Talent revamp - Lets craft ideas!

[Kilraq]

TL/DR at end. Use tags to find areas to avoid walls of text.

- Introduction --


Unless your a Hunter sitting under a rock waiting for prey the last two weeks (possible) you know a recently Blue post talked about how they would like to do a Talent tree redo for Hunters. As such lets have some fun and make some balanced changes to bring the other talent choices in line.

Remember, giving actual different game styles to each spec is the goal here, not to make us uber gods of dps. (Though that can be fun too).

I will start with the Survival Tree because it what I know best this expansion. Feel free to add your own for MM/BM or alternatives for Survival.


-- Level 15 Talents. --

Animal Instincts - This just got a nice revamp in the coming patch and I overall really like what they did here. I wouldn't change a thing from what they propose from it, except maybe up the change of it occurring. The random element on what gets "the bonus" is already enough RNG as is.

Throwing Axes - I would actually redesign this talent alot. Lets be honest, NO ONE uses Hatchets. If I was blizzard I would make this baseline for Survival Hunters (charges included) and then make this talent do something extra to the throwing axes. For example what if the hatchets could be poisoned and apply serpents sting? Or caused a bleed effect. Or acted as a ranged wing clip? This would make having charges for the ability make sense and would give them a good reason to include in your rotation.

Way of the Mok'Nathal - I honestly feel this is our current "best" talent atm and is the baseline by which the others need to be buffed. With the change coming to raptor strike at least this now won't feel like a waste to apply early on. The only thing i would do here would be to extend the time by which the buff lasts. In my own experiences it can be very hard to keep close to units, particularly in raid encounters. Applying another raptor strike is often not what we need to do first when running back (obviously harpoon can't always be available.) If they didn't want to extend the timer maybe allow any tick of lacerate to give you a 25% chance to keep the buff running.


-- Level 30 Talents -- The traps

As I have stated in another post I am FIRM believer in giving all Hunters traps again. BUT I believe in making those trap choices specialized and having Survival in particular have NASTY traps. That is what my redesign for this tier would do. Add the nasty.

Caltrops - I would make this trap baseline for Survival, with the current tar trap going to BM (Old frost design to MM). With caltrops being baseline for survival, The difference here would now be an new element to this trap, a chance to increase any active bleed effect on a unit for the duration the target is in the trap. If Lacerate is up and your using Mok'nathal this suddenly becomes a very interesting choice.

Improved Traps - This is the current baseline choice for Survival Hunters. I really do not see a need to change this talent atm because it already a very powerful choice, particularly with our strong explosive trap.

Steel Trap - I would again have made this trap the new baseline for Survival (Wyvern sting to BM and Ice Trap to MM). To add the nasty into the trap I would make it so that when the cooldown expired that it exploded. It would do the remainder timer in damage or increase the amount of the damage while CCed. Optionally instead of a new damage element it could do a knockback to all units within 5 yards of the target, ala Sticky Bomb.


-- Level 45 Talents --

I will be honest here, this the area that needs the most work. I HATE all of our current choices, without question. I sadly do not know what to replace them with. Losing our old cheetah hurt. While I don't mind the desire to put a COOLDOWN on cheetah, a 3 minute cooldown is UTTER torture and should be 1 minute, at max. Particularly with how movement intensive some of the raids/dungeons mechanics can be. That said I do NOT know what you could do to change them. Therefore I ask that someone else brainstorm a better idea for these three. Particularly someone who is GOOD at pvp.


-- Level 60 Talents -- The boring choice area

A Murder of Crows- A great ability but I've always wondered WHY this wasn't a baseline ability for BM. If were talking about class fantasy it sure seems to fit them better than Survival. That said it isn't a BAD talent. I'd up the damage a little bit and call this fine. It is already a fine choice for the attentively aware player who can weave it in at low places.

Mortal Wounds- Awww, the boring choice and the one that is completely invalidated by Snake Hunter. I would instead change this talent to focus on Serpent sting (I would really like to see a completely different style for Survival, one based on bleeds and one on Serpent sting). Call it "Bite of Hakkar" (this part was missing whops). Bite of Hakkar would apply a life leeching debuff to the target when Lacerate/Raptor Strike/throwing Axes is applied. This debuff heals the hunter for x amount of the damage dealt to the target while the debuff is active.

Snake Hunter - With out current extreme focus on Mongoose Bite this talent is one of the most powerful of all our current choices. It is BY FAR the best choice atm and does not need buffing in any way. The only thing i would do is just a quality of life change where you cant use this ability if you already have a mongoose charge available.


