep people alive and if you dont you will get blamed for it and be replaced by a paladin or a shaman , i mean shadowmending is more simple and usually gets the job done , is it so much worse than the 5 attonement style?


3. How do you choose the targets you radiance? i guess it makes sense to use it on people who require some healing but what if everyone is top health? do you randomly radiance different people? do you notice where they stand?


4. How do you swap targets during an encounter with adds like il nygoth or cenarius? do you tab? do you assist someone? do you have macros to share about this specific thing?


5. What addon do you use to detect those major incoming aoe phases 10 seconds earlier? (i think you answered that but i didnt understand)

[tuxie]

On the topic of Atonement heals vs direct heals... Was blazing through logs today and found this
(Warcraftlogs) reports/ChxcyrRYAadqm1v4#fight=17&type=healing
Can't post links yet
Chinese disc 330k hps on Elerethe Mythic with pure Shadow Conveant spam. Would like to see some comments about this gameplay (now that we have a log to dig in) vs the standard one

[PosPosPos]

On the topic of Atonement heals vs direct heals... Was blazing through logs today and found this
(Warcraftlogs) reports/ChxcyrRYAadqm1v4#fight=17&type=healing
Can't post links yet
Chinese disc 330k hps on Elerethe Mythic with pure Shadow Conveant spam. Would like to see some comments about this gameplay (now that we have a log to dig in) vs the standard one

Oh, I don't know, how about you start by deducting the healing absorb that's 50% of the healing done value?

It's like people don't even read their own spell and talent tooltips before running away with their new next-level "playstyles".

[MendUS]

On the topic of Atonement heals vs direct heals... Was blazing through logs today and found this
(Warcraftlogs) reports/ChxcyrRYAadqm1v4#fight=17&type=healing
Can't post links yet
Chinese disc 330k hps on Elerethe Mythic with pure Shadow Conveant spam. Would like to see some comments about this gameplay (now that we have a log to dig in) vs the standard one

Shadow Covenant's healing absorb makes it a terrible choice for actual healing, but pretty nice for padding meters. I advocate for play-styles that help you be beneficial to your raid, not hurt it.

Don't spec into SC under any circumstance... it's just not an effective heal.

[tuxie]

Oh, I don't know, how about you start by deducting the healing absorb that's 50% of the healing done value?

It's like people don't even read their own spell and talent tooltips before running away with their new next-level "playstyles".

Damn, so salty lol
I'm curious about this, it can be bad / worse but it is viable since mythic groups use it and this guy was on top of warcraft logs chart for disc. Just opening it for some debate bro chill

[MendUS]

I tried to raid as disc today and it was fun , i really like the mass pwr/lw combo , i managed to do 1-2 on ursoc , i think disc is nice for dungeons too , im doing like 120k dps on a boss and i dont have all dmg traits yet and relics gems and enchants.... healing feels good too , anyway i got some questions:

1. Im really clueless what to do out of this ramp up phase , you say in your guide to use up to 5 attonements , i guess that if the damage is insignificant you use none? under what circumstances do you consider to use attonement on a target? i mean how much health% etc? do you ever use it at a top health target?


2. Can i simply use shadowmend to spot heal instead of this 5 attonement thing? a lower guild will not really buy into this theory , yes a top guild will understand your role and theory but a not so top guild will not even consider to think how you are supposed to play , they will expect from you to keep people alive and if you dont you will get blamed for it and be replaced by a paladin or a shaman , i mean shadowmending is more simple and usually gets the job done , is it so much worse than the 5 attonement style?


3. How do you choose the targets you radiance? i guess it makes sense to use it on people who require some healing but what if everyone is top health? do you randomly radiance different people? do you notice where they stand?


4. How do you swap targets during an encounter with adds like il nygoth or cenarius? do you tab? do you assist someone? do you have macros to share about this specific thing?


5. What addon do you use to detect those major incoming aoe phases 10 seconds earlier? (i think you answered that but i didnt understand)

1. It depends on the encounter. We don't always need to be casting to be effective. If it's an encounter like Cenarius or Dragons, you can keep out 5-6 Atonement's and be fairly effective. If it's an encounter like Renferal sometimes just 2-3 Atonements (2 on tanks) is effective. You just need to read the damage patterns and figure out what would be most effective for you and your group.

