Aimed Shot nerf

[Sarevokcz]

Almost every fight has adds.

just because fight has adds, doesnt mean MM excels at it, see Cenarius.

And I might agree with spread aoe being niche, if it was baseline, which it is not, having one niche, that is forced on you by making half your talents mandatory or otherwise be shit tier spec is wrong and the second they decide to redesign some of those talents (and I wouldnt be surprised if sidewinders will see redesign), the spec just crumbles to dust

[Cque]

In all fairness pure dps classes used to have an aoe spec and a single target spec, for example mages used to play fire for aoe and arcane for single, rogues played combat for aoe and one of the other two specs for single. The problem here is not MM its the fact that as a hunter you only have one raiding spec which is MM, BM needs a bit more love on single target and that should automatically fix our issues.

On a side note Fire mages/Demon hunters/Enhancement shamans and some other classes/specs have strong overall performance so I'm hesitant to accept any argument that we as MM hunters have good cleave hence we deserve single target nerfs, and if you want to go into further discussions about EN encounters remember that most of them change from NM and HC when you go to Mythic like Il'gynoth for example.

[Tehterokkar]

just because fight has adds, doesnt mean MM excels at it, see Cenarius.

And I might agree with spread aoe being niche, if it was baseline, which it is not, having one niche, that is forced on you by making half your talents mandatory or otherwise be shit tier spec is wrong and the second they decide to redesign some of those talents (and I wouldnt be surprised if sidewinders will see redesign), the spec just crumbles to dust

MM will do 3-4 times more DPS on wisps than any other class. If you don't think that is a strong niche, then I don't know what is.

Also on Cenarius you need burst DPS, again at which MM excels. Overall DPS between waves is not important, and in last phase MM will again do phenomenal DPS thanks to Bullseye.

[Deleted]

MM will do 3-4 times more DPS on wisps than any other class. If you don't think that is a strong niche, then I don't know what is.

Also on Cenarius you need burst DPS, again at which MM excels. Overall DPS between waves is not important, and in last phase MM will again do phenomenal DPS thanks to Bullseye.

Which raider doesnt know the epic "wisp" niche. Or that epic and almost not abused shadow priest doing supreme single target dps niche. Just a niche class Luckily all guilds stack up to 5 MM hunters to clear those wisps! Oh wait... they dont, cuz they dont give a fuck Shadow priests on the other hand.. ah well. HUNTERS SO GOOD AT RANGE 4+ target CLEAVE!!!

[Dracodraco]

@Draco Why does Mages always get to be top - AOE and ST? I don't remember a single tier where they were "lower than average".

IMO Blizzard dosen't care about Hunters they even forgot to post some of our changes in patch notes.

They were bad in Highmaul. They were bad in T11. But yea, mages consistently do well. Why they get to do that? Who knows, really. That's not an argument for keeping hunters strong in all niches; That's an argument for not buffing mages to the sky every tier. They're an outlier, not the norm.

Which raider doesnt know the epic "wisp" niche. Or that epic and almost not abused shadow priest doing supreme single target dps niche. Just a niche class Luckily all guilds stack up to 5 MM hunters to clear those wisps! Oh wait... they dont, cuz they dont give a fuck Shadow priests on the other hand.. ah well. HUNTERS SO GOOD AT RANGE 4+ target CLEAVE!!!

First kill setups on Cenarius (only hard boss this tier):

Exorsus: 2 hunters, 3 spriests.
Method: 4 hunters, 2 spriests.
Serenity: 3 hunters, 3 spriests.
From scratch: 2 hunters, 2 spriests.
Danish Terrace: 2 hunters, 2 spriests.
Set sail for fail: 3 hunters, 1 spriest.
Fatsharkyes: 2 hunters, 1 spriest.
Scrubbusters: 3 hunters, 1 spriest.
Limit: 2 hunters, 2 spriests.
Midwinter: 4 hunters, 1 spriest.
Pieces: 2 hunters, 3 spriests.
Entropy: 2 hunters, 0 spriests.
Nova: 2 hunters, 3 spriests.
Prestige gaming: 3 hunters, 2 spriests.
Prime: 3 hunters, 1 spriest.
Easy: 2 hunters, 1 spriest.
Øblox(russian): 2 hunters, 1 spriest.
Nolltvåtre: 3 hunters, 2 spriests.
Honestly: 3 hunters, 1 spriest.