-- Level 75 Talents -- I honestly like this tier atm. But that is only because the choice is rather pointless so any choice doesn't really matter.

Sticky Bomb - An AoE knockback with a timer centered on your target. /facepalm. Take away the timer and we might be talking. As it stands the timer removals all real tactical use from this talent.

Ranger's Net - The current best PvP choice and depending on your attentive ability the the best PvE choice too. Keeping someone netted is a lot of fun. For many this is the default choice.

Camouflage - Why WHY is this not baseline? I really do not understand it. It was such a big deal when it was introduced. You want to make this talent choice interesting? Make Camo baseline and give special perks for when you come out after. I don't suggest a dmg increase but maybe a short cheetah burst, an AoE suprise roar that lowers damage taken for x seconds, something!


-- Level 90 Talents --

Butchery - With the big damage increase to our baseline and this talent I don't think much needs to be done here. Maybe in line with my previous idea lets have this talent extend bleed timers. (rogues would LOVE us).

Dragonsfire Grenade - THIS IS the current best choice. It is solid damage and does some extra AoE when you want it. No real loss to be found here. This is the baseline the others measure up to.

Serpent Sting - Aww SS how we miss your lovely dot. I am hesistant to say this needs a redesign. Let us see how the new and improved carve and raptor strike eek out. I WOULD say to make this more attractive drop the length of the serpent sting dot but keep the damage the same, since in AoE situations most mobs are dying to quickly for all the damage to apply.


-- Level 100 talents - The WTF where are my cool choices time.

Spitting Cobra - Again, if were talking class fantasy WHY is this under Survival? *shrugs* You want to fix this talent, do the specialization based on bleed or poison I've been mentioning. The serpent spits out large pools of poisons on the ground. This increases the damage done to anyone already under the effect of serpent sting (or bite of Hakkar) by x percent. Boom, interesting talent choice.

Expert Trapper - Already our baseline choice. Even with the trap changes I suggested earlier no need to change most of this talent. Nothing to be done here.

Aspect of the Beast - Holy crap did they screw the pooch here. As a survival hunter we are currently using Tenacity pets due to the extra mongoose procing chance from Thunderstomp. IF they don't change that proc chance to a pets base attacks then they can't really fix this talent as it is. IF we redesigned it however I would have it act like a trinket would, where your pets unique abilities gave you a bonus boost to a rotation secondary stat. Verst, Haste, Crit. (Mastery is soooo terrible I can't even begin to describe how much they failed there.)

--TL/DR --

The talent system sucks, but it is a symptom of much larger problems, with the most glaring issue being Mastery. If they want to make the talent choices fun why not make builds that force you to choose between applying bleeds or poisons. You can vary these effects up enough so it doesn't feel like playing a warrior or a rogue. We are men/woman on the HUNT afterall. We chase our chosen prey. I want others to FEAR us.

Take a look and use the short -- code -- portions to look where you will. I am curious what talent ideas you guys might be able to come up with. What themes would you like to see us built around?

[DeicideUH]

Well, my opinion:

Pets: Give one special skill to each pet that doesn't have it. Distribute the mortal wounds, slow, damage reduction shield and so on to more pets, so each pet has something extra (also, it helps with Survival's Mastery).

-------------- SURVIVAL --------------
Baseline Changes:
- Raptor Strike cost reduced to 15 focus.
- Make Camouflage baseline
- Aspect of the Cheetah baseline CD reduced to 90 seconds.
- Aspect of the Turtle: Replaced with Aspect of the Fox: When activated, you have a 50% chance to evade attacks for 5 seconds. 2-minute CD.

Level 15
Animal Instincts: No changes (7.1 version).
Throwing Axes: Make them replace Raptor Strike. Abilities based on Raptor Strike (like Serpent Sting or the healing artifact trait) now proc off Throwing Axes.
Mok'nathal Tactics: Increase duration to 10 seconds.

Level 30
Murder of Crows: Moved up to level 100, in place of Spitting Cobra. Replaced with Spirit of Mongoose: Your Mongoose bites now stack up to 4.
Mortal Wounds: In addition to current effect, Mongoose Bite now extends Lacerate's duration on the target by 2 seconds (idea is to extend uptime of Lacerate, don't needing to cast it during Mongoose Fury phases).
Snake Hunter: Becomes a passive. Using Aspect of the Eagle now gives 3 stacks of Mongoose Bite.