2. No. Shadow Mend is a mana hog and we need all of our mana for healing during burst phases. There are certain healers that are good at certain things, it's always kind of been this way. Disc, in its current form, is a raid healer during major AoE. You can spot heal, but you're not as effective as a Holy Priest or Paladin is in doing that. If your guild needs a spot healer, go Holy. Otherwise, I'd talk to them about what your role is and make them adjust the healing strategy around that. We should heal boss AoE for ~70% of our healing, and ~30% coming from Atonement during downtime.

3. I cast alternating on range / melee players if I can help it. Otherwise I just target someone who doesn't have Atonement already. Don't spam it, just cast and wait to see who gets the buff, then find someone who doesn't have it and cast again.

4. I swap targets, but it's not always necessary to do so. If you're struggling with just the healing rotation, I'd recommend to keep the boss targeted and just focus on healing. Once you get more comfortable, just clicking the mob and DPSing using your DPS spells is fine; I don't do anything fancy here.

5. It's WeakAuras. You'd need to import my WeakAura string from the guide after installing it and go from there.

[Yunzi]

How much is Leech worth? I have some on my gear and it does ok on the meters, but it's difficult to calculate it's exact value.

[tuxie]

Shadow Covenant's healing absorb makes it a terrible choice for actual healing, but pretty nice for padding meters. I advocate for play-styles that help you be beneficial to your raid, not hurt it.

Don't spec into SC under any circumstance... it's just not an effective heal.

Thanks for the answer again mend
I do agree with the point, it just made me scratch my head if I was not seeing something or if their group has some weird / cheese strategy to make it be worth.

[Vampiregenesis]

1. It depends on the encounter. We don't always need to be casting to be effective. If it's an encounter like Cenarius or Dragons, you can keep out 5-6 Atonement's and be fairly effective. If it's an encounter like Renferal sometimes just 2-3 Atonements (2 on tanks) is effective. You just need to read the damage patterns and figure out what would be most effective for you and your group.

2. No. Shadow Mend is a mana hog and we need all of our mana for healing during burst phases. There are certain healers that are good at certain things, it's always kind of been this way. Disc, in its current form, is a raid healer during major AoE. You can spot heal, but you're not as effective as a Holy Priest or Paladin is in doing that. If your guild needs a spot healer, go Holy. Otherwise, I'd talk to them about what your role is and make them adjust the healing strategy around that. We should heal boss AoE for ~70% of our healing, and ~30% coming from Atonement during downtime.

3. I cast alternating on range / melee players if I can help it. Otherwise I just target someone who doesn't have Atonement already. Don't spam it, just cast and wait to see who gets the buff, then find someone who doesn't have it and cast again.

1. so it sounds like you precast them based on predictive damage? dont you wait for someone to take damage in order to cast them to that target? if you see someone with 60% hp , how do you react to it if you have 5 attonements up? do you let another healer handle it?

2. You keep mentioning holy priest as a spot healer and it is true that holy has very strong spot healing but holy has great aoe healing too with sanctify,divine hymn and prayer plus it can use circle , from my experience so far as holy i have only been a raid healer and not a tank healer , do you think this is not optimal role for holy? are there guilds out there who use holy exclusively for tank healing and not as a prayer of healing bot?


I was watching today a video from disc pov on a cenarius mythic kill , the guy literally spamed radiance for almost the whole fight , im not sure how he managed to do that , the mana you lose is insane.

[MendUS]

1. so it sounds like you precast them based on predictive damage? dont you wait for someone to take damage in order to cast them to that target? if you see someone with 60% hp , how do you react to it if you have 5 attonements up? do you let another healer handle it?

2. You keep mentioning holy priest as a spot healer and it is true that holy has very strong spot healing but holy has great aoe healing too with sanctify,divine hymn and prayer plus it can use circle , from my experience so far as holy i have only been a raid healer and not a tank healer , do you think this is not optimal role for holy? are there guilds out there who use holy exclusively for tank healing and not as a prayer of healing bot?


I was watching today a video from disc pov on a cenarius mythic kill , the guy literally spamed radiance for almost the whole fight , im not sure how he managed to do that , the mana you lose is insane.

The person you watched probably did have Innervate from a boomkin a few times a fight; that's not always an option though.