That's 19 out of the top 20, as #7 doesn't have kill-setup recorded on wowprogress.
Take a count. That's 49 hunters and 32 shadow priests over the top 20; if you're being sat over shadow priests for their next-to-useless damage on Cenarius (remember, they don't go nuclear until they press STM, and they don't press STM untill you get towards the last phase of the fight - the easiest part of the encounter), just because they do a LOT of it, that's an issue with your raidleader. Not with the class. Guilds that actually have a clue about what is good for an encounter clearly aren't stacking shadow priests compared to hunters.

Likewise, it's been said Blizzard wants to change shadow in some way to make them not as dominating, but it's something they can't just blanket nerf without literally destroying the class, so it's being left as it is for the moment while they work on a proper rebalancing. You're essentially complaining about dead-men-walking AND you are wrong. That's neat.

[Deleted]

They were bad in Highmaul. They were bad in T11. But yea, mages consistently do well. Why they get to do that? Who knows, really. That's not an argument for keeping hunters strong in all niches; That's an argument for not buffing mages to the sky every tier. They're an outlier, not the norm.




First kill setups on Cenarius (only hard boss this tier):

Exorsus: 2 hunters, 3 spriests.
Method: 4 hunters, 2 spriests.
Serenity: 3 hunters, 3 spriests.
From scratch: 2 hunters, 2 spriests.
Danish Terrace: 2 hunters, 2 spriests.
Set sail for fail: 3 hunters, 1 spriest.
Fatsharkyes: 2 hunters, 1 spriest.
Scrubbusters: 3 hunters, 1 spriest.
Limit: 2 hunters, 2 spriests.
Midwinter: 4 hunters, 1 spriest.
Pieces: 2 hunters, 3 spriests.
Entropy: 2 hunters, 0 spriests.
Nova: 2 hunters, 3 spriests.
Prestige gaming: 3 hunters, 2 spriests.
Prime: 3 hunters, 1 spriest.
Easy: 2 hunters, 1 spriest.
Øblox(russian): 2 hunters, 1 spriest.
Nolltvåtre: 3 hunters, 2 spriests.
Honestly: 3 hunters, 1 spriest.

That's 19 out of the top 20, as #7 doesn't have kill-setup recorded on wowprogress.
Take a count. That's 49 hunters and 32 shadow priests over the top 20; if you're being sat over shadow priests for their next-to-useless damage on Cenarius (remember, they don't go nuclear until they press STM, and they don't press STM untill you get towards the last phase of the fight - the easiest part of the encounter), just because they do a LOT of it, that's an issue with your raidleader. Not with the class. Guilds that actually have a clue about what is good for an encounter clearly aren't stacking shadow priests compared to hunters.

Likewise, it's been said Blizzard wants to change shadow in some way to make them not as dominating, but it's something they can't just blanket nerf without literally destroying the class, so it's being left as it is for the moment while they work on a proper rebalancing. You're essentially complaining about dead-men-walking AND you are wrong. That's neat.

you missed the point is. The point is:

You might stack hunters for ONE encounter. But you want to stack certain other classes for ALL other encounters.

[Deleted]

Which raider doesnt know the epic "wisp" niche. Or that epic and almost not abused shadow priest doing supreme single target dps niche. Just a niche class Luckily all guilds stack up to 5 MM hunters to clear those wisps! Oh wait... they dont, cuz they dont give a fuck Shadow priests on the other hand.. ah well. HUNTERS SO GOOD AT RANGE 4+ target CLEAVE!!!

I presume you're not a Mythic progression raider and your knowledge of this encounter is reading farm logs from guilds in 885 ilvl.
If you had been progressing Cenarius week 1, where the majority of your raid was 866 ilvl, and the Wisp transition was easily the most dangerous part of the fight, that having MM Hunters do this was essential to killing the boss. Further to that, we benched a Shadow Priest on this fight as the significant dps check existed before the boss was in execute range

[Dracodraco]

you missed the point is. The point is:

You might stack hunters for ONE encounter. But you want to stack certain other classes for ALL other encounters.

If that's what you actually believe then you don't really have a clue. I picked Cenarius because he was the hardest fight this tier, and because that's one that was mentioned as hunters being "bad" at. Every single one of Method's first kills included all four hunters. Farm output where some classes can cheese shit =/= being useful during progress. The sooner you figure out how you should be playing and giving out raid spots, the sooner you'll realise how good of a spot hunters are actually in.

[Deleted]

If that's what you actually believe then you don't really have a clue. I picked Cenarius because he was the hardest fight this tier, and because that's one that was mentioned as hunters being "bad" at. Every single one of Method's first kills included all four hunters. Farm output where some classes can cheese shit =/= being useful during progress. The sooner you figure out how you should be playing and giving out raid spots, the sooner you'll realise how good of a spot hunters are actually in.

the last time we argued you agreed with me after 3 months. I assume it will be same this year. The smiley emotes are terrible.

[Dracodraco]

the last time we argued you agreed with me after 3 months. I assume it will be same this year. The smiley emotes are terrible.

I sincerely doubt it, considering we're talking about progress-usefulness this time, and not overall output. Things change as gear goes up; Gear is shit during progress. Less chance of anything observed so far changing drastically.

[ehxy]

You know what hunter plays like? A ranged demonhunter.

You have to play so goddamn careful and contained for 80% of the time and then when you get to the boss where you don't have to move constantly it's like holy crap I'm FREE YOU GET A BARRAGE, YOU GET A BARRAGE, YOU GET A SIDEWINDER and YOU GET A SIDEWINDER. Then blah back to oh fuck I hope to fuck I don't pull something or else people are going to go ape shit on me on discord.

[Dracodraco]

You know what hunter plays like? A ranged demonhunter.

You have to play so goddamn careful and contained for 80% of the time and then when you get to the boss where you don't have to move constantly it's like holy crap I'm FREE YOU GET A BARRAGE, YOU GET A BARRAGE, YOU GET A SIDEWINDER and YOU GET A SIDEWINDER. Then blah back to oh fuck I hope to fuck I don't pull something or else people are going to go ape shit on me on discord.

If you're talking about mythic dungeons, do bigger pulls. You never really need to hold back as a hunter if you know what you're doing. Likewise, whenever trueshot is up, tell your tank and then obliterate 2-3 packs at once; Cooldowns as short as trueshot aren't just for bosses.

[Measure]

Idk what you guys are smoking when you say you only want to stack hunters on one encounter. Mythic dragons are great for hunter dps as well as ilgy, i haven't gotten to mythic xavius yet but i'd assume we're still good at killing horrors.

[moonrakerx]

How are you guys dealing with the wisps on 2nd wave of cenarius...we are single targeting them down and it's very inefficient imo but almost any cleave is considered "padding". Had the same problem on ilgynoth from simply trying to cleave all the tentacles. Marked shot is hitting some ichors and I'm "padding". These are progress attempts and a first sloppy kill on ilgynoth so tensions are high etc, but it's extremely frustrating when people nonchalantly use the term padding like I'm just spraying ichors etc with barrage when they are all sub 10%.

[Dracodraco]

How are you guys dealing with the wisps on 2nd wave of cenarius...we are single targeting them down and it's very inefficient imo but almost any cleave is considered "padding". Had the same problem on ilgynoth from simply trying to cleave all the tentacles. Marked shot is hitting some ichors and I'm "padding". These are progress attempts and a first sloppy kill on ilgynoth so tensions are high etc, but it's extremely frustrating when people nonchalantly use the term padding like I'm just spraying ichors etc with barrage when they are all sub 10%.

If you're getting two sets of wisps, you're using 5 healers. In that case, your aim should be to instantly smash the wisps as quickly as possible and just cooldown through it all. What we did was:

On pull (during ancient stomps+thorns): Spirit link, Barrier, Tranq (2 min for resto druids).
First wisps: Healing tide, Devo, Lights wrath.
Second wisps: Tranq, Commanding shout, another Devo (we had 2x pally 1x disc 1x sham 1x druid).

A long with healers spreading their personal throughput between the two explosions (AG, wings, power infusion etc).

We bloodlusted double sister wave to kill one before second scorned touch + give healers a chance to catch up on damage through the haste.


This is what wisp dmg looked like on the first kill on second wave:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...7&end=11789554

As you can see, they live for a total of 14 seconds (with the first 4 dying in 10 or less, one spawned outside of cleave range). A hunter popping trueshot for that can pretty much carry the entire wisp-wave damage, if you've got two hunters you won't really need help (people switched for us anyway, so we saved 1x trueshot for sisters instead of blowing both on wisps).