Level 45:
All talents in this row are replaced. New ones:
Disengage: You gain Disengage as a new skill. Disengage also removes roots and other movement-penalty effects when cast.
Persistent Hunter: Harpoon now removes roots and other movement-penalty effects, and has its CD reduced to 16 seconds.
Master's Command: Same as PvP talent. You call your pet, removing all movement-penalties from it and your target, and making both immune to them for 4 seconds. 45s CD.

Level 60:
No changes.

Level 75:
No changes.

Level 90:
No changes to Ranger's Net.
Sticky Bomb: Take away the timer.
Aspect of the Predator: Camouflage can now be cast in combat. When cast in combat, Camouflage's duration is reduced to 6 seconds and it cannot be broken by damage taken, but its CD is increased to 3 minutes. The effect is removed by attacking or causing damage other than dots placed before the ability was activated.

Level 100
Spitting Cobra: Removed and replaced by A Murder of Crows.
Expert Trapper: No changes.
Aspect of the Beast: Give the DoT damage to all pet specs, in addition to other spec effects. For Ferocity pets, the additional effect is to improve chance of Flanking Strike to add a Mongoose Bite charge, making it thrice the normal chance defined by Mastery.

----------------------------

That's it. I will post an alternative MM hunter later, when I have time.

[Kuhnta]

Survival Hunter

Throwing Axes replaces Raptor Strike. Just allowing Raptor Strike to be even 20-30 yard "spammable" ability isn't really dps increase, but a highly situational/pvp talent.
Way of the Mok'Nathal also triggers from Carve/Butchery
Snake HunterI agree with DeicideUH, let it be a passive amp to Aspect of the Eagle.
Mortal Wounds I like DeicideUH idea of extending duration of Lacerate with Mongoose Bite
Farstrider replaced with turning Harpoon into a Death grip. Another situational/pvp ability.
Dash lowers the cooldown of Aspect of the cheetah by 50%, stackable with both the artifact ability and pvp talent.
Sticky Bomb replace with Flash bang, single target stun.
Camouflage baseline.
Butchery basically an ability stolen from Feral Druids, might as well lower the focus cost just like Brutal Slash.
Serpent String baseline.
Spitting Cobra remove the focus regen and increase the damage by quite a bit.
Aspect of the Beast increase the bleed damage by quite a bit.

Mastery: Hunting Companion If we must keep this one, allow pets auto attacks to trigger it as well. I kind of feel like even this would not make mastery an attractive stat.

Pvp wise, I would like to see a legit defensive cooldown.
Comparing Aspect of the Turtle to similar cooldowns.
Aspect of the Turtle.
Pros: Immune to all incoming attacks, 30% damage reduction.
Cons: Cannot attack, vulnerable to aoe, aoe cc, and dots already applied.

Paladins Divine shield
Pros: Immune to all attacks, immune to all CC, dispells debuffs, can attack, and can heal.
Cons: Longer CD

Mage Ice Block
Pros: Immune to all damage, immune to all CC, and dispells debuffs.
Cons: Can't move and can't attack.

While Turtle works well for marksmen and beast master, for allowing you to survive longer to keep getting distance, it doesn't work for Survival. Either steal another ability from Feral druids, via Survival Instinct, or create one unique to survival. Using a similar mechanic as aspect of the cheetah. Burst damage reduction of 70% for 3 seconds then a 30% damage reduction for 6 seconds.

Marksmen
My main problem with marksmen is that I am not sure what the "fantasy" is suppose to be. With a name like marksmen, you would expect the sniper class, but it seems to be more ....welll. Remember the scene in 300 where the Spartans have to shield up to prepare for a rain of arrows? Imagine all those arrows came from one archer.

Marksmen could have been left alone from WOD and allowing some old range survival abilities be chosen via talents. Instead, you have reincarnations of wonderful abilities such as Black Arrow and Explosive shots... which are shadows of their former selves.

Black Arrows remove the pet from the spell and increase the dot damage.
Explosive Shot a 1.5 second dot that ticks every 0.5 seconds, replaces aim shot.
Lone Wolf baseline.
Steady Focus reduced down to 2 Arcane Shots/Multishots
Careful Aim Increased critical strike chance while target is above 80% health. Aim Shot(Explosive shot) critical hits apply a dot of 30% damage.

The level 100 tier needs a complete revamp.
Like a removal a Sidewinder and Piercing shot reworked to be a reverse execute (above 80%).

Would just imagine that Markmens should be a hard hitting single attack focused specc that hits harder when mops are higher health.

Beast Master
Not really sure what to do with this specc. While it feels like it is in a good place, can get a little dull overtime/long fights.

[CParker1987]

The only thing I would say for Beast Mastery is do some type of focus generating ability. Without this the spec is slow