Holy isn't so much a tank healer as much as a spot healer. They should be using Flash Heal and Serenity almost exclusively. Holy *can* heal the raid, but it's not as effective as Disc, just like Disc *can* spot heal using Shadow Mend, but it's just not as good as Holy.

[Yunzi]

1. so it sounds like you precast them based on predictive damage? dont you wait for someone to take damage in order to cast them to that target? if you see someone with 60% hp , how do you react to it if you have 5 attonements up? do you let another healer handle it?

It depends on who you ask. A World 100th mythic raider just lets the other healers handle it. If you don't have the luxury of having such good healers in your raid, you're more inclined to spot heal players as they have less and less health. And there's another factor - Shadow Mend is not a good spell if the player takes no other external damage for the next 10 seconds - so there's a lot more value in Shadowmending someone if he has a damage debuff (such as Nythendra's Rot) or is otherwise expected to take near-future damage.

When you have a low number of atonements out and the player isn't in danger of dying, Plea is a nice way to give him an immediate health boost which can then be followed up by Smite and/or Penance.

I was watching today a video from disc pov on a cenarius mythic kill , the guy literally spamed radiance for almost the whole fight , im not sure how he managed to do that , the mana you lose is insane.

You don't lose any mana at all if you're innervated or symbol of hoped. Disc priests privileged enough to get one of them each fight can (ideally) spend those 10 seconds casting PWR. For a typical Disc he can cast 5 PWRs in 10 seconds. This saves (unmodified) 357,500 mana, or 32.5% of our entire mana bar.

So 2 per fight gives an extra 715,000 mana, and 3 an extra 1,072,500 - nearly an entire extra mana bar.

It's very possible, especially on shorter fights, to have enough innervates/SoHs to never have to cast any other atonement applicators besides PWR. This is, needless to say, incredibly advantageous for having high HPS.

But pretend I never said that - according to many (especially those at the top of the chart) it's all about skill at the top of the chart...

[PosPosPos]

Damn, so salty lol
I'm curious about this, it can be bad / worse but it is viable since mythic groups use it and this guy was on top of warcraft logs chart for disc. Just opening it for some debate bro chill

You basically admitted you can't read your spell tooltips in game, so /slowclap.

[Vampiregenesis]

The person you watched probably did have Innervate from a boomkin a few times a fight; that's not always an option though.

Holy isn't so much a tank healer as much as a spot healer. They should be using Flash Heal and Serenity almost exclusively. Holy *can* heal the raid, but it's not as effective as Disc, just like Disc *can* spot heal using Shadow Mend, but it's just not as good as Holy.

Now this is new to me , do you prefer to flash heal over prayer on a fight like cenarius,nythedra or xavius? well sanctify is way too strong to ignore but what about prayer of healing? do you think its not worth it compare to flash heal even if it hits 5 targets? until yesterday holy priests spammed prayer , is the meta different now?

[MendUS]

Now this is new to me , do you prefer to flash heal over prayer on a fight like cenarius,nythedra or xavius? well sanctify is way too strong to ignore but what about prayer of healing? do you think its not worth it compare to flash heal even if it hits 5 targets? until yesterday holy priests spammed prayer , is the meta different now?

Eh, I don't raid as holy and we don't have a holy priest, so maybe I shouldn't pontificate on holy priest things. I'd check the H2P discord holy channel to make sure.

[tuxie]

You basically admitted you can't read your spell tooltips in game, so /slowclap.

Lol, I guess you still didn't understand my point and I'll not spend more time with a virtual half-brained troll Will just put you on the ignore list. Cya buddy!

[Vampiregenesis]

Mr robot seems to disagree with stats when it comes to disc , it overvalues haste as shadow but it doesnt treat haste very highly as disc , here is the proof https://gyazo.com/26695123e9058dd863d35087c9a11a35 , the stats it gives as holy and shadow look strange but make sense , i dont understand why suddenly overvalues crit and mastery as disc , in a past optimizer it prefered haste as disc , did something change? or maybe did i do something wrong?

It also recommend satyr as holy priest which is really strange but i guess it makes sense because satyr does shit ton of dmg , on my hunter it does like 4% of my total damage therefore it would help , the values it gives make tons of sense as shadow and holy and i had success in the past with this addon , it improved my hps as holy.

I really cant explain the values for disc based on what i saw